1 2
6 7
Post subject: Worrying trends in speedrunning techniques
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
I know that this is most probably not a very popular opinion, but I would kindly request that if people want to reply, they express their opinions in a civil and pragmatic manner. I would really not want this to become any kind of flamewar. Disagreeing is completely fine (and in fact welcome), but please express your opinion in a reasonable manner. I have started noticing a trend in speedrunning techniques that I really don't like. I'm referring to unassisted speedruns here. You might know what kinds of techniques I really don't like in tool-assisted speedruns (because I sometimes can become quite vocal about it), so you might guess the kind of techniques I'm referring to. Over the last few years I have really grown to appreciate the completion of games via skillful gameplay. In other words, using the inputs that the game offers to control the playable character and to advance the game. Movement, jumping, shooting, pressing in-game buttons and switches, and so on and so forth. I believe that you know what I mean without having to be too nitpicky about it. What I do not consider gameplay are the "meta" features that a game offers for practical reasons. These are things that often need to exist in other to manage your game data, so to speak, but are not gameplay in itself. These include things like saving and loading the game (necessary because of practical reasons, but not part of gameplay, and please don't nitpick about the half-dozen exceptions that exist from the millions of video games out there; please understand what I'm trying to say), and fine-tuning graphical settings, controls, sound volume, etc. Essentially, non-gameplay "meta" features are the things that you don't need to complete the game, and exist solely to allow you to continue your playing later, to adjust the visual quality of the game, and so on. Optimally, a speedrun would never use those things, because they are not playing the game. (Segmented speedruns can use saving and loading in order to start a new segment, of course, but only for that purpose, not for the purpose of affecting the actual game.) Personally, the more a speedrun uses those non-gameplay features to somehow make completing the game faster, or even glitch the game, the less I like it. It's not completing the game purely via gameplay. Instead, it's abusing non-gameplay elements to interfere with the game, or even glitch it. (Glitching itself is not the problem. If you can glitch the game via gameplay, that's A-ok in my books. The problem is when it's done via non-gameplay means.) What is worrying me is that I see more and more non-gameplay techniques being used, especially in games I like and love. Techniques that were not discovered nor used years ago. For example, in recent years Half-Life 2 speedruns have started abusing saving and loading to glitch the game. I don't really like this, nor consider it completing the game by playing it. What is worse, a newer abuse is to go to the game's menu, delete a save file from there, and then try to load it. This is most definitely not gameplay. It's not even a question of "if it's supported by the game, it's ok." Everything supported by the game is not ok, not even by the speedrunning community. What non-gameplay techniques are and aren't allowed is quite arbitrary. Why is it, for example, allowed to go to the game's save menu and delete a save file from there, but it is not allowed to, for instance, to go to the game's menu and load the next chapter (without completing the current one)? Or why isn't it allowed to open the game's console and write cheat codes there? After all, everything mentioned is supported by the game itself. So it's not a question of "if it's supported by the game". (And the above was a rhetorical question. I'm not asking for an answer to this situation in particular. It's a way to open up discussion.) In some games you can go to the game's menu and select "restart checkpoint" (or similar). In some of these games this can be abused to make completion faster. (In some cases it only saves a few seconds, but in other cases it can skip an entire long level, when coupled with certain out-of-bounds glitching.) I'd say this is a bit borderline, but personally I still don't like it. It's once again not gameplay; not really. It's not something that's an integral part of playing the game, nor do you need it to complete the game (with good gameplay). One trick in The Talos Principle speedruns requires the game to be running at 20 frames per second. It won't work if it's running faster. "Luckily" the game offers such a setting in its graphics menu. Uh... no. Just no. Perhaps the most extreme and obnoxious example I have seen was a Minecraft speedrun where the runner alt-tabbed to Windows, started the task manager and killed the game from there, and then restarted the game. That's most definitely not gameplay. I most certainly do not consider that a valid completion of the game. You could just as well launch a hex-editor and modify the savefile; not much of a difference. As said, I'm seeing this trend more and more. The "purity" of completing a game as fast as possible by actually playing it is being marred more and more. If you can just mess up with the game's save files from menus, of even the system, that's just not speedrunning anymore. Will I ever see, for example, a HL2 speedrun that uses the most recent gameplay techniques to complete it as fast as possible? Or will every single run be ruined by the abuse of non-gameplay techniques that are arbitrarily allowed for it? Is that famous HL2 speedrun a few years back that did not use any of those non-gameplay tricks the last "pure" speedrun of the game that I will ever see? I don't like this a bit.
Editor, Experienced player (854)
Joined: 5/2/2015
Posts: 696
Location: France
Warp, would you consider this speedrun legitimate, since it uses an exploit? If not, is this one legitimate? And if not, is the one below legitimate? These are all speedruns of the same game. I'm interested in the point you're making: where to draw the line between legitimate gameplay and non-gameplay?
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1029
For a long time, SDA banned deathwarping and savewarping (in addition to any method of getting out of bounds). Eventually, though, the rule was repealed because it was getting hard to define in a consistent way and was holding back speedrunning (many communities just decided to ignore the SDA rules, and you had talk of people making "SDA-legal" runs as a separate category). Deathwarps and savewarps, at least, are things that game designers take into consideration during the game design. In VVVVVV, there is one percent-bearing item that can only be accessed via a deathwarp (and in fact, the map has to change in no-deaths mode to give it to you for free). I speedrun Neverwinter Nights. Some runners use 1024×768 screen resolution, either to make the video easier to capture, or so that they can put splits, timers, etc., alongside the game on their Twitch stream. Some runners use 1366×768 screen resolution because it's the size of their screen. Would you say that both of these are legitimate ways to play the game? Now, suppose I told you that there's a glitch that only works in widescreen screen resolutions (the glitch depends on the camera angle to work, and you can't get it to the angle in question on a 4:3 resolution). Does this make one of the screen resolutions an invalid way to play? Does it make the glitch itself illegal? There's no need to change the screen resolution to make the glitch work. (There is such a glitch. However, there's a way to do the same thing that's both faster and less RNG-dependent, so the glitch isn't currently used on runs.) On the note of save/reload glitches: back when I first started routing Neverwinter Nights, I started routing both single-segment and single-segment-with-resets. (Saving and reloading in the middle of a single-segment run is still a different category at SDA. I have no problem with this; if savewarping has a particularly bad effect on a run it means that you can submit a run without.) Eventually we discovered that it's possible to skip a reasonably common cutscene via saving and reloading in the middle of it. Now everybody runs single-segment-with-resets, and nobody runs single-segment; we just don't want to waste our time watching that cutscene every time it comes up. Category choice is often influenced by what people want to play. So I guess the way to look at things is: the boundary between gameplay and metagameplay sometimes isn't as clear as it seems, and when it is clear, you can categorise various parts of metagameplay in and out (and some categories are going to appeal more to runners than others, which may not be the categories that appeal to you as a viewer).
YaLTeR
He/Him
Joined: 12/2/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Moscow, Russia
We had a lot of discussions about this kind of stuff in HL2 and HL1 (we, as in speedrun communities for the corresponding games) and it turned out to be a huge swamp without any clear way out. For HL2, the general direction was to ban console-only stuff and allow anything else. Warp's example about selecting the next chapter from the menu isn't valid because the chapters you haven't completed yet aren't available for selection. In HL1, the FPS the game is running at plays a huge part in the gameplay. A lot of things depend on it. With higher FPS you can accelerate faster and do certain tricks better, with lower FPS the NPCs turn faster and you can do other tricks better. The problem is, you cannot really control the FPS well. For example, some speedrunner has a consistently high FPS in an area where high FPS is beneficial, and his PC lags and has a low FPS in an area where low FPS is beneficial. This way he's having an advantage over other runners with better PCs (which have high FPS everywhere). Would it make sense to ban you from speedrunning a game just because you have an advantage of your PC being slightly worse? So, for HL1 we settled with being able to limit the FPS to any value and change that limit during gameplay.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
ais523 wrote:
Eventually we discovered that it's possible to skip a reasonably common cutscene via saving and reloading in the middle of it.
I actually intended to mention cutscenes in my original post, but forgot. I suppose it depends on whether the cutscene is interactive or not. For non-interactive cutscenes I think it's ok to use any means to skip them (eg. go to the game's menu and select "skip cutscene", or even use a non-gameplay glitch to do it) because such cutscenes are not gameplay. They are just essentially a short movie. Watching the movie isn't not really playing the game, so it can be skipped if possible. (Although I wouldn't object loudly if some ruling entity came up with the rule that cutscenes can't be skipped either. For a casual viewer cutscenes are ok.) As for interactive cutscenes, the question becomes a lot harder. I suppose it depends on the particular game.
xy2_ wrote:
Warp, would you consider this speedrun legitimate, since it uses an exploit? If not, is this one legitimate? And if not, is the one below legitimate?
It's hard to compare physical games to video games. In this case, I think you'd agree that it would be cheating to take the ball with your hand and put it in the final destination. There's nothing in the game stopping you from doing that, though... Here the player seems to be using the game's own control system to control the game, and skip parts of it. Seems quite legit to me. It's a bit like glitching through a wall or making an unintended jump in a video game, using the game's own control scheme.
YaLTeR wrote:
Would it make sense to ban you from speedrunning a game just because you have an advantage of your PC being not good enough?
Some examples can certainly be fuzzy and hard to judge. (I suppose that as long as you don't go and change the game's graphical settings mid-run, what you describe is something that just has to be accepted for practical reasons.) But the examples I gave fall in a much clearer category, and could ostensibly be made into generic rules (with allowed exceptions for particular games, if there is a very, very good reason for it. For example for games that use saving and loading as a necessary part to advance in the game, as a form of fourth-wall-breaking meta-gameplay.)
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
The reason for categories existing is for players who prefer speed runs done with different rules. This whole concept of unsettling trends is pointless. Just watch/play the category you like and everyone will be happy.
Joined: 1/10/2016
Posts: 2
Lex wrote:
The reason for categories existing is for players who prefer speed runs done with different rules. This whole concept of unsettling trends is pointless. Just watch/play the category you like and everyone will be happy.
This. It's completely unnecessary to try and control what people do in speedruns, in regards to what tricks and glitches they use. As long as someone isn't cheating, and labels their speedrun appropriately, according to category, everyone is as free as you are to make whatever they want to. As far as HL2 goes, new glitches are constantly being discovered, and the runs will continue to be improved upon because of these. This applies to any speedgame out there. Just because you don't like a trend doesn't mean everyone's drop their hobbies, and bends to your desire. Just let them be, do your own thing, and let them do theirs.
Joined: 7/28/2005
Posts: 339
"Do whatever you want, there are literally no rules." - MarkSoupial Speedruns are, ultimately, just entertainment. Creating a structured ruleset facilitates competition, which makes them more fun, but if those rules become too restrictive or arbitrary (based on one person's opinion of what a speedrun "should" be), then they can easily stop being fun. And if they're not fun, what's the point?
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Centaur1um wrote:
It's completely unnecessary to try and control what people do in speedruns
It's a lament, not an attempt at controlling people. There is a hobby that I love to follow and watch. I find worrying trends creeping in in later years, which make the hobby less enjoyable to watch (for me, personally.) I would find it sad if this hobby would transform into something I don't like. I don't believe I am the only person in the world with this view. If more "pure" speedruns of the games I love are still being made in addition to those exploiting techniques I don't like, then it's great. However, I worry that maybe speedrunners might stop making those, especially if there is no incentive to do them (eg. no semi-officially recognized world records to break in such categories, etc.)
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
It's a natural democracy. The proportion of runs in a given category correlates in a relevant manner to the proportion of people interested in that category.
Joined: 1/10/2016
Posts: 2
Well, who knows what the speedrunners of the future will do! I believe that, as long as there are authorities to keep people from getting away with cheating, which will only get stronger as more and more communities pop up, the integrity of speedruns will be maintained. However, people need to be more vocal when calling out something that's unfair or blatant cheating, and encourage more people to be open to debate. I've been maintaining the HL2 running community for 7 years, and have watched 3 different generations of runners come through, and one constant is that there's a lot of debate always going on determining what's fair and what's not. For the record, that save-deleting thing you mentioned was brought up a lot, and was met with a lot of dissonance before people got greedy and started to force SD into a regular category. I've never been a fan of that myself, but I try to stay out of categories I don't have any knowledge in. On another note, there will always be a ying-yang to what kind of speedruns people make. I'm working heavily on a new HL2 run, which you'd probably hate :P, but I also plan on making one you might enjoy which stays in-bounds, and is more pure in the eyes of people who turn their noses to more controversial things, like OOB or using scripts too heavily, so who knows! You can't predict the future and all that, but we can shape how upcoming generations will evolve and how they'll appreciate the different categories.
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"Cheating" only exists within the context of a category with rules against a particular method. That run you call "cheating" should just be considered to fit another category.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Warp wrote:
However, I worry that maybe speedrunners might stop making those, especially if there is no incentive to do them (eg. no semi-officially recognized world records to break in such categories, etc.)
Warp. You have no other way to handle that situation other that realizing that if that does happen, you are in no way the one that changes it by creating these threads at tasvideos.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
feos wrote:
if that does happen, you are in no way the one that changes it by creating these threads at tasvideos.
Do you have a problem with me wanting to talk about some subject with other people, and request for opinions and different views? There are many speedrunners frequenting this forum, and their opinions are interesting. If you are not interested in this particular subject, nobody is forcing you to read the thread.
Editor, Skilled player (1824)
Joined: 8/25/2013
Posts: 1200
Warp wrote:
If you are not interested in this particular subject, nobody is forcing you to read the thread.
If you're not interested in runs that use things outside of the controller, nobody is forcing you to watch them.
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter - some loser
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Centaur1um wrote:
but I also plan on making one you might enjoy which stays in-bounds, and is more pure in the eyes of people who turn their noses to more controversial things, like OOB or using scripts too heavily, so who knows!
Btw, I don't mind OOB glitching. Breaking the game (via gameplay) is cool. (That's not to say I don't like in-bounds speedruns as well. Both are very enjoyable categories. For example both categories in Portal runs are awesome.)
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
arandomgameTASer wrote:
Warp wrote:
If you are not interested in this particular subject, nobody is forcing you to read the thread.
If you're not interested in runs that use things outside of the controller, nobody is forcing you to watch them.
It seems that my original request to not turn this into a flamewar fell onto deaf ears. *sigh* I get it. Neither you nor feos like me. That's fine. You can hate me all you want. I don't mind. I would nevertheless humbly request you to stop attacking me in contexts where I have done absolutely nothing wrong, if it's not too much to ask. Thank you.
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
They just want to help you gain some peace of mind. I suggest you reread some of these posts with that in mind. Edit, to add: Regarding anything you want, you have 4 reasonable choices: make/retrieve it yourself, wait for it to appear for you by happy luck, buy it from a willing seller (which may also require waiting for that opportunity), or accept that you can't have it. I know this and it brings me peace of mind, because I can simply go through the options and decide which option I prefer. I don't consider begging or hoping since that's just stressful. It's nicer to relax. Living in frustration about the state of things isn't very nice. I say all this because I used to be that way until I discovered this logic. Another edit: This thread seems to be taken less as a thread about "worrying trends" and more about "Warp is worrying" because speed running trends are all based on the context of what speed runners and their viewers enjoy, which seems to be obvious to everyone else. At this point, the thread is meant to help you understand and not stay worried about these trends which everyone else understands better and be contented. This problem is minuscule compared to the problem of speed running and more importantly, TAS validity, being based on real physics, despite how digital and conceptual everyone would like to believe it to be. That, though, is also not discussed too much because there's nothing we can do about it and we all just want to have fun with games together.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Warp wrote:
feos wrote:
if that does happen, you are in no way the one that changes it by creating these threads at tasvideos.
Do you have a problem with me wanting to talk about some subject with other people, and request for opinions and different views? There are many speedrunners frequenting this forum, and their opinions are interesting. If you are not interested in this particular subject, nobody is forcing you to read the thread.
Sorry, I was just under the impression that if someone is unhappy with something, he is going to try finding solutions for the problem. Maybe it's a glitch in my mind that makes me worry too much and make all these posts with detailed analysis and suggestions. Welp, I was wrong, solution is not required. Thinking is not required either, since it attacks people. Surely it is my failure to first do things that I want others to do as well. Excuse me for derailing your stream of consciousness.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Lex wrote:
This thread seems to be taken less as a thread about "worrying trends" and more about "Warp is worrying" because speed running trends are all based on the context of what speed runners and their viewers enjoy, which seems to be obvious to everyone else. At this point, the thread is meant to help you understand and not stay worried about these trends which everyone else understands better and be contented.
Is it really so hard to simply discuss the subject and not make it personal at every possible turn? xy2_, ais523 and YaLTeR participated in the discussion and brought up additional points of view and examples, and clearly wanted to talk about the subject itself, which is exactly what I wanted. Speedrunning is a hobby. I like following said hobby. I like discussing things pertaining that hobby. Can we discuss the hobby and forget about whose nickname happens to be marked as the author of the post?
Former player
Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1107
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Banning savearping always seemed pointless to me. Just look at the strange rules of Glitchless Ocarina of Time, that make people use deathwarps instead, something that makes the run look much worse than savewarps! In the Diddy Kong Racing community, we press the reset button all the time to skip the cutscenes after beating the bossses. The smaller cutscenes after each race are skipped with pressing the start button at the right frame after the finish line, so we can quit out of the race during the cutscene. Do you think the runs would be more interesting to watch or play if we were forced to watch those cutscenes? It would only make it longer and remove the skill involved with the small cutscene skips.
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Invariel
He/Him
Editor, Site Developer, Player (171)
Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 539
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Warp wrote:
Speedrunning is a hobby. I like following said hobby. I like discussing things pertaining that hobby. Can we discuss the hobby and forget about whose nickname happens to be marked as the author of the post?
Discussing the hobby is all well and good, but the point of a forum discussion is also to discuss the points made, in their relevant contexts. In this case, "I have started noticing a trend in speedrunning techniques that I really don't like." is the thesis of the original post, and people seem to be responding to that to further the discussion. To that end, the post's author is relevant, as the thesis is a pair of "I" statements. And, in response to those "I" statements, my impression of the situation, based on your posts in this thread and in other threads is that you are resistant to the changing landscape of the hobby that you follow. Which is a very valid standpoint. However, you are one voice against the tide of change, and to that end, you are being drowned out by people who like the change, or who at least accept it. To an extent, I can agree with your points about not wanting the landscape of speedrunning (and TASing) to change too much from "actually playing the game." With that said, I do like watching the ACE runs and the major glitches because they show what the programming allows (that was not intended by the developer), and as a programmer myself, I am reminded to watch out for these things in my own programming. Consider, for example, the very common L+R input. Because I have seen so many games where L+R has unintended consequences, I am more aware of opposing inputs being input simultaneously, and will be aiming to avoid that in my own code. Many games also include walls where the textures line up but the hitboxes do not, leading to unintended skipping or other interesting consequences, and if I enter the world of 3D gaming, this is something I will be aware of. In the long run (pun somewhat intended), if I am presented with a speedrun that is basically a longplay with knowledge, and a speedrun that uses actual speed techniques (glitches, strange code interactions, etc.), I am far more likely to watch the latter, because I can experience the former by playing the game myself and gain more enjoyment.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Joined: 6/28/2010
Posts: 5
I really think your concerns are somewhat unfounded. What is allowed and disallowed, along with the various categories, are determined by the community running the game. These communities are often a diverse bunch with different thoughts and ideas on the games they run. Many times there is a group within the community that finds a certain category boring to play, generally one that either completely breaks the game and makes it more dependent on precise inputs rather than focusing on skillful gameplay, much like how you don't enjoy watching them. They make different categories for the game so that they can have more gameplay focused categories. If there isn't a portion of the community that feels anything in particular is an issue, sure, you won't see anybody trying to run a category that "fixes" it. At that point you have 2 options. 1) Deal with it, or 2) Find support to create a new category, and start running it yourself to make people in that game's community aware of it. You yourself can always actively participate in order to make a difference you want to see happen. It should also be noted that trying to define "Glitchless" is a descent into madness and should probably be avoided. The same would probably also be valid for a theoretical "No Meta" category.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Invariel wrote:
if I am presented with a speedrun that is basically a longplay with knowledge, and a speedrun that uses actual speed techniques (glitches, strange code interactions, etc.), I am far more likely to watch the latter, because I can experience the former by playing the game myself and gain more enjoyment.
I don't have a problem with glitches. I have a problem when those glitches are triggered using external non-gameplay means (and I include things like "go to the game's menu and delete the savefile from there" in that category).
Invariel
He/Him
Editor, Site Developer, Player (171)
Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 539
Location: Toronto, Ontario
So, you are opposed to using programming glitches?
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
1 2
6 7