Posted: 10/23/2005 12:28 AM
Post subject: Frame advance and how it changed 2D timeattacks, in my POV
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nesrocks
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Location: Rio, Brazil
I think timeattacks have been losing some of their magic. I'm barely impressed anymore by the movies, and more by tricks i didn't know about. Its just a show of tricks now. Finishing as fast as possible has lost it's magic. I used to be impressed at the gameplay, because the games weren't played on such a low-level as frame advance. But now, speed or precision aren't impressive, they are simply mandatory. That's where n64 or any other 3d TAS comes in. I don't think frame advance will do much of the trick there. It's hard to foresee the 3D movement when the emulator is paused, i think it feels better to timeattack it in slow-mo with lots of save-states, and when n64 TASes start to pop-up i'll be in awe again.
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 10/23/2005 12:54 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Posts: 5712
So they're more magical when they're done sloppily?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 10/23/2005 12:55 AM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1416)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
Perhaps more "human", and thus more easily relatable. Remember, "the secret is in the imperfections."
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 10/23/2005 12:56 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Joined: 5/29/2004
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In my opinion we just settle for less less often now.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 10/23/2005 1:03 AM
(Edited: 10/23/2005 1:08 AM)
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1416)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster.]
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 10/23/2005 1:06 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Well, it could be that all the movies that get submitted now are either stupid improvements to movies that have already been made or movies of games that hardly anybody's played
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 10/23/2005 1:08 AM
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nifboy
Former player
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375
Yeah, it's not so much "Playing the game slowly" anymore as it is "inputting buttons frame by frame" now.
Posted: 10/23/2005 1:17 AM
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Boco
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Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
I've always been more interested in the technical demonstration / theoretical perfection side anyway. After all, if I want demonstrations of skill, I can watch videos at SDA or wherever.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Posted: 10/23/2005 3:24 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Frame advance had nothing to do with it, as soon as we had the 60 fps patch for Famtasia, TASs could be made with the maximum level of precision. Frame advance doesn't let you be any more precise than 5% speed. Even without the 60 fps patch, you could put whatever input you want into the fmv file, just with some limits, and the n00biest of SMB players could have played accurately enough to make a 5:08 TAS if they wanted to. If you were ever impressed by the gameplay skill at all, then you didn't understand what TASing is about. It was always just about the tricks and strategies.
Posted: 10/23/2005 3:36 AM
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nesrocks
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Location: Rio, Brazil
What i meant is that it takes now less gaming skill and more patience to make a TAS. Which is good and bad. But for me it's less exciting.
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 10/23/2005 3:37 AM
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Phil
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Joined: 3/16/2004
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Location: America, Québec
FODA is depressing :P
Posted: 10/23/2005 4:16 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
What i meant is that it takes now less gaming skill and more patience to make a TAS. Which is good and bad. But for me it's less exciting. I know what you meant, but you're wrong. Making a TAS never took any gaming skill whatsoever. Any random n00b can get the button presses accurate within 1/3 of a second, which is how long each frame lasts at 5% speed, and in the case of the rare person who has really bad timing, all he has to do is make the speed even lower. Even for lazy people who play at 30% speed, the playing quality is gonna be pretty similar between TASs made by good gamers and bad gamers if they both have the same skill at finding tricks and strategies.
Posted: 10/23/2005 4:33 AM
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tool23
Player (80)
Joined: 2/8/2005
Posts: 130
Even though a noob and a great gamer might be able to come up with the same results, i think gaming skills are still really important in TASing. isnt gaming skill just the ability to intuitively know what to do in a certain situation without having to do endless trial and error like Bisqbot? sure, fast reactions are also part of it, but i think good gamers have insights into the game that make them good at TASing even if they are doing it frame by frame (I wouldnt know, however ;) ). i think for really tough games the advantage would add up.
Posted: 10/23/2005 6:01 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Yeah, I suppose you could say gaming skill includes strategy finding skills, but that has nothing to do with my point, which I already made pretty clear. Tricks and strategies have always been what TASing is about. Accuracy and reflexes have never been what TASing is about. The "magic," as Foda called it, was exactly the same before and after frame advance was introduced.
Posted: 10/23/2005 6:09 AM
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FractalFusion
Editor, Expert player (2073)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282
Glitchy TAS of 2013 Gameboy TAS of 2013 PSX TASer of 2010
FODA, I think you would make a good speedrunner. :) If you want to see more "human" runs of games, there are always speedruns to keep you busy.
Posted: 10/23/2005 6:20 AM
Post subject: Re: Frame advance and how it changed 2D timeattacks, in my P
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
NES TAS of 2008 Speedy TAS of 2008 SNES TASer of 2007 TAS of 2007 SNES TAS of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
FODA wrote:
That's where n64 or any other 3d TAS comes in. I don't think frame advance will do much of the trick there.
I see a trend. With 2d timeattacks, as emulator features became more robust, it was easier to come closer to the perfect run. Features like frame advance (or really just being able to control the presses on each frame, whether this or 5% speed) and frame counter. New features are always being brainstormed and implemented - Bisqbot and Frame Search are two examples that come to mind. When TASing fully hits 3d games, I would expect it will evolve in a similar way - new, exciting, and more challenging to make at first, and then as things become more standardized and emulators become more robust, the runs themselves will become more streamlined and seemingly mass-produced.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 10/23/2005 10:48 AM
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nesrocks
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Location: Rio, Brazil
Phil wrote:
FODA is depressing :P
yea, especially after this whole saturday in front of the computer.... -_-
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 10/24/2005 1:48 PM
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nesrocks
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Player (246)
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Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
FractalFusion wrote:
FODA, I think you would make a good speedrunner. :) If you want to see more "human" runs of games, there are always speedruns to keep you busy.
Yea check the speedruns forum here on these boards and you'll see i'm very participative there, i just wish more people would join me. The only reason i'm not sending anything to SDA or TG is that it's so hard to send stuff there, i live in Brazil, ok... My pc can't capture TV signal so i can't record AVI from real play, and i don't wanna send a videotape to USA or whatever just so someone obsoletes my run sooner or later. So i make TASes because that doesn't require "proof" of legitimacy. Use the good rom, click record from power and that's enough. But if i ever submitted anything it'd be for SDA. I don't like TG, i think it's extremelly stupid to simply have the records with no vids. I mean, videogames are toys, not olympics. So i prefer speedrunning for fun and timeattacking seriously.
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 10/24/2005 2:26 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
In my opinion, FODA (and anyone who shares his opinion, including me), is being blinded by the amount of expertise on these boards. Every now and then, a new player submits their first-ever TAS, and while there are exceptions, you can usually see the difference between experienced TAS-makers' and first-time TAS-makers' skills. The tools don't automatically create the result. FODA has also gained experience himself, and from my personal experience, I can tell that it makes the movies a lot less mystifying. Which in turn causes directly the fact that we "settle for less less often now" as BagOfMagicFood said. In medical terms, increased tolerage needs increased doses to gain the same level of excitement. The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.