I love JPRGs. The first JRPGs I played were Dragon Warriors 2-4 (I especially loved 4). I have since played quite many of them, including the Final Fantasy series. (By now I have played all Final Fantasies from 1 to 9, as well as the ones described below.)
In the late 80's and the 90's Final Fantasy was the JRPG series, and Square was the JRPG company. (Ok, Enix and the Dragon Warrior series was also quite popular.) Whenever you saw the name "Square" attached to a game, and especially if the game's name had the words "Final" and "Fantasy" in it, you could be sure that the game was a thoroughly enjoyable high-quality JRPG game. This was the case from the first game to the 9th, and some of those games are not only considered the best JRPG's in existence, but some of the best video games overall.
Then something very strange happened. Square stopped making JPRGs, at least for the Final Fantasy series. I would even go so far as to say that Square stopped making Final Fantasy games. Instead, they started making completely different games with the name "Final Fantasy" artificially slapped onto them.
Final Fantasy XIII is quite infamous. However, that trend didn't start with it. It actually started with Final Fantasy X. The HD version recently appeared on PSN, so I decided to buy it. I trusted Square Enix, and I deeply regret it.
I know I'm going to piss off a lot of people for saying this, but FFX is one of the worst games I have ever played. It's even worse than FF13 (something that I wouldn't have believed I would say in a million years; but I had never played FFX before, so...) I honestly cannot understand why FFX is loved so much; I just can't.
Everything that's wrong with FF13, FFX did it first. Short and extremely linear levels (more linear than even the most brainless run-of-the-mill first-person shooters), no overworld, no exploration, abstract scenery, an overabundance of cutscenes, and the removal of almost everything that makes a JRPG a JRPG.
And when I say "overabundance of cutscenes", I'm not kidding. You know the somewhat tongue-in-cheek criticism of modern video games that they are nothing but an extended cutscene that's occasionally interrupted by short segments of linear gameplay? Well, that's literally true for FFX, with no exaggeration, and in complete seriousness.
The amount of cutscenes in this game is simply staggering. Mind-boggling. Often you can't even walk for five seconds after the last cutscene without yet another cutscene kicking in. They are endless. Cutscene after cutscene after cutscene. It's extremely tedious, frustrating and boring. The only longer break from cutscenes is some of the longer battles. If we don't count battles, there is literally more cutscenes in this game than actual gameplay. (And even if we do count battles, even then it's a close call.) I sometimes had a big urge to scream in frustration when yet another cutscene started after mere seconds of gameplay after the last one. You seriously can't believe how many cutscenes there are in this game until you play it.
And the thing is, those cutscenes are boring. This is not exactly a literary masterpiece. While the story is arguably a lot easier to understand and follow than the obscure mess that was the story of FF13, it's still tedious, uninspired, boring, and even somewhat infantile. (And, naturally, cutscenes cannot be skipped.)
Personally I do not consider this a Final Fantasy game. It's some other completely different game series with the words "Final Fantasy" attached to it. (The same is true for FF13, for that matter.)
What happened to Square Enix? Why did they stop making Final Fantasy games? They were some of the greatest games ever made, and now they aren't making them anymore. For some reason they stopped. They started doing some completely different game series, which are frustrating, tedious and boring, and have nothing to do with JRPGs.
I trusted Square Enix and spent 50€ on this. I didn't think know that the FF13 trend had started with this game. I thought it would be an actual FF game. I feel like cheated.
(I have no idea what kind of game FF12 is because I have never played or seen it, but considering FFX and FF13, I'm not expecting it to be any better. And I'm not having high hopes for FF15 either. It will probably be just another entry in this new non-FF game series, although I hope I will be pleasantly surprised. I won't be buying it before I know for sure, though.)
literallyemphasis
The thing with RPGs is they are the old fashioned way to tell a story. It was fine for older generations of consoles, when white-on-blue text was the only way to tell a story; but as games progressed, there became more ways to relay things to the player. While some RPGs try to stay in that modernity and manage it well (see: No Man's Sky), some don't use the vast infinity of ways to tell a story to the player, to relay - what is most important - the magic of a game to a player, and that is my opinion.
And the thing is, it's not like Square Enix isn't publishing actually good JRPGs even today. For example, Bravely Default is a fantastic JRPG. And it's not even a question of trying new things and new game mechanics, because this game does innovate and use new mechanics, but it still manages to keep the essentials of what makes a good JRPG a good JRPG.
(Of course it's hard to say how much involvement Square Enix had on developing the game. It was published by them, but developed by Silicon Studio. I have no idea how much Square Enix participated in the development. I'm assuming they did at some level at least, and made the important decisions on eg. the game mechanics and the overall style of the game.)
And the thing is, those cutscenes are boring. This is not exactly a literary masterpiece. While the story is arguably a lot easier to understand and follow than the obscure mess that was the story of FF13, it's still tedious, uninspired, boring, and even somewhat infantile. (And, naturally, cutscenes cannot be skipped.)
It's just a matter of taste. A movie can be good, even though there is no gameplay in it at all, so there's nothing preventing a game with lots of cutscenes from being good either.
I think religion is interesting, and since that was a big part of FFX, it made it interesting and unique. The game also has a cool atmosphere, pretty good music and a typical decent FF gameplay. FFXV also looks really cool, from a purely artistic point of view at least. Hope it comes to PC. I think Final Fantasy games have always been pretty linear.
There are a lot more games than just RPGs that are basically just movies with some gameplay in them nowadays. There are a few games I played where I promptly thought to myself "Why did I waste my money on this? The game is so SHORT!".
That's my problem with the last two gens of gaming. Only Nintendo seemed to have stuck with the fact a game should be played. The Wii U has many of my favorite games this generation.
My point is, there are quite a few games that aren't worth the $60-$90 price tag this gen.
FFX is indeed extremely linear, i loved the story though and found it quite touching, to each their own i guess. Once you get close to the end, though, you'll get an option to visit a bonus dungeon (Omega Ruins), which can be quite challenging. There's also monster arena, dark aeons and Penance. And even Anima and the ultimate weapons are relatively well hidden. Story pretty much ends at this point and real gameplay kicks in. In terms of endgame/postgame this entry in the series definitely delivers, not sure if it's what you're looking for though, because it's mostly about grinding and fighting and less about exploration.
FF12 is one of the most open final fantasies out there, if not the most open one. Even more so than ff7/ff8 in my opinion. The world is quite vast, the game gives you enough freedom to explore a little bit here and there, fight optional (and sometimes difficult or weird) battles, letting you take a break from the story and enjoy the world on your own. And at some point (again, close to the end) the freedom can get overwhelming, and probably requires a walkthrough in several spots :p It's a quite unique game. It features creepy and challenging optional areas like the underground levels of Pharos, the infamous but captivating Great Crystal, the 50 million HP Yiazmat boss that takes 3-5 hours to beat without ZJS, fishing minigame, cryptic secrets (Zodiac spear anyone?), several whole optional areas and so on. But, on the other hand, story can get boring real fast due to overabundance of politics and lack of fancy traditional final fantasy stuff. Seriously, so much politics, and the villains arent even interesting. With an exception of Cid, of course. I would recommend this game, but it's a bit controversial due to it being a dark horse.
I agree with your general points about Square and the modern FF franchise though. Those are totally different games nowadays, and i have consistently failed to enjoy each of the ff13 arc games. My expectations for ff15 are farily low.
And the thing is, it's not like Square Enix isn't publishing actually good JRPGs even today. For example, Bravely Default is a fantastic JRPG. And it's not even a question of trying new things and new game mechanics, because this game does innovate and use new mechanics, but it still manages to keep the essentials of what makes a good JRPG a good JRPG.
Bravely Default had fantastic mechanics. But I've always considered the most important part of an RPG to be the story. And Bravely Default has an extremely weak story.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
There are a lot more games than just RPGs that are basically just movies with some gameplay in them nowadays. There are a few games I played where I promptly thought to myself "Why did I waste my money on this? The game is so SHORT!".
It's just that I expected more from Square.
(And btw, FFX is not short. It's in fact too long, considering the amount of cutscenes and how boring they are. We are talking about 40+ hours or so.)
Bravely Default had fantastic mechanics. But I've always considered the most important part of an RPG to be the story. And Bravely Default has an extremely weak story.
I rather liked Bravely Default's story, the stakes became surprisingly epic once you got to the actual boss. I think the execution of the lead-in to the ending was lacking, basically the middle of the game is a boring grindfest with some actually challenging Asterisk fights, but the story was alright and the mechanics were fantastic as you say.
I do tend to value my RPG game's mechanics over most everything else, which may be why I am more tolerant of Bravely Default's flaws, and I am looking forward to Bravely Second, coming ... eventually.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
I made the same "mistake" with Bravely Default as I often make with JRPGs, and that's that I level-grinded too much, and consequently the ultimate final boss was outright trivial to beat. That always feels a bit of a disappointment. Well, the rest of the game was excellent nevertheless.
(To be fair, that problem is not easy to solve. If enemies "level up" with you, then that removes the sense of achievement, of becoming stronger, because now you are always the same relative strength with enemies. This may actually feel worse than being able to become uber-strong and sweep the floor with the final boss with one hand tied behind your back.)
Your actual level mattered much less in Bravely Default than your job levels and party composition did. There are some party combinations in that game that simply destroy everything they are pitted against, and combinations that will always struggle.
I don't think having enemies level up alongside the player is as much of a problem as people think it is, when it is done properly. When there are new abilities on the enemy side making the fight an actual challenge, rather than just a numerical increase making the fight longer, it can be rewarding to try a fight at a low level and then try it again at a high one.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Then something very strange happened. Square stopped making JPRGs, at least for the Final Fantasy series.
Square Enix happened. FFX had its load of drawbacks, but it had some interesting twists and innovative mechanics there as well. After the merger, however, virtually the entire output of the combined company has comprised of remakes, rehashes, rereleases, and other forgettable drivel. As you pointed out, the very best SE releases (as far as I'm concerned, at least) weren't even developed by SE to begin with, so it's not like it takes someone's weak concept and slaps on some awesome mechanics; the other way around is infinitely more plausible.
Warp wrote:
And when I say "overabundance of cutscenes", I'm not kidding. You know the somewhat tongue-in-cheek criticism of modern video games that they are nothing but an extended cutscene that's occasionally interrupted by short segments of linear gameplay? Well, that's literally true for FFX, with no exaggeration, and in complete seriousness.
I feel this trend started in the PS1/N64 era and has been getting worse every generation since (don't play MGS4, seriously) as a way to artificially pad playing time in the absence of truly engaging gameplay. Making cutscenes on game's own engine is super cheap and super easy compared to designing a clever battle, a complex area, or an innovative mechanic.
(That being said, can anyone point me to a JRPG that has both a mature, non-entirely-predictable, well-told story and an engaging, non-grindy, non-overly-padded gameplay? FF6 was good, but I really want characters and story that aren't a bunch of cliches put together and dumbed down to a level of a 8 year old. As much as I love Square's early output, this ain't it. I don't need anything realistic, just internally consistent and non-stupid.)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Have you looked at the Persona games, moozooh? People told me that Persona 4 (for example) was grindy, but I spent next to no time grinding and instead worrying about party composition and skill inheritance.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Lost Odyssey and Eternal Sonata might be somewhat like what you are looking for (although I'm not exactly sure about the "overly-padded gameplay" part... I think both games were fine.)
I actually remember hearing lots of good stuff about Lost Odyssey, but unfortunately right now I have nothing to play it on: my NTSC-J x360 bit the dust a year ago, but as I'm planning to visit Japan later this year, I might pick a new one up and give the game a shot. I'll definitely keep it in mind!
Eternal Sonata looks interesting style- and mechanics-wise, but most everything I see about its story appears to be the stuff that I so dislike in JRPGs. Persona 4 has (unfortunately) already been spoiled to me by a friend (also, isn't it, like, super long and/or repetitive? Or am I confusing it with some Shin Megami Tensei game?).
Much thanks for the suggestions, guys, I definitely got something useful out of this thread. You can get back to lamenting Square/Enix's creative decline now. :P
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Shitty about P4 being spoiled for you. There's still Persona 3 (which is apparently GRITTIER!!!) and possibly the upcoming Persona 5.
I spent about 100 hours on it, much of that was running through dungeons on rainy days hoping for special drops while also completing sidequests.
While I didn't find things particularly repetitive, there is a large amount of Enemy Recolour. It didn't bother me, as I was enjoying the mechanics and the story, some of which had been spoiled for me, but I still wanted to see things through.
To be fair though, most of the bosses become glorified slapping matches if you're adequately prepared, which can reduce the fun factor a bit.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
As far as Final Fantasy go, I only really like FF1~FF6, FF9 and FFT.
Square Enix is dead for me now. But then again, most gaming companies I used to love in the past are now either defunct or merged with something else and completely different than what they used to be.
The traditional JRPG genre is pretty much a dead genre nowadays as well. I can count a few of the good games that were released recently (Bravely Default, Fire Emblem Awakening, Etrian Odyssey IV, Shin Megami Tensei IV, Persona Q - Shadow of the Labyrinth... etc). But that's it. Not only JRPG's, but most other old school video game genres are now pretty much dead too. (Shmups, Beat 'em Ups... etc). They used to be the bomb back then, but nowadays they feel dated and simply look unappealing. Gamers from the current generation are too busy with their FPS, MOBAs and Puzzle Matching mobile games.
Either way, I can't really blame any of this. Video games are constantly transiting. Back in the past video games were all about arcade machines, then we got desktop consoles, then handhelds, and now mobiles. Basically, things change over the time.
It's probably not that bleak; it's just that the mainstream focus shifts from one thing to another (understandable) but small/indie developers have kept pumping out great titles regardless of what major studios do, and that's what is important.
Shmups and versus fighters have enjoyed a very significant renaissance in 2000s with all the most prominent developers releasing some of their best works in that decade, and looking back at the genre those releases were nothing short of amazing, consistently topping the best-of lists. Indie devs have considerably upped their standards in this time as well, producing notable commercial hits (Crimzon Clover is a good example that started as a one-man doujin project that ended up in arcades a few years later and receiving worldwide acclaim among genre enthusiasts).
Love towards 2D platformers, a genre that was almost completely forsaken from about mid-90s to mid-00s outside of a few titles belonging to long-established franchises, was reinvigorated with the advent of various digital download platforms, tools such as GameMaker, and a few inspiring independent releases such as Cave Story.
Long story short, if we're looking for quality games of unpopular genres, we shouldn't look up to large companies at this point. They are, for the most part, extremely conservative and unwilling to take on stuff that wouldn't sell, so you should rather expect to receive a flavor-of-the-month title or a rehash more often than not. Instead, the attention is probably best taken on independent and crowd-funded projects as they have consistently proven that high budget ≠ high quality, and high quality ≠ high budget.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I passed on the PS4 this gen for the moment. Seems like all of it's exclusives are just remasters of games from the PS3.
About the only game I cared about was Bloodborne, but hell, I already have the first three Souls games so I can live without it.
moozooh, you have Cosmic Star Heroine from Zeboyd Games to look forward to, and their other RPG titles are pretty good too.
Gamer Maiden Sonia: Persona Q was so enjoyable!
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
@moozooh:
Everything you said is true. But when I made that post I had large companies in mind only. Sorry for not making that clear. But yeah, Doujin Circles/Indie are the way to go without a doubt.
Many great Doujin/Indie shmups were released not too long ago. Titles include Crimzon Clover, Trouble Witches, Stella Vanity, Akashicverse, eXceed3rd, TWIlight INSanity, TWIlight refRAIN, and list goes on and on. There are a bunch of them.
Same thing goes for side scrollers. We got Cave Story, Rosenkreuzstilette, Koumajou Densetsu 1 and 2, Crescent Pale Mist, Grief Syndrome... etc.
Fighters include Melty Blood, Big Bang Beat, Ougon Musou Kyoku, Vanguard Princess... etc.
It's in fact good that Doujin/Indie circles exist to keep old school alive. I greatly admire the effort they put in their games. Those games are not made with profit in mind. They are a labor of love.
I actually remember hearing lots of good stuff about Lost Odyssey, but unfortunately right now I have nothing to play it on: my NTSC-J x360 bit the dust a year ago, but as I'm planning to visit Japan later this year, I might pick a new one up and give the game a shot. I'll definitely keep it in mind!
I have no idea about the Japanese release, but at least here (and perhaps in the Japanese version) there's an infamous problem about the game disks. The game comes in 4 DVDs (yes, it's that long), with the first three discs being in the normal slot, and the fourth in a paper envelope. And it's this last disc that's the problem: As the disc has been stored for years now, the paper in the envelope has stuck onto the readable surface of the DVD, creating a layer of paper stuff that makes the disc unreadable. You'll probably get reading errors. I had this problem too.
I read online about a fix. It sounds a bit crazy, but it worked: Dip the disc into boiling water for about 10 seconds, and then immediately dry it with a paper towel. Repeat if needed. Because nothing else worked, I tried this method, and it did indeed work.
(Since the Xbox 360 supports installing the contents of the game disc into the console's hard drive, I recommend always doing that. Not only does it improve loading times, at the same time it's a check that the entire disc is readable. And once it's installed onto the hard drive, you don't have to worry about the disc anymore, other than its header being readable.)
The traditional JRPG genre is pretty much a dead genre nowadays as well. I can count a few of the good games that were released recently (Bravely Default, Fire Emblem Awakening, Etrian Odyssey IV, Shin Megami Tensei IV, Persona Q - Shadow of the Labyrinth... etc). But that's it.
I liked Tales of Vesperia. (In fact, I'm betting most of the Tales games are good. It's just that I haven't had the chance to play many of them because they are so console-exclusive.)
I also think Infinite Undiscovery and Star Ocean The Last Hope were ok. (Also most other Star Ocean games are probably ok.)
Same thing goes for side scrollers. We got Cave Story, Rosenkreuzstilette, Koumajou Densetsu 1 and 2, Crescent Pale Mist, Grief Syndrome... etc.
It's not like the big boys are being quiet in that front either. I thought Ori and the Blind Forest was absolutely marvelous. (It's a really gorgeous-looking metroidvania game with high production values and good difficulty spikes, ie. it's not just a casual game.)
At least when in high school, I got big kicks out of Final Fantasy X. It was the first PS2 game I ever played. Not sure how well I'd respond to it now... Guess I'll pick up the HD re-release if I ever find it for cheap and find out.
I have no idea about the Japanese release, but at least here (and perhaps in the Japanese version) there's an infamous problem about the game disks.
Thanks for the head's up. The reason I want a Japanese Xbox is for other games I have that happen to be region-locked to NTSC-J; if I pick up Lost Odyssey it will be a local PAL version (so the fix you posted may end up warranted).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
