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Arc
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I'm back thinking about XP macros. I checked the options for the boots/kid. Now I'm looking at Sea Palace options. Current: Maze - Attack 4 (1000) Maze - Attack 5 (2000) Sea - Magic 6 Cancel (2200) Rock - Attack 6 (3000) Rock - Magic 6 Cancel (2200) After looking again at the idea of doing Gooma before Flute, I see: Maze - Attack 4 (1000) Sea - Attack 5 Cancel (2000) *reset to 0* Rock - Attack 5 (2000) Suddenly we have (184+29=) 213 frames. Boss fight changes would be: Gooma - A4 instead of A5 = 8 hits Rebonack II - A4 instead of A5 = 2+2 hits Barba/Volvagia - A4 instead of A6 = 20 hits Thunderbird - A5 instead of A6 = 8 hits 40 hits. This idea is my last shot at having something actually work in the XP macros.
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I've been thinking on that idea for a couple of days. Without going in and checking exactly how long the fights will take, I'll take an educated guess. I don't think that number of hits on those specific bosses will go much over 140 frames. Probably looking at ~1s on Barba, ~.5s on Gooma, and a bit less on Rebo 2 and Tbird. Sounds like a winner to me. Plus, it looks like that idea also potentially cuts 1-2 extra life cancels, which must be done each time a new level is taken. Is that correct?
Arc
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Yeah, I think this way works. I had hoped for an extra Life Cancel, but it ends up as 3 Life Cancels either way. The reason is that the current last crystal is a Cancel, whereas the new way is an Accept. So a Life Cancel becomes forced at Thunderbird. Current: Maze - Attack 4 (1000) [0] Maze - Life 2 Cancel (50) Maze C - Attack 5 (2000) [0] Sea - Life 2 Cancel (50) Sea C- Magic 6 Cancel (2200) Rock - Attack 6 (3000) [0] Rock - Life 2 Cancel (50) Rock C - Magic 6 Cancel (2200) (next is 5000) New: Maze C - Attack 4 (1000) [0] Sea - Life 2 Cancel (50) Sea C - Attack 5 Cancel (2000) [0] Rock - Life 2 Cancel (50) Rock C - Attack 5 (2000) [0] T-Bird - Life 2 Cancel (50) I'm about to start playing. At Death Mountain, I accept that I need to kill the first orange daira and the red one, but I'm not sure about the orange daira at the Hammer. I'm thinking I could try to get a 50 p-bag drop with minimal/no time loss in the Jump Caves and then just try to damage through the daira without going for the kill. I'm still not sure about sword beam. I can wait until I see how the Jump Caves go.
Arc
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Link to video The Jump Cave experience idea works. I leave with 89 XP instead of 29. After you subtract the 29 frames for Life Cancel, the frame counts are still equal. But the extra XP should mean that I save time on the second orange daira later. It looks like you spent a lot of time getting the jump damage boost to work. For now, I did exactly what you did. It appears that the frames where you stand still doing nothing before moving left are necessary to manipulate the ache's movement. Otherwise, it wants to fly back to the left. And then the timing and positioning of the damage boost appear to have almost no room for error.
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That's exactly what I found when originally making the movie, the boost itself is very particular. I think we even got lucky in that the ache rng had it moving mostly right with no manipulation. Saving some time on the daira section later would be great, though. Also, I wish you luck skipping the health refill.
Arc
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To heal, or not to heal, that is the question. Healing takes 112 frames. If I heal and don't kill the second orange daira, I have a guaranteed result of being 27 frames faster. If I don't heal, then I would try to avoid all of the small enemies at Death Mountain. Killing only the 3 dairas would give me enough experience for the levels needed. If it all went perfectly, I'd save the 112 frames. But, it looks like there are at least 5 screens in which small enemies might get in the way. In a quick test I did, I lost 14 frames when I had to front-stab a small enemy that was in the way. So we take (112-27)/14 and the question becomes could I get through Death Mountain front-stabbing 6 or fewer small enemies?
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I don't think you should be including the skipped daira in your decision if you're saving that time whether you heal or not.
Arc
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It's complex. I need 300 XP total. I have 89 + 70 + 100 = 259. If I don't heal, I might need to kill the daira for the 70 XP. If I try to get 41 XP from stabbing/killing small enemies in the way, I'd have 7 stabs to use. My small count is at 1, so the 5th small enemy would drop a 50. (Without a bag drop, they don't give enough XP.) But, I'd have to waste some stabs on achemen. The only real option would be to get 30 XP from a blue goriya, but I might as well kill the daira instead. The whole idea of no-healing doesn't really work, it seems. If I heal, then I can use swordbeam to get 41 XP from killing small enemies without losing time. I'm ready to declare the healing method the winner and take the sure 27 frames, but it was worth going through both options to be sure.
Arc
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Inzult wrote:
Subpixel is reset upon entering a new screen; does not seem relevant for TAS purposes (possibly just for positioning on elevator or picking up items)
I saved 1 frame healing at The Red Woman's house because of subpixel position. In the current run, Link is at X-position 129.128. I used X-position 129.000. I'll fool around with the elevator subpixels at Death Mountain since that's still a bit of a mystery.
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That's smart. I didn't consider the effect acceleration would have given a specific starting subpixel position in that situation. It follows that stabbing the dairas at a slightly higher (or lower, depending on direction) subpixel could lead to reaching the end of screen trigger slightly sooner than in the published run as well. Another situation I overlooked. Though, as you know already, the end of screen trigger is quite wide, so it might be tough to get far enough ahead to make a difference. It's worth looking at, since I didn't optimize for that.
Arc
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I spent the last few days at Death Mountain 2. It's the screen with the octoroks and blue goriya. This screen has to be one of the most difficult in this game or any game. The best I can do is lose 1 extra lag frame. The current run has 5 lag frames in that room, whereas the best I can do is 6 lag frames. I can't copy/paste the current input because the goriya isn't acting the same way. In particular, I can't get the early second boomerang throw to the left. I've tried just about everything possible in this room. What really slays my soul is how that 6th octorok spawns at the end if you kill the first 3 octoroks, and so that option becomes completely unavailable. So I've tried everything with the goriya's movement and throws and this option is the best I can find. There may be 1 or 2 theoretical frames of improvement if anyone wants to try. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/31756604579558494 Overall status currently: 1 frame improved in Saria 2 (Red Woman subpixels) 2 frames improved in Death Mountain 1 (removed lag frames) -1 frame lost in Death Mountain 2 (unsolved lag frame) 27 frames improved in Death Mountain 13 (expected from not killing the daira) -- 29 frames The other DM screens don't seem as difficult, and so looking into the daira subpixels that you mentioned should be the next big issue, followed by the elevator.
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The good news is it is very easy to add more lag. If you were in to that sort of thing. Moving him farther to the left or right doesn't seem to help, and neither does hitting him with the beam sword, which always helped delay the red dairas axes. I tried jumping him at the last possible time where you could still land in his little trough and make the jump up the stairs while keeping him close to my left, in the hopes that I could block the boomerang, but he throws too late for that and plus he throws a second. The only other thing that comes to mind as a possibility, if your beam sword crosses off the left side of the screen while an enemy spawns on the right, you can damage it that way. I don't think the screen is big enough to damage the 6th octorok that way but like, i dunno. This train of thought is getting derailed big time.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (827)
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I've learned that 1 or 2 lost frames are irrelevant anyway. Did you know that the death screen has a 21-frame rule? I played through to the hammer to make sure the plan would work. If I could take the deathblow from the axe 4 frames earlier (and still land on the hammer), the death screen would end 21 frames earlier. I was 28 or 29 frames ahead at this point, as expected. But the death sequence always ends on frame 20200, regardless of when I take the deathblow. I tested it by splicing in 15 frames where I do nothing on the elevator. Still 20200. In the current run, the death sequence ends on frame 20222. So, I'm only 22 frames ahead. If I could get hit by the axe at least 4 frames earlier, then the death sequence would end on 20179. Then I would be 43 frames ahead. Shifting levels or kills around could bring the whole sequence into play... 4-25-46-67-88-109-130-151-172-193-214 Gotta reevaluate everything now. Edit: I have an idea. I'll try to have the red daira at the elevator throw an axe right as I kill it. Then the axe would hit Link right as he exits the screen. I take the necessary damage, but there's no damage animation on the next screen. In testing, I was able to get through the second orange daira 9 frames faster without the damage hit. That gives me 5 frames if I need them to manipulate the elevator red daira. This idea looks like it might work, and it might be awesome.
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Arc wrote:
Edit: I have an idea. I'll try to have the red daira at the elevator throw an axe right as I kill it. Then the axe would hit Link right as he exits the screen. I take the necessary damage, but there's no damage animation on the next screen.
I didn't notice there was a death screen frame rule. I imagine trying to take damage here would make it hard to leave the screen after the EXP from the kill begins to tick. It's unfortunate I was never able to find a way to take damage at the edge of the screen anywhere, though, so if you can do it good on you.
Personman
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This is really fun to read :)
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Arc
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Location: Arizona
I found a solution! Death Mountain is finished! 43 frames faster! http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/31889946277063253 The winning solution: -I saved time fighting the first orange daira. After the first whirlwind attack, I walked through it and did the second whirlwind from the right side. Doing so killed it 6 frames faster. That gave me the 4 frames I needed to skip another 21-frame cycle on the death screen. Ideas that failed, for those who like to read: -I tried the red daira idea first, but, indeed, the only way to make it work was to not get the 100 XP. It doesn't throw a projectile axe until it also has a fully extended hand-axe, and the hand-axe has a longer reach than Link's sword. I could still make a kill after it releases the projectile axe with movement skills, but the projectile hits only a few frames later. -I would bypass the first orange daira, intending to kill it on the way back. This way would save a 21-frame cycle, but then I assumed it would take at least 27 frames to kill it. Even if it were only 21, it wouldn't save time. -I went back to the laggy room with the octoroks and goriya. I tried every way to get a swordbeam on the third octorok, but there was no way. Note: The goriya lag frames ultimately did not result in any time loss, nor did the 1 frame I had to wait to manipulate a bot's position, because of the 21-frame cycle. -I tried delaying the level up (184 frames) and changing nothing else. I still needed 4 frames, and so I think that time in the menu doesn't count toward the cycle. -I considered getting another 50-bag + 20 XP so I wouldn't have to fight the orange daira. I would have needed to change a lot of things, and it probably wouldn't work anyway. I also considered the 'nuclear option' of not getting Attack 2, but that looked like it would fail long-term.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (827)
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Update http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/32067802847838519 Time saved 1 frame - Saria subpixels 42 frames - 2 Death Mountain death cycles 2 frames - Water of Life cave (1 frame of movement, 1 frame earlier Up+A) -- 45 frames total The walking around part is done. No time saved in Mido. In Parapa I'll spend most of my time testing the elevator subpixels since it wasn't necessary in Death Mountain. And then maybe save time on Horsehead.
Arc
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Subpixels, Exits, and Elevators This elevator positioning issue has bothered me for 10 years, and so I finally gave it a full examination. Subpixels are divided into 16 portions of 16 (16*16=256). Link spawns at Zelda at X-position 112.000. One step right at speed 1 would be 112.016. One step left would be 111.240. Link's maximum speed is 24, meaning he advances 24 chunks of 16 subpixels in one frame, or 1.5 pixels. Moving right from 112.000 at top speed (24) takes him to 113.128 on the next frame and 115.000 on the frame after that. Room exits occur when Link crosses a particular pixel line. For example, Link reaches the left exit at Zelda after crossing from 251.000 to 250.240. Link can stand at 251.000 forever, but once he reaches 250.240 or further left, the screen will go to black 2 frames later. This abacus chart shows Link's final X-position when exiting left from Zelda after various losses of subpixels from suboptimal speed. The main point is that there's a 24-subpixel block that maintains the same exit frame. Examples: -At max speed, Link crosses over the exit line (250.240) going from 251.064 to 249.192. So the position on the first frame after crossing is 248.064, and then the second frame (33951) is always the black screen. -If Link slows down and loses 1 subpixel chunk, then he crosses over the exit line going from 251.080 to 249.208. Link is still well beyond the 250.240 threshold, and so no frame is lost. The black screen still comes up on frame 33951. -Going from 252.112 to 250.240 is still enough to exit on frame 33951. But when Link slows down too much and loses too many subpixels, he will go from 252.128 to 251.000. That is not enough to cross the exit line, and so Link will need another frame to cross from 251.000 to 249.128. Then Link's final position will be 248.000, and the black screen will come up on frame 33952. Testing elevators, however, yielded an unexpected result. I tested every relevant subpixel position. Instead of a 24-subpixel cycle, there's an uneven 8-cycle. Inzult and I are getting the same frame result on the elevators. Inzult is within the 'valley.' The chart shows that getting to X-position 119.192 would lead to an exit on frame 36662. Whereas getting to X-position 120.176 would lead to an exit 1 frame later on frame 36663, even though it's 15 subpixel chunks closer to the exit! How is that possible? The answer is that the exit shifts a pixel to the right. 119.064 to 119.176: exit cross is 238.000. 119.192 to 120.048 (The Valley): exit cross is 238.000. 120.064 to 120.176: exit cross is 239.000. 120.192 to 121.048: exit cross is 238.000. Without the exit cross oddity, I'm fairly sure that it's like a normal 24-subpixel block. Inzult is on the earlier part of it, and I'm at the end of it, but the result is the same because we both cross the 238.000 exit line on the same frame. I've confirmed that starting just one more subpixel step over (from position 121.064) would be enough to reach 238.000 1 frame earlier. But right now it's theoretical. 121.048 is the best position I've been able to get on the elevator so far, but I'll keep trying.
Experienced player (691)
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Arc, I think you should make a Game Resources page for this game, just to organize your discoveries better.
Here, my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/dekutony
Joined: 12/29/2007
Posts: 47
I have an idea for improving the 1F on the field. image Using the 16F early flute in front of the palace, you can improve the 1F. Maybe you might be able to improve even in places of monsters bridge.
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Arc wrote:
The answer is that the exit shifts a pixel to the right.
This is extremely cool. And weird.
Arc
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Kurabupengin wrote:
Arc, I think you should make a Game Resources page for this game, just to organize your discoveries better.
I will keep writing notes in the thread while making the movie and then make a resources page when it's done.
RAT926 wrote:
I have an idea for improving the 1F on the field. image Using the 16F early flute in front of the palace, you can improve the 1F. Maybe you might be able to improve even in places of monsters bridge.
You are right. It saves 1 frame. Good find.
Inzult wrote:
This is extremely cool. And weird.
I now have proof that getting into position 121.064 on the elevator is impossible, and so I can't save a frame when exiting right. But, exiting left could still be different. The first screen in Midoro is an elevator that exits left, so we'll know soon. Update - Parapa complete http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/32201192675939650 Time saved 1 frame - Saria subpixels 42 frames - 2 Death Mountain death cycles 2 frames - Water of Life cave (1 frame of movement, 1 frame earlier Up+A) 1 frame - Parapa stalfos (maintained max speed) 2 frames - Horsehead (stayed a little lower for earlier whirlwind) -- 48 frames total There are really only 3 things of note that happen in Parapa: the P-bag stalfos, Horsehead, and getting the key. Inzult's techniques for all 3 were excellent. Horsehead has different movements depending on which frame you enter the screen. I didn't get the same pattern as Inzult. (I'd get Inzult's Horsehead pattern only if I waited 5 frames.) I think they all have the same optimal time, though. You just have to adjust Link's aerial moves depending on how Horsehead moves.
Samsara
She/They
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Joined: 11/13/2006
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Arc wrote:
Parapa
U TASin' COOL! Keep up the great work, can't wait for the final product!
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
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Just watched the whole WIP so far, at a glance it looks solid.
Arc
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I love the Power Glove; it's so bad. Saved 81 frames in this room. Similar to the Death Mountain situation, I was initially just a few frames away from the next death cycle (which saves 21 frames). Fortunately, I was able to manipulate the Ironknuckle to swing his sword a few frames earlier and save the 21 frames. (Viz., if I take a deathblow on frame 49178 or earlier, the death screen ends on frame 49346, whereas if I take a deathblow on frame 49181 or later, the death screen ends after an extra 21-frame cycle, on frame 49367.) Time saved 1 frame - Saria subpixels 6 frames - Death Mountain orange daira #1 30 frames - Death Mountain Hammer 6 frames - Death Mountain death cycle difference 2 frames - Water of Life cave 1 frame - Parapa stalfos 2 frames - Horsehead 1 frame - Midoro swamp 3 frames - Midoro magic jar grab 73 frames - Midoro Glove 8 frames - Midoro death cycle difference 1 frame - Midoro moa elevator -- 134 frames saved total
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