Joined: 9/23/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Moreno Valley, California
Okay, xipo beat me fair and square. But that doesn't mean I have to take it lying down. ^_^ Working on an improvement of my own, but because xipo does good work, I'm only ahead of him by like five frames right now (just beat the first foot wave).
I was also wrong about a bunch of things about 2P mode. There's not more enemies and I don't think the bosses are stronger. 2P is still a pain in the butt, but I'm managing as best I can.
"The way to move out of judgment is to move into gratitude." — Neale Donald Walsch
DannyLilithborne on IRC
Joined: 9/23/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Moreno Valley, California
This might turn out to be harder than I thought...
Reaching the boss with two players gives the boss a very hefty stamina boost (by half their original HP). I can't ignore this, especially with the extra enemy waves that occur in 2P mode; it means sacrificing time to get more points might actually be required; the extra waves generally waste 120 frames at least, a cost which would be needed if I were to decide to only kill a player before the boss. With eight bosses and four mid-bosses, I'd need more lives than are available to cut each major baddie's HP by a third.
(Oh yeah, I was wrong about being wrong about 2P not having more waves, as well as the bosses having more HP. Thanks to Baxter, again. x_x)
"The way to move out of judgment is to move into gratitude." — Neale Donald Walsch
DannyLilithborne on IRC
Joined: 9/23/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Moreno Valley, California
WIP!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1477720746/Dasrik%20TMNT3%20-%20to%20Slash.fcm
I have completed the stage up to Slash (level 3 miniboss) and am so far 258 frames ahead of xipo. He made me work hard for every frame. The only obvious improvement is killing the mecha-gunners at the end of 2-1 much quicker. I guess xipo thought they were invulnerable when flying in; given that this game is full of ridiculous invulernability frames, that's a reasonable assumption.
Probably the biggest surprise for me is that Donatello turned out to be useful after all.
"The way to move out of judgment is to move into gratitude." — Neale Donald Walsch
DannyLilithborne on IRC
Nice wip :), but I have some questions.
You killed your turtle twice without changing the turtle, what's the use of this?
Wouldn't killing a turtle be faster right after a wave of enemies, before the screen starts scrolling, instead of when the screen is scrolling?
Isn't killing an enemy with Don's supermove faster than throwing them, and wouldn't it be faster then to at least kill the last enemy with this movie, instead of the throw? (if I remember correctly, Don and Leo's supermoves makes the enemies fly relatively low, and kills enemies like 10 frames faster than Mich's and Raph's supermoves)
Joined: 9/23/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Moreno Valley, California
Baxter wrote:
You killed your turtle twice without changing the turtle, what's the use of this?
I asked myself this question when watching xipo's run. When I actually tried to run it in 2P, I realized that (1) there are extra waves of enemies that appear when you reach certain points in the level with two turtles, and (2) the bosses have 50% more HP if you reach them with two turtles (I spoke on this earlier). So it's important to be able to reach these points with just one turtle alive.
Wouldn't killing a turtle be faster right after a wave of enemies, before the screen starts scrolling, instead of when the screen is scrolling?
If you kill the other turtle at those points and they still have lives left, the screen won't scroll far enough to reach the 'trigger' points. When they reach 'Game Over' state, this restriction goes away (which is why 2P has more points than 1P).
Isn't killing an enemy with Don's supermove faster than throwing them, and wouldn't it be faster then to at least kill the last enemy with this movie, instead of the throw? (if I remember correctly, Don and Leo's supermoves makes the enemies fly relatively low, and kills enemies like 10 frames faster than Mich's and Raph's supermoves)
Yes, but supermoves only give you 100 points compared to throw's 400. I need the points to have enough lives to give up for future bosses.
"The way to move out of judgment is to move into gratitude." — Neale Donald Walsch
DannyLilithborne on IRC
Joined: 9/23/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Moreno Valley, California
Other questions people might have:
* I really am not sure that Leo and Raph will be used again. They are nice to have on enemy waves, but there's nothing they can do that Mike/Don can't do at the same speed as long as they guard opposite sides of the screen. Don's ability to do his super move in the corner along with its rather slow speed of movement effectively obsoletes Leo's completely stationary and less damaging one. But I'm not discounting anything just yet.
* I slash some of the jumping Foot in level 2-1 for some extra points. This causes a very small amount of lag (about 15-ish frames in total). Throwing gives more point, but the lag becomes disgusting, so this was a compromise. The points will be worth it in the end.
* I've whined about this before, but luck manipulation is terribly strict in this game. The slighest twitch of a movement will cause enemies to appear in less convenient locations and, in some cases, later (this is especially true of the stone soldiers, who will wait up to 40(!) extra frames to appear if you move incorrectly). So if you see something that appears to be inefficient, that is the reason.
* Scrolling is also finicky, especially in areas with differing elevation. I'm not 100% sure on how it works, but it seems that if one turtle is far enough from another turtle and on a different elevation, the screen won't scroll. Jump kicks and super moves also freeze up the scrolling, but only if the other turtle isn't doing some other form of forward movement, so I try to keep a turtle walking forward at all times.
* Enemies have 16 frames of invulnerability after getting hit. If they go into their reel animation, the invulnerability point begins after the reel, not during; in some cases, it's good to manipulate bosses into doing attacks with autoguard (Rocksteady's shoulder charge and Tokka's posing before his jumping bite attack), but not always; particularly, if the autoguard attack moves forward very quickly. Unfortunately, the second level boss will *always* go into autoguard after you hit him once, so there's no way around that.
Oh, and by the way - the reason I didn't do a 2P player run before is that for some reason I didn't discover this wonderful thing called 'frame advance' until just now. It makes it so much easier!
"The way to move out of judgment is to move into gratitude." — Neale Donald Walsch
DannyLilithborne on IRC
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 231
Location: Lonely City
Dasrik wrote:
Other questions people might have:
I really am not sure that Leo and Raph will be used again. They are nice to have on enemy waves, but there's nothing they can do that Mike/Don can't do at the same speed as long as they guard opposite sides of the screen. Don's ability to do his super move in the corner along with its rather slow speed of movement effectively obsoletes Leo's completely stationary and less damaging one. But I'm not discounting anything just yet.
Ye，I think you will ues Leo and Raph again.Don hits 8HP,and Raph hits 7HP,there is only 1HP difference.But Raph's speed is much faster than Don's.Do you think?
Leo's power is strong,because he can attack continually .
Dasrik wrote:
I slash some of the jumping Foot in level 2-1 for some extra points. This causes a very small amount of lag (about 15-ish frames in total). Throwing gives more point, but the lag becomes disgusting, so this was a compromise. The points will be worth it in the end.
This lag is a little troublesome。Because we can't reduce it.
* I've whined about this before, but luck manipulation is terribly strict in this game. The slighest twitch of a movement will cause enemies to appear in less convenient locations and, in some cases, later (this is especially true of the stone soldiers, who will wait up to 40(!) extra frames to appear if you move incorrectly). So if you see something that appears to be inefficient, that is the reason.
When I made the TMNT2 movie, I used memory adresses which changed their value on the exact frame they got vulnerable. Their point of entrance, and the moment the enemies get vulnerable had both to do with my movement, and also a big factor was at what frame I killed the previous enemy. Sometimes killing an enemy a few frames later made the next enemy vulnerable sooner.
I'm not sure, but there might be adresses like this too for TMNT3... they were a great help for me, and gave me a lot more convidence that what I was doing was somewhat perfect (instead of just randomly trying thing. You might want to check out if there is something similar at TMNT3
Joined: 9/23/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Moreno Valley, California
xipo wrote:
Ye，I think you will ues Leo and Raph again.Don hits 8HP,and Raph hits 7HP,there is only 1HP difference.But Raph's speed is much faster than Don's.Do you think?
Leo's power is strong,because he can attack continually .
I freaked out momentarily upon reading this, so I double checked to make sure. ^_^ Don's hits for 9 HP, and can actually triple-hit on autoguarding enemies. Leo's does 8, which is nice, but will pretty much never double hit on someone outside of the corner. I was thinking of using Leo on Rahzer (ice-breathing Technodrome mini-boss), but Don would most likely be better. However, Leo *might* be useful on Leatherhead because he'd be able to stay inside him during his swinging tail attack.
As for Raphael, it's a shame to say it because Raph is my personal favorite, but he seems to not really have a place in a 2P run. He's easier, to be sure (which is why I use him in level 1), but since his drill stops the screen from scrolling and you can use jumpkicks to reach A0 before the Foot explode (the minimum range where the screen will scroll if you move forward), there doesn't seem to be much of a reason to keep him around. But, again, I'm not discounting anything. There might be a situation in which the horizontal movement of the drill will be necessary. I tried to use him on Groundchuck, but no matter what I did, I couldn't do better than my Mike/Don strategy.
Whoa, there was a dissertation for you. Sorry about that ^_^;
Baxter wrote:
When I made the TMNT2 movie, I used memory adresses which changed their value on the exact frame they got vulnerable. Their point of entrance, and the moment the enemies get vulnerable had both to do with my movement, and also a big factor was at what frame I killed the previous enemy. Sometimes killing an enemy a few frames later made the next enemy vulnerable sooner.
I'm not sure, but there might be adresses like this too for TMNT3... they were a great help for me, and gave me a lot more convidence that what I was doing was somewhat perfect (instead of just randomly trying thing. You might want to check out if there is something similar at TMNT3
If only I had the kind of skill required to find those addresses; it would make things *so* much easier. The way I'm doing it now (touch and go), it appears to be completely random. Staying completely still in a multi-wave area can make them appear at great points, but if I tap up with one turtle for one frame, they'll appear later and/or in the completely wrong areas. The only thing I've figured out is that tapping stuff in idle frames doesn't seem to affect this at all, so it's actual movement that triggers the luck.
"The way to move out of judgment is to move into gratitude." — Neale Donald Walsch
DannyLilithborne on IRC
Joined: 9/23/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Moreno Valley, California
Looking over xipo's run, it looks like there are some points where running in 1P for awhile avoids a lot of extra waves. I'll have to investigate, but if that's so, then Raphael might make a comeback. ^_^
"The way to move out of judgment is to move into gratitude." — Neale Donald Walsch
DannyLilithborne on IRC
Great that you decided to improve this run, Dasrik! Will you insert some old input dances? ;)
I've found these adresses that Baxter mentioned, but there are some details necessary to explain.
You may know that the game has 8 slots for enemy objects. Thus there are 8 memory addresses for life (x621-x628), 8 X and 8 Y coordinates and so on. Also, x529-x530 adresses contain 8 enemy identificators (0 = free slot, 5 = foot soldier1 here, ...)
So, naturally there are 8 invulnerability timers stored at x689-x690. They work in somewhat unusual way. Actually there are two types of enemies - ones that have no invulnerability time (you can hurt them right when they appear) and ones that have standard_invulnerability_period. And this period depends on a slot where invulnerable object appears.
For example, if an enemy appears on first slot (slot0, which is unlikely), it will have whole 224 frames of invulnerability (x689=32*(7-0)=224). If it appears on slot 3 then it'll have 96 frames of invulnerability (x68C=96). Fortunately, enemies usually try to appear from last slot (7), but if it's already used, they appear in next-to-last slot, then try other slot and so on. When there's only three enemies, they take slots 7,6,5 and their invulnerability timers are 0, 32, 64.
So it seems you can't manipulate these timers - the only thing you can do is to make enemy from slot7 (with timer=0) appear closer to you and then wait 32 frames for 2nd enemy / 64 for 3rd.
And of course you'll want new enemies to appear on slot7, so try to clear this slot before new enemy decides to appear (slot7 is cleared when x530=0, see above). Well, I'm speaking only about enemies with invulnerability timers, as for those without invulnerability, you can let them take any slot - they still will have timer=0.
Ok, hope this helps. :)
That's some great information AnS... it should definately be useful to Dasrik I think. It seems to work a little different than at TMNT2.
======
Sorry for going completely offtopic:
Are you currently working on some TAS AnS?
And if so, which one?
Sorry for going completely offtopic:
Are you currently working on some TAS AnS?
And if so, which one?
Currently I'm trying to finish old Werewolf improvement, but it goes slowly and uninteresting. Also I have some plans to polish my first published movie (Little Mermaid), but not this year. So, nothing really special, I guess.
Joined: 9/23/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Moreno Valley, California
People have asked me about this run, so I might as well just make an announcement regarding it, even though it's been years.
I'm quitting doing TAS'es indefinitely (which isn't forever, it just means I have no idea as to what time I'll start again) because I lost all my data in a hard disk crash. I am now running a laptop which uses Vista and can't handle any sort of heavy duty CPU use, not to mention my health, which has taken a steady, if subtle, decline since the last time I worked on it.
If anyone (I'm looking at you, xipo) wants to take my work and run with it, feel free. Just give me co-author credit if you pick up from my WIP, although I doubt that will be happening because xipo planned the whole run from the beginning whereas I was touch and go and missed what would happen at the end.
So, sorry, guys. Have fun trying!
"The way to move out of judgment is to move into gratitude." — Neale Donald Walsch
DannyLilithborne on IRC
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I'm picking this project.
And here's a script displaying the proper data:
Download tmnt3.lua
Language: lua
function info()
for i = 0, 7 do
x = memory.readbyte(0x47b+i)
y = memory.readbyte(0x499+i) - memory.readbyte(0x4b7+i)
hp = memory.readbyte(0x622+i)
timer = memory.readbyte(0x68a+i)
id = memory.readbyte(0x52a+i)
if x< 6 then x= 6
elseif x>250 then x=250 end
if id>0 then
gui.text(x-6, y-18, string.format("S%d",i+1))
gui.text(x-6, y- 9, string.format(hp))
gui.text(x-6, y, string.format(timer))
end
end
end
emu.registerafter(info)
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
There's a hack that makes the game even harder. Remember the pirated version where it you weaker and enemies stronger and that Shredder can't be defeated? This hacks adds Hard and Expert to the difficulty selection. Expert has the difficulty of the pirated version, while Hard is a hybrid between that and Normal.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Please try to only bring up ROM hacks that significantly change the game. Hacks that do nothing but change the graphics or make things harder aren't acceptable. They need to be notable and drastically different from the base game in multiple ways.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
