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Post subject: Super Monkey Ball Touch & Roll
Player (68)
Joined: 2/27/2009
Posts: 13
Location: Sweden
I started working on a TAS of this game. So far the first world is done exept for the stupid credit mini-game. I'm not too sure if this is a good game to TAS. Seems like only half of it will be actual gameplay. And having to see the same 2 minute long mini-game after every world is probably gonna be very boring for the viewer. http://www.speedyshare.com/765651289.html But the later stages might make up for it. What do you guys think?
Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
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From what I saw before it desynced (I tried .9.4 and .9.4+, desynced at the same point in both), it looks pretty good so far. depending on how you manage later stages, it could be pretty entertaining to watch more.
Player (68)
Joined: 2/27/2009
Posts: 13
Location: Sweden
I made a quick calculation, and apparently there is going to be at least 55 minutes of end credits total. I don't know about you, but to me that sounds like a little to much for a serious TAS. It's better if I edit out the credit part and upload it all to Youtube instead. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucdqm1akSQY I kept the end credit in, just to show you how long it really is. It's almost 5 minutes and gets rather boring, especially if you have to watch it 12 times. Sorry about the bad quality, I don't have any good video editing programs.
Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
I can't actually comment on the end credits for this game, but every other monkey ball game I've played allows you to skip the credits after going through them once. I just finished watching the youtube video, which was of questionable quality, but I was pretty entertained. I didn't even skip any of the credits, but saw that you dropped the baby after a bit. so a couple of questions: 1) what version of desmume are you using to record this, and which version of the game? 2) does using a different monkey (eg. gon gon) have an effect on the physics?
Post subject: Super Monkey Ball Touch & Roll
Joined: 3/7/2011
Posts: 23
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This is the first Super Monkey Ball game that uses Worlds rather than difficulties. The game has 12 different worlds, and each one is unlocked by beating the previous world(s). In the game there are 2 levels with secret goals, and getting both of them unlocks world 11. After getting these secret goals, you need to collect 2006 bananas in total to unlock the final world. Getting these 2006 bananas would most likely consist of "grinding" on one stage with a ton of bananas to collect. This doesn't sound like the most interesting thing in the world, but the rest of the game would make a very entertaining run, I'd say on par with the gamecube versions of the game. Any suggestions on what kind of movie to make of this game? Or maybe if trading time for entertainment value is overall better for the banana collecting part? [edit] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oezy7jesCaQ Here is an excellent example of the kinds of crazy stuff that can happen in the game! Thanks to MisterFladdermus for making a few TAS videos of the game.
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Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706
Very, very cool :)
Current Project: - Mario Kart 64
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
I agree, looks like it should make an excellent TAS. Regarding the banana issue, what you might want to do is make two runs -- one that does all the normal levels (including world 11), and one that starts from a savefile to do the last world. You'd need to include a movie that generates the savefile to prove its validity, but it doesn't need to be tool-assisted. Alternately, if you have a decent idea of how many bananas you could obtain "naturally" over the course of playing each level once, then you'd have a better idea of just how much grinding there'd be. If it's not too much then you could do the whole thing in one movie. But my main concern there is that you'd be making detours in each level to pick up bananas, and this really seems like a game where you should be aiming for fastest in-game time for each level (like with the Sonic games), for better comparison with the world record times.
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The game makes it so you can't start collecting bananas for the counter to unlock World 12 until after you beat the first 11 worlds, so realistically ALL of it would be grinding, unless I decide to start from world 1 again and go for high scores rather than fastest times. (High scores require you to collect all bananas on a stage.) I personally think this would be a very good idea, so all stages in the game get played twice (besides world 12), once for time and once for score. I'm playing through the game again in real time to see how many stages I would need to play through this way (or how many times I would need to grind.) I will also think about making a separate run for world 12 if the other ideas don't work. Thanks guys for the feedback :)
Joined: 4/17/2014
Posts: 3
Somebody else and I are single-segment learners of this game and we always start runs with full save files. Maybe that is what you do for a TAS. People on SRL besides me and my friend have done a race where they started with full save files, so maybe that's how every run, including a TAS, should work.
Player (148)
Joined: 4/18/2015
Posts: 17
Posting here to say I'm starting a TAS of this game, but no promises of ever finishing it. The people in the Monkey Ball community have not started routing the banana grinding, but we will get around to it if the TAS ever gets that far.
Editor, Experienced player (847)
Joined: 5/2/2015
Posts: 696
Location: France
May be going along with Silverbawxer for the TAS once he finishes Super Monkey Ball Jr. Expert EDIT: Confirmed he will work on both at the same time, we will be doing a All Worlds TAS (120 levels on speed + 110 levels for score for the banana grinding) Surprisingly getting every single banana leaves us with 1900, leaving us with less than a world of grinding
Editor, Experienced player (847)
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Sorry for doubleposting, but this is the 2006 banana route we have at the moment: http://puu.sh/hAHO9/cdf47b5f7c.txt This has been double-checked for every single level in-game, thanks to Silverbawxer The plan is to replay all stages to get all 1900 bananas as fast as possible, then grind for the rest All we need is a grinding route for the last 106 bananas, but this wil be done much much later in the TAS I do not know if this works as a goal? because the fastest round would be to grind 5 levels over and over, but that would be not entertaining to watch at all for a TAS, the reason why we decided this goal instead
Editor, Experienced player (847)
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So it's been a month, and what happened? Well, don't get your hopes up; we're still stuck on 1-3 (stupidly hard level). Silverbawxer has taken a break from TASing, and in the meantime, I've found a ton about the game.. I'm going to say I desesperatly need help. This is probably one of the hardest, if not the hardest DS game out there in terms of pure skill, innovation, and shitty physics engine. Hit me up if interested (send a PM). No particuliar experience is needed, motivation is (because it's going to take a hella long time with 330 levels) First off, basic explainations about the game. SMB:T&R is a hella hard platformer. In it, you control a monkey in a ball trying to get to the goal, and the rest is a sort of careful manuvering and ludicrous bouncing around to get to the goal.. because instead of controlling your character, you control the entire level instead! (Well, this is actually not true because the physics engine of this game is extremely wierd, but I'll get to that later.) The great thing is that this is the only game in which you can perform an extremely wide array of strategies for each level. Some may be painfully easy, some may be pixel-perfect bouncing on edges of terrain. Each level has been nearly optimised over the years to the point it looks like TASing (see http://www.cyberscore.me.uk/game/250) For clarification later, all controls I refer to are on the touch screen (aka up right means put the stylus as far up right as possible on the touch screen if we were on a normal DS) The speed numbers are as on the speed-o-meter (on bottom left on screen, which means you don't even have to search the ram for your speed!) The character will be refered as Aiai (his name). So, here is what I've found about the game: Starting boost Widely known (not discovered by me). When you start a level, you actually fall from the air a little into the starting point, giving you 40 speed. This can be abused: at the start of a level, hold either top right or top left. You will bounce, then 2 frames before landing, change direction to top left or top right. This will make you go slighty faster. The direction in which you start the boost seems to have no effect. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WdJsnp-ubA Diagonal movement, air time and ways to go fast Like in all Super Monkey Ball games (except Jr.), going diagonnaly is faster, and having air time makes you go insanely fast (see Air Time section). To go fast, the best way is: * if possible, find a way to be airbone * otherwhise, bounce on solid objects as much as possible (just entering in contact with an solid object, no matter what it is, gives a solid speed boost) Air Time Alright, this is where it gets wierd. I have done a lot of experimentation on this. What happens when you are airbone? First off, your speed is no longer limited to the feable 70 speed but can instead be infinite. Second (and the biggest find by far) you can control your movement while in air. This is huge, because while you are airbone you don't sit there doing nothing: you can actually MODIFY where you go, but not go faster! This act of modifying your velocity while airbone is what I call 'tweaking'. For example, if you hold up while in air, you will actually go.. upwards. Tweaking I'll start this section by saying that 'inputing' is the act of doing an input on the touch screen. If you do this while airbone, it will: * not change your current velocity (speed) * for every frame of input on the touch screen in a direction, move the target of your landing (aka where you land) in that direction, and then immediatly start moving Aiai towards that direction: basically moving your angle of landing. If you tweak right, you will land further right. Subtle Tweaking I'll talk about the hardest variant of tweaking; subtle tweaking. Subtle tweaking is done by pressing in the center of the touchpad. Normally, the touchpad is used to move the field, so when it's in the center, it only moves ever so slightly the field. But in air, this can be abused: if you tweak but with inputs at the center of the touchpad, you will move your angle extremely slightly towards that direction! I have two examples, compare them side by side: ( http://imgur.com/5enjd40 AND http://imgur.com/MZTo3WF) and ( http://imgur.com/GhARS1n AND http://imgur.com/CnU31tB). I did one frame of subtle tweaking to the left for the first and up for the second. The difference is extremely slight, almonst untracable, but you can see that Aiai's position has changed ever so slightly, by one or two pixels, and his landing angle is now quite different: he will land in a position a few pixels different. All of these are quite big things, and hope it will shape a TAS of this game for the best. I am in quite a dire need of help, so feel free to hit me up with your Skype.
ALAKTORN
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Former player
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
Always wondered myself how people were even able to TAS these games. They’re wonders of optimization nightmares.
Editor, Experienced player (847)
Joined: 5/2/2015
Posts: 696
Location: France
ALAKTORN wrote:
Always wondered myself how people were even able to TAS these games. They’re wonders of optimization nightmares.
Haha, not gonna lie; optimising any of this is going to be hell on earth. There are some extremely hard levels (besides 1-3, curvature, which is so hard there is only one world record holder, silverbawxer himself) I don't even want to touch: 1-4, 1-6, 1-10, 3-3, 4-4, 4-9, 5-6, 6-3, 6-10, 8-3, 8-10 (road to nowhere, this one is extra hard, probably gonna be hardest level in the tas along with 12-10), 10-4, 11-3 (also this one is really hard, it's basically made of a bunch of bumps that make optimising air time a nightmare), 12-1 and 12-10. Funny how a lot of the hardest levels in the game to do in a TAS setting are from World 1.. once we get past that, though, the rest should be much easier.
Editor, Experienced player (847)
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Location: France
Goodbye hours a month of work! So the reason we coudln't do 1-3 for one month is because of a very minor yet devastative oversight.. At the beginning of every stage, there are some stages intros. You can skip them by inputing anywhere on the touchpad. Because it's not important, we just put the c ontiniuous input wherever on the touch screen. The problem is.. one of those frames (one!) got into actual gameplay. Since it got into the first frame of gameplay (aka where Aiai is doing the first bounce right after being dropped down) you can't actually see the influcence of the 'rogue' frame, since the game takes 1 frame to bounce you away from the solid object each time you enter in contact with a solid. Think of it as a trampoline: the trampoline holds you a little bit in when you're bouncing on it to basically send you back up. This is the same thing. Here is two comparative screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/fWw0j First is with the frame mistake, second without. The difference is noticable a lot. This makes me really mad and motivated at the same time, as this run may be getting past 1-3..
Editor, Experienced player (847)
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Just when I think this TAS has alderaly become hard enough to make, I find new glitches.. Basically, it's a variant of falling through objects. I'll formate it nicely: Phasing through solid objects https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6j5rQXAruY This happens usually when you travel so fast (270+ speed, though it can be done with lower). Basically, due to how - I think - the physics engine works, the game accelerates you in a set position while in the air. It only stops when entering in contact with a solid object, in which case it takes 1 frame to propel you to wherever. However, because of your speed, you can actually travel a little bit INSIDE solid objects because the game just makes your position advance a set amount each frame. Normally this isn't a problem, because the game just puts you right back on top of the solid platform, but if you manage to travel more than 50% inside the platform, the game will actually push you down the other way and you will keep your speed. This is a situational glitch I can think only for one use of.. Getting stuck in a solid object Same thing as above (happened to me once) but instead of getting more than 50% of your hitbox in the platform you get exactly 50%. As such, half of the ball is visible and you are kind of stuck in there forever. And now, for the new thing I just found out about yesterday.. Coiling https://youtu.be/5i8QOwfAwmw (I'm calling this Coiling because I discovered this on Coil.) I was practicing the extremely hard Coil strat ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw7WQFIiYZ4) when this happened.. What's happening here is instead of bouncing off the platform, I just get pushed (teleported) on top of it and keep all my speed (sounds familiar?) My guess as to why this happens is that because I got stuck in two objects at once (the starting platform and the purple border) and it caused me to teleport on top of the purple border, because I wasn't in the starting platform enough to be pushed downwards and instead got pushed upwards, but because of the purple border (which is what happens normally, then you bounce) but because of the push I also got stuck in the 'space' between the platform and the purple border, which caused me to teleport right on top of it, phase through the purple border and keep all my speed. Could be used in Coil(?) to get even more speed and bounce off the corner, and other levels with two solid objects on top of each other. EDIT: To clarify, this allows you to get on top of an solid platform if there is another solid platform on top of it (in this case, the border) without losing any speed or bouncing at all.
ALAKTORN
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Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
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Btw, what emulator settings are you using? I recommend turning Bus-Level timing off and also Dynamic Recompiler off.
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Joined: 5/2/2015
Posts: 696
Location: France
Bus-Level timing is on and Dynamic Recompiler is off. I checked all settings, am using DeSmuME 0.9.11 x86. OS is Windows 7 32 bits. The ROM is Super Monkey Ball - Touch and Roll (U)(Trashman). We both have the physical cartridge (Silverboxer has the US one and I have the Europe - French one, though there seems to be no differences) Bus-Level timing is left turned on because the game behaves wierdly without it.
ALAKTORN
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xy2_ wrote:
Bus-Level timing is left turned on because the game behaves wierdly without it.
That’s interesting. That’s the first game I hear that needs BLT on to work correctly. What kind of weirdness happens without it?
Editor, Experienced player (847)
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I take back my claim: originally thought it made diagonal air movement faster, but it was just a desync. I'll redo the entire movie then without Bus-Timing (which makes menus faster) so it will take me a little bit of time, will probably just redo menu and hex-edit the rest. EDIT: All synced up! Saved 38 frames on menu, 12 on level transitions.
Editor, Experienced player (847)
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Level 3 done! Well, not really, but I just did a strat that looks fucking sick for it (15 frames behind human record though) I was experimenting with faster times and got this by accident, decided to go through with it. The movements even sync with the music! Link to video Here is the movie if anyone is interested: http://pastebin.com/9JPtnzWJ Will try to finish this level tommorow. I am very close to finding the perfect angle.
Masterjun
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For some reason, that movie only syncs if I add 14 blank frames at the start of the movie... Is it just me?
Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)
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xy2_ wrote:
I take back my claim: originally thought it made diagonal air movement faster, but it was just a desync. I'll redo the entire movie then without Bus-Timing (which makes menus faster) so it will take me a little bit of time, will probably just redo menu and hex-edit the rest. EDIT: All synced up! Saved 38 frames on menu, 12 on level transitions.
Does that really count as an "improvement"? That's like hopping to another emulator with less lag and say "I improved the movie", isn't it? Not to mention it's not even part of the main game that's timed. :P
Editor, Experienced player (847)
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+2200 rerecords! And still failing hard. The above link is my best attempt, except it doens't have enough speed: it needs exactly ONE MORE SPEED. It also shows me it is improvable, and from what I've calculated 56.81 is the perfect time. Now, how do we get that time? Frame perfect pixel perfect angle perfect bounce on a side. How fun! I'll go back to finishing this later tonight if this physics engine stops being bad. I have a general idea of what to do now..
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