Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Watched your chapter 3 and it looks good. I didn't see any mistakes besides what you already listed. Your chapter 5 plans sound good, with Alena and Taloon you should have all the tools you need. Also, Alena and Ragnar will always fight, so Taloon will be the only who needs to have his action manipulated. With that party you should always be able to make everyone do what you want. I would say the main limiting factor will be getting a good weapon for everyone, so if you can find a good weapon for Ragnar, it may be worthwhile to take him. If I remember right, experience doesn't get split in this game, so 4 chars levelup just as well as 3.
Since you have such great control of luck, I was wondering if you had thought about the Tarot cards or maybe even the chance spell? Most of the useful effects might be negated by bosses, but if not then they will give you some pretty amazing power. Chance would require quite a few levelups though.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
TheAxeMan wrote:
Since you have such great control of luck, I was wondering if you had thought about the Tarot cards or maybe even the chance spell? Most of the useful effects might be negated by bosses, but if not then they will give you some pretty amazing power. Chance would require quite a few levelups though.
I don't plan on leveling up enough to get chance
but I do plan on using the silver tarot cards. If i'm not mistaken, one of the effects is an XP doulbler. There's two possiblilities for this:
1) Kill 1 king metal + xp doulber = insane level up in one fight
2) xp doubler + boss fights = maybe leveling up via king metal not necessary at all.
no. 2 seems the most attractive to me aesthetically. So far I've only fought 2 battles for the purpose of leveling up (including ch 4) It would be nice I it were not necessary for the enitre ch 5!
Also, I ran across an interesting glitch:
http://www.woodus.com/den/games/dw4nes/tips.php
This might have some useful applications.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Chapter 4 complete! (check my site)
this one was WAAAAAAY easier than chapter 3!
total running time 1:03 making this chapter 10min and the shortest one.
The battle with Balzack could have been one round shorter with better optimization. Other than that I think its optimized. I reach and defeat balzaack at lv 1. I use the tarot cards to double xp's and kill off nara. That way mara gets enough levels to get the return spell without wasting time leveling up nara (won't use her anyway except possibly for the above mentioned xps gathering).
This makes brey even more useless, looks like i'll be killing him off in version 2!
any, that brings me to my next request
HHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEELLLLPPPP!!!!
Chapter 5 is going to be a bitch and I am not nearly as familiar with it (I tend to get quit playing the game after I unite all the characters)
Any help with route planning would be of great help.
also what Items & boss fights can be skipped?
Can you skip getting any of the heros? (I doubt it but I've never tried)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Wow, this is going great! As far as chapter 5, I believe you do need all the characters before Balzack moves into Santeem castle, preventing you from advancing. You need to pick up Mara and Nara before going into the cave of betrayal. Chapter 5 starts out pretty linearly, until you get the ship, after which you've just got open sailing. You'll need to collect all the zenithian items and a few other things. You can definitely skip stone of drought, hourglass of regression, and metal babble sword (by far the best sword but takes too long to get.) You may be able to skip flute of uncovering and sphere of silence as well, avoiding a nasty boss fight. Let's see:
Hero starts in his burnt-out hometown
Go through Taloon's tunnel from Branca to Endor -- maybe you'll be lucky and be the 10,000th person through...
In Endor, pick up Mara and Nara
Go back through the tunnel and into the cave of betrayal
The party gets split up and your hero has his first required fight
Pick up symbol of faith and exit cave
give symbol to Hector, he'll give you the wagon and join
Cross the desert, where you can fight large groups of metal slimes if you want
Go to the lighthouse. Pick up the fire of serenity, beat the guardians, and fix the light.
Back to Konenber, Taloon joins and you get the ship.
Now the following may be picked up anytime before climbing zenithian tower:
Pick up Panon in Monbaraba, take him to Stancia to tell a joke to the king so you can get zenithian helm
The zenithian armor is in a cave by the castle of the king who collects small medals, but you need magic key to get in
Ok, some of these things may be movable, perhaps you can get Ragnar first? Anyway:
Go through the Padequa cave to get the padequa seed. Grow it in Soretta and get the padequa root. Give Padequa root to sick Cristo in Mintos and the Chapter 2 gang joins, which means you have thief's key. Brey will join first if you visit Mintos before the cave, not sure if this is necessary though.
Go into the cave by Kievs and get the magic key. In Keeleon castle, beat Keeleon and Ragnar joins, completing the party.
In Santeem castle, beat Balzack. Then you can pick up the magma staff.
Magma staff opens up the pass to Gardenbur.
In Gardenbur you'll be framed for a crime and forced to leave someone while you find the real thief--this is where Brey is most useful :)
The thief is hiding in a nearby cave, go there and whup him. Back in Gardenbur, the queen gives you final key and zenithian shield.
With final key you can go into the royal crypt and pick up the staff of transform. Here are your metal babbles. if necessary you can fight them in the entrance room without final key.
Go through riverton and into the collosus statue. Move it to the other side of the lake, and go to dire palace.
In dire palace use staff of transform to turn into a monster and spy on the meeting with necrosaro.
Go deep into Aktemto mine, into the castle and beat Esturk. Get the gas canister on the way out.
Give gas canister to the dude in riverton and get the balloon.
Take the balloon to the world tree and climb it to find zenithian sword.
Take the balloon to the special island, land and walk around to zenithian tower. You'll need the four zenithian items to get in. Climb the tower to zenithian castle and talk to Master Dragon.
Jump in the hole in the clouds and enter the cave. Go through the cave to the underworld. You'll need to beat four bosses around the underworld to unlock Necrosaro's castle. Then go through Necrosaro's castle and on to beat him and finish the game!
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
if I remember correctly, the ballon is necessary to take panon to stacia
leveling up shouldn't be necessary until esturk (possibly not then either)
What about the casino. Metal babble armor or a meteorite armband would be nice, plus it would be awsome to manipulate luck and catch 4 aces or a royal flush! That would only net me 1000 coins though (I would only be able to buy 2 coins) so I would still have to play the double or nothing.
Anyway thanks for the info. Right now I will concentrate on getting the boat. Then maybe try to sort out all of the tasks and plan some kind of a route. Any suggestions would be nice.
Also, in chapter 4, I missed a chance to use death to get out of atemko cave quicker. That cost me about 30 seconds. So it looks like the 1st four chapters can be completed in under 52 minutes! I probably can get to the boat at about the hour mark.
My estimation at this point is that the entire run (version 2) will end up at just under 2 1/2 hours.
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
You can definitely sail to Stancia, but you have to navigate through some shoals and walk around a bit to get in. It may be faster to use the balloon though. Also casino can get you the metal babble shield, the armor is in the shop in Endor. Not sure how much you can sell the metal babble shield for, but probably a lot. I forget what best payout is, but there is a joker so you can get five of a kind. If you can manipulate the prize in the tunnel you'll get some coins. Double or nothing game will be easier to manipulate than the actual hand dealt though. Not sure how much money you'll need, why not just get all your weapons from manipulated drops? Hmm, according to the gamefaqs monster treasure list, good swords will be tough to get on drops, but you can get the stiletto earrings pretty easily.
The casino bonus from the tunnel is 2000 coins, which would probably make a nice starter pot to work with if you're going to be getting anything from the casino. There's about a 1 in 32 chance of getting the bonus, but it doesn't check until you walk in front of the guard that's standing at the midpoint of the tunnel.. it can be either directly in front of him or the square below, it doesn't matter. Just wait for the right frame to make your move and you'll get it.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
The doulble or nothing would be easier to manipulate, I was suggesting getting a royal flush for entertainment value, If I got the 2000 coins that would mean I could bet a 100 coins (max for 1 pot) and the payout for the Royal would be 50,000 just enough for the shield. The shield isn't necessary though. Id probably get a pair of staffs of jubilation for nara & mara if anything.
Unfortunately you can't sell the shield or any other useful Item from the casino.
The only on is the magic potion which lands you a wooping 23 gold.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
wow
I began working on ch. 5 and I went through the tunnel, and amazingly I got the 2000 coins without trying! I was planning on skipping it but I might as well take it!
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Just thought I would update my progress. I've defeated the imposters. It was a royal pain in the ass until I realized I could use Expel!
Right now I'm fighting the Lighthouse bengal. My 1st battle with the games brilliant AI! What makes it worse is that I have mara and nara. Two spell casters really makes things difficult. To top it off, mara (on normal setting) only wants to cast FIREBAL on the FLAMERS. Needless to say, the spell does not work!
Expel works on the flamers thought. So I will try have my hero cast expel the 1st two rounds while trying to get my party to fight the lighthouse bengal. Which will be difficult since the AI has a knack for attacking the same enemy the hero.
I will update my WIP once I defeat them.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
some useful info:
Hr: lv 7 only basic equipment (copper sword, basic clothers)
spells: expel, healmore, return, firebal
Nara: lv 1, heal spell, silver tarot cards (if I can get her to use them)
Mara: lv 8, fire bal, blaze, return, outside
Hector: always insists on building up power!
Joined: 8/25/2004
Posts: 44
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA
You may be able to get nara to use the silver tarrot cards if you try either the "use no MP" or "try out" tactics in battle, but chances are "use no MP" will be more useful, as mara and hector would probably do batshit insane actions with "try out," but I think the odds of a character using something in their inventory is increased with one of these two tactics.
edit: Can you even use tactics right now?
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Fro Jackson wrote:
edit: Can you even use tactics right now?
yes
I think "try out" is the best chance to use the silver tarot cards, but they really aren't useful except for xp doulbing.
The only other positive outcomes are:
bikill - useless when everyone gets criticals, actually it prevents the chancde of them
surround - basically useless since I manipulate missed attacks
healusall - healing shouldn't be necessary here
expel - somewhat useful but hero has it anyway
Joined: 8/25/2004
Posts: 44
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA
You could manipulate the silver tarot cards to cast expel, therefore freeing up the hero from having to do so and thus allowing him to attack and save MP. It could be helpful later on to get some enemies out of the way in big battles. (Although admitingly, none come to mind)
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
My .fcm file has been updated
I have just finished defeating Keelon and gained Ragnar into the party.
Thats a total of 4 boss fights already. Each one can be optimized better, but they are pretty close.
One debate I had was whether or not to kill off Mara in the lighthouse bengal fight. Had I kept her alive, she would have learned outside, saving me time in the upcoming cave (since I didn't have Brey yet). I died to leave the cave but that lost considerable time compared to an outside spell. But I gained time because of the time it would have taken for her to make her boneheaded actions in the fight (could NOT stop her from casting firebal on the flamers!) plus the time saved not leveling her up.
It seems I made the right decision because even in the fight with keelon, all characters gained experience (I thought that if you don't have the wagon with you, they don't get the expercience). So that means it would level her up again, and then again for every boss fight after. In version 2, I will consider killing off cristo in a random battle so I don't have to level him up either.
As of right now, I am past all the linear parts and am somewhat lost as what order to do things. Any ideas?
some of mine so far:
-Get panon while I'm nearby
-wait to go to stacia until i'm near izmut
-Defeat Balzaack II soon (return to endor and sail west) in order to get magma staff.
-Use flying shoes (yes ragnar still has them) to quickly get to izmut instead of sailing around the continent. Even after climbing the tower and jumping off, I think I will save time.
Unfortunately that all I have, I'll have to do some FAQ reading before going any further.
Are you sure Ragnar still has the Flying Shoes? That's not it's supposed to be, as the shoes are one of a few chapter-specific items (Flying Shoes, Iron Safe, Sphere of Silence) that are removed at the completion of the respective chapter. Anyway, it would appear that particular scenario drops out.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Paulygon wrote:
Are you sure Ragnar still has the Flying Shoes? That's not it's supposed to be, as the shoes are one of a few chapter-specific items (Flying Shoes, Iron Safe, Sphere of Silence) that are removed at the completion of the respective chapter. Anyway, it would appear that particular scenario drops out.
you're right, The last time I played this I used a code that caused me to keep them. IF he still had them they would return to the tower as usual.
Also, I can't get panon yet. You have to go all the way to the king of stancia and then return, get him and return all the way back. Unfortunately, the trip through the castle is very long.
It seems that most everthing is required, very long and tedious, and no way to skip. This chapter is going to be very long!
I tried to warp pools (what are they actually called) They connect some key points in the game but you can't access them because you don't have the boat (or balloon) on the other side.
I'm trying to find ways to minize the amount of sailing around the game, but It's not working out too well.
I registered here just to tell you how awesome this is. I had checked out the previous authors attempt, but was sad when he didn't continue it.
This was great though, so far. I only watched it briefly (on my lunchbreak at work), and I skipped through some parts, but I was wondering a couple things:
-When Taloon is collecting the King's request, is it possible for him to walk only one step and encounter? Or would this throw off the random of the drop item?
-I never did the King's request (when not time attacking) because it took a while. Instead, I'd do one of the tricks on that page you linked to, where I'd get the sword of malice at the first shop, not sell it, and later buy a bunch and sell them with Neta. I'd suppose you tried that angle and it took too long?
-That door trick on that page is intriguing. Would it be of any benefit at Keeleon castle? It would be wild if somehow you could get in there without having to have Orin, although I'd be curious as to what would happen when you need to escape and Orin fends the guards off. It's probably not possible even.
Those are just some quick things off the top of my head. I might be able to think of some things later on if I watch in more detail.
Can't wait until your next version.
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Ok, watched it all and it looks great. I love this game, but I have to agree that it doesn't translate as well to a timeattack as others. The door trick on that site needed the treasure map, which isn't picked up until chapter 5. To kill off Cristo, you could either use the battle for the earrings or just put him in the party against Keeleon and have Keeleon nail him. I hadn't thought about travel doors, but maybe after you get final key there might be one you could use.
There are a few other things I thought I'd mention. You sail right by the Royal Crypt, and you have your 3 hardcore party members. Why not mosey in and whup a metal babble or three, which I think you can get in one fight. The extra levels would really help on Keeleon, and also on Balzack and Bakor, coming up. In particular, Taloon could use a lot more strength since he doesn't have much of a weapon. Since you have to walk around so much, would it be worthwhile to get six small medals for a sword of miracles for him? Talking to the king will take some time, but I think you can do this without a whole lot of extra movement. You'll be near his castle to get the zenithian armor anyway. Another thing, for 500 of your 2000 coin prize you can get a wizard ring, which will cover your MP for the rest of the game. May or may not be worthwhile though, depending on how much you actually need it and how easy it is to hit inns when you need to. I forget, does Santeem show up on the return list in chapter 5? If so, you should step in as you travel by it towards Keeleon.
Joined: 8/25/2004
Posts: 44
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA
TheAxeMan wrote:
There are a few other things I thought I'd mention. You sail right by the Royal Crypt, and you have your 3 hardcore party members. Why not mosey in and whup a metal babble or three, which I think you can get in one fight.
Can you fight a metal babble in the very first room? I think you need the final key to get into the actual crypt.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Ryan8bit wrote:
I registered here just to tell you how awesome this is. I had checked out the previous authors attempt, but was sad when he didn't continue it.
Thanks
-When Taloon is collecting the King's request, is it possible for him to walk only one step and encounter? Or would this throw off the random of the drop item?
it is probably possible to do it in every step but this is a trial run. I will do my best in the next version. The problem is that the encounter rate for this chapter is very low (helpful for a non TAS). The odds are very unlikely and at the time I didn't have an effect plan for manipulating this particular type of luck. I do now :) But it will still be pretty tedious.
-I never did the King's request (when not time attacking) because it took a while. Instead, I'd do one of the tricks on that page you linked to, where I'd get the sword of malice at the first shop, not sell it, and later buy a bunch and sell them with Neta. I'd suppose you tried that angle and it took too long?
that would be slower. I tried many methods but that ended up being the fastest. Getting a sword of malice would take awhile since you have to talk to your boss, wait for someone to show up and sell it to you. Then later you have to wing back and forth to buy and sell them. It may not seem like it but buying 14 items takes a very long time but it does (about 4 seconds per item).
-That door trick on that page is intriguing. Would it be of any benefit at Keeleon castle? It would be wild if somehow you could get in there without having to have Orin, although I'd be curious as to what would happen when you need to escape and Orin fends the guards off. It's probably not possible even.
I really hope I can use this glitch in the run. If you notice I pick up the map in hopes of using it. As far as I know this is the only graphic glitch in any NES rpg. (one that allows you to have access to places you shouldn't). As far as Keelon, you don't get it in chp 4 and when you return in chp 5, you can't use it because you have to be able to open the door in order to activate the glitch. (I would have loved to be able to skip the magic key entirely)
Those are just some quick things off the top of my head. I might be able to think of some things later on if I watch in more detail.
I look foward to it.
TheAxeMan wrote:
To kill off Cristo, you could either use the battle for the earrings or just put him in the party against Keeleon and have Keeleon nail him. I hadn't thought about travel doors, but maybe after you get final key there might be one you could use.
Hadn't thought of using him in the keelon fight. Might as well. I left the 4th slot open to try to save time (and make the fight easier to deal with) but this might be better.
Royal Crypt, and you have your 3 hardcore party members. Why not mosey in and whup a metal babble or three, which I think you can get in one fight. The extra levels would really help on Keeleon, and also on Balzack and Bakor, coming up. In particular, Taloon could use a lot more strength since he doesn't have much of a weapon.
actually he has NO weapon! (which is funny since in the keelon battle he trips and his WEAPON hits keelon for a critical!). Also, leveling up isn't necessary. At best it would shave a round off of the battles, but it would cost time for the battle plus the long time it takes to level up.
You need the final key to get to the screen with metal babbles. Also I have to go there eventually anyway, so any leveling I do will be then. Plus I think it look better to defeat these bosses (especially Balzack) at such low levels.
Since you have to walk around so much, would it be worthwhile to get six small medals for a sword of miracles for him? Talking to the king will take some time, but I think you can do this without a whole lot of extra movement. You'll be near his castle to get the zenithian armor anyway.
Using the gates, I can return to mintos, walk right, use final key and gate right to the island. So it wouldn't be much of a detour. So, I wouldn't have to wait until getting the armor. I might try that. So are there six convenient medals, at this point? I don't know where most of them are.
Another thing, for 500 of your 2000 coin prize you can get a wizard ring, which will cover your MP for the rest of the game. May or may not be worthwhile though, depending on how much you actually need it and how easy it is to hit inns when you need to.
AWSOME. I hated that I had to use an Inn before the lighthouse battle. With luck manipulation I could use the ring as much as I wanted to. This will help out a lot later on (i'm definately not going to have enough MP to use return and outside so much). Thanks, this will definatley used in version 2!
I forget, does Santeem show up on the return list in chapter 5? If so, you should step in as you travel by it towards Keeleon.
it does show up on the return list and that would be faster. More time savers!
More on the glitch:
It seems talking to Rosa isn't necessarly, so the glitch will be unnessary there. I haven't tested past the staff of change yet, so there may still be hope.
Also, I really hope I can find some way to reduce the amount of walking and sailing around that seems to be required. Otherwise the zenthian equipment part of this run might not be as interesting as the rest.
Getting a sword of malice would take awhile since you have to talk to your boss, wait for someone to show up and sell it to you. Then later you have to wing back and forth to buy and sell them. It may not seem like it but buying 14 items takes a very long time but it does (about 4 seconds per item).
I guess I just thought it would be a cool factor if you walked right in and the first customer sold the sword. I don't know if that can happen though.
As far as Keelon, you don't get it in chp 4 and when you return in chp 5, you can't use it because you have to be able to open the door in order to activate the glitch.
Whoops, that's right. Well, what other places might it be useful? Necrosaro's castle? Esturk's castle?
You need the final key to get to the screen with metal babbles.
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure I leveled up there outside the gate before, but the random encounter with babbles was really low (much lower than inside). Not that it matters, I agree with the defeats at the lowest levels possible.
So are there six convenient medals, at this point? I don't know where most of them are.
paraphrased from an FAQ:
-In the old ship in Konenber (must be before the lighthouse trip)
-In Taloon's ship (must be before it sets sail)
-Mintos next to the well
-On the ground at the shrine East of Mintos
-In house near seaside village
-In the cannon in seaside village
-Center Island in Riverton
-And two in Stancia
I just kind of wonder if all the little detours will make the prize worthwhile. And the sword of miracles is dropped by the Infernus Shadow much later, which is a mandatory battle anyways.
About the casino, I would love to see some fine poker like you mentioned. But the odds of being dealt a Royal Flush (even including the joker) I estimate are about 325,000 to 1. Now, being able to draw again would make it more likely, but only about four times more likely. So I don't know if those odds could be manipulated in a timely fashion, but it would be damn cool to see.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Alright I need some help.
Balzack II has HP regeneration.
How much does he regenerate per turn?
Can someone hack in and find that info. I've checked Gamefaqs and other places and no one seems to know.
The amount appears to be slightly variable, with an average of about 50 HP recovered per round. The values ranged from 47 to 55, but I'm not positive that those are the limits.
The only way to find out the exact amount of recovery (and Balzack's HP) each time is to use the debugger, set a breakpoint, and view the memory once the breakpoint has been triggered. I can give you the details if you're interested.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
I'm very interested, its about time I learn how to do this stuff.
It suprises me that is a variable amount, perhaps I can manipulate that.
So he has 500 hps and regenerates approx 50 a turn? Thats going to take awhile.
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
If the fights are going to get long, have you thought about putting Ragnar in? It should be very easy to make him fight every time, and you're pretty good at getting those crits. I don't see any disadvantage, just an extra hit for your side in each round. Also, can Taloon wiggle his finger and confuse a boss? If so, could you manipulate a critical self-hit? This would be pretty cool.
Also, I don't know if you've thought about this at all, but one way to get weapons for your characters in Chapter 5 is to get them with Taloon in Chapter 3. After filling the order, Taloon could meet some more enemies for easy Broadsword drops, which the hero and Ragnar can use. This won't cover Taloon, but he could buy a Sword of Malice in Mintos, which you have to go through anyway. If you don't have the money, you could have Taloon get some more drops before the end of chapter 3 and sell them. Or just have Ragnar trade his sword to Taloon for a Broadsword, though this would leave you weaponless for Balzack v1. Getting 6 medals for a sword of Miracles seems like it will take too long, but Broadsword and Sword of Malice are decent weapons you can get very easily.
Finally, how sure are we that all insta-kills are out? Beat spell, probably, but what about the Poison Needle? Brey or Mara would become your most powerful attacker.
