No one should worry that Sleepz won't be credited. Sure he will. I never said that all tricks in my run was dicovered by me. When I started creating this run, I didn't thought this discussion to happen.

Yeah, you even mentioned Sleepz in your comments. Um, I'd really like a discription and when you use all of the 1 or 2 frame saving tricks, though. It would make it easier to see how hard you've worked at it. Astheticaly, I like how you jump through enemies in 4-2, even though it's not a new trick. And you don't use wobbling much, but still, I'm glad for things that make it obvious it's not a console run.

Why not make a Hall of Fame for the groundbreaking first runs like Sleepz's to give them credit, then still publish the faster runs? This might help to encourage people to do the first runs even though they will probably be beaten later.

Having watched the side-by-side, i'm gonna have to say yes on it, even though I definitely see Sleepz' point. In the spirit of competition, I just have to defer to the frames saved.

I think I found some possible frame saving in the 2:57:34 SMB RPG run. Think I'll get some yes votes if I fix it?

I would vote Yes, just to make you feel better

No one should worry that Sleepz won't be credited. Sure he will. I never said that all tricks in my run was dicovered by me. When I started creating this run, I didn't thought this discussion to happen.

I think this settle all the discussion. My suggestion is that if sleepz worked hard to find cool tricks and want to be credited for this - which everyone here agrees it's fair - he can write them on the Mario tricks page (if he hasn't done it yet). We should differenciate techniques and routes from perfomances. Most of these videos have been done reading faqs that other people did, and other were done by many people who helped finding improvements. This is part of the game. I think most of this has been originated because people didn't know about Phil's project until it was done. If Phil opened a thread instead, saying that he was going to try to improve this video, would you have helped him, sleepz? I think there's no need to answer. Cheers to all

My suggestion is that if sleepz worked hard to find cool tricks and want to be credited for this - which everyone here agrees it's fair - he can write them on the Mario tricks page (if he hasn't done it yet).

That would be good, of course, but not for that reason. I don't want anyone to "own" those pages or the text on them. They are collaborate documents.

I haven't watched Phil's run yet, but as long as there are no parts that are less entertaining, I don't see the problem with publishing it (see next paragraph to see why). The only problem is that I'm not much of a fan of wobbling which can get kind of annoying. I think I have an idea that would solve at least part of the problem of people not being credited properly. There could be a history page for each game that lists all the TASs done for that game and explains what improvements were made in each one.

I would like to vote yes on this movie, due to the fact that it is faster. But just because of Phil's atitude I'd like to vote no, 'cuse sometimes your coments can be a bit harsh, IMO. In the end, I WON'T VOTE. Nope. I like sleepz run better (since I HATE wobbling) but I feel I can't vote no on personal feelings.

I LIEK COWS.

I think I have an idea that would solve at least part of the problem of people not being credited properly. There could be a history page for each game that lists all the TASs done for that game and explains what improvements were made in each one.

I like this idea.

I'd vote yes if I could. I think Michael's suggestion would work well.

I think I have an idea that would solve at least part of the problem of people not being credited properly. There could be a history page for each game that lists all the TASs done for that game and explains what improvements were made in each one.

Good call. You get to do Rockman, Metroid and SMB1. No, all sarcasm aside this is probably the only way to keep this debate from reoccurring at regular intervals, and the time spent on it is probably worth it in the long run, but it's definitely easy to say "too much work, screw that".

If Phil's run will be accepted, will the run get a star and come to the "best movie"-list like Sleepz's run?

evidently

Well ok then. It’s Bisqwit’s site, so he gets the final decision, and I have to respect that. I didn’t mean to cause such a commotion, and I apologize for that, but if I didn’t say anything about my opinion and kept quite, it would have been a knick on my shoulder. I still think TAS making should concentrate on making cool videos and showing new ideas, and not about lame frame competitions and things the average viewer who would download these clips would ever notice or care about. I also still find it unfair that such an identical run with nothing new but a few frames less should replace mine. I still don’t understand why you would choose to redo a run if you weren’t planning to add anything to it or even get a decent improvement time-wise. It’s like you’re purposely trying to rub it in my face that frames mean more than creativity and new ideas now. The whole reason I bothered doing this run frame by frame is so the person making the next run would have to come up with some new and innovative ideas to improve it (which would get people excited over this run again), and not just get some cheap frames on it and call it a new run. Kinda makes the extra effort seem for nothing since it happened anyway. A request to Phil or Bisqwit, when you do the write-up for this run, I don’t want my name given any special credits. If people are just going to think that it’s put there out of pity, or that I was somehow forcing you to, then I don’t want anything to do with it. If Phil’s new run had some amazing, or at least significant improvements, just watching such a run would have been credit enough for me.

I think most of this has been originated because people didn't know about Phil's project until it was done. If Phil opened a thread instead, saying that he was going to try to improve this video, would you have helped him, sleepz? I think there's no need to answer.

You know I helped Michael when he said he was working on improving my previous SMB2 run, although it was Genisto that submitted the next run. The same would go for anyone else if they just bothered asking me.

I also still find it unfair that such an identical run with nothing new but a few frames less should replace mine.

Here's a hypothetical situation for you, Sleepz. I ran 1:10:53'52 in the race, breaking the record. Next year, someone ran 1:10:52'63 next year. He beat me by less than a second therefore I should keep the record. What? He did it faster, plain and simple. He should get the record. Yes, this site should be about fun and entertainment but we can't get sloppy on the competition part. Don't take this badly but I think you're just sore about being beat.

Here's a hypothetical situation for you, Sleepz. I ran 1:10:53'52 in the race, breaking the record. Next year, someone ran 1:10:52'63 next year. He beat me by less than a second therefore I should keep the record. What? He did it faster, plain and simple. He should get the record. Yes, this site should be about fun and entertainment but we can't get sloppy on the competition part. Don't take this badly but I think you're just sore about being beat.

This isn't like a 100m sprint - in sprint, you compete on your own power. You can't beat someone's record sprint time by watching him run and then fixing a 10ms error he did. In TAS movies, you compete with intellect, and you can always learn from other players' movies or even reproduce them entirely.

And having my run beaten doesn’t bother me. My LoZ, MM3 and previous SMB2 run were all beaten, and I didn’t mind at all. Like I said, I was very pleased about the SMB2 that replaced mine. It just bothers me when someone takes someone else’s run, makes a carbon copy of it, and tries to replace that run without contributing or adding something new.

You're just repeating now, and I already said I accepted Bisqwit's decision for Phil's run to replace mine.

I don't know if anyone cares anymore but I thought of an allegory which I think illustrates one side of this. What if you work as a waiter or waitress in a restaurant of some kind. One of the great things about this job is that you sometimes get lots of tip. As usually (because you don't want to trouble the costumer) you leave him alone when he is about to pay so he can decide if he really want's to leave any extra money or not. Now he walks away and the money is there on the table. Now, what if some evil person comes in and takes your tip while you wait for your customer to get his ass out of there, wouldn't you get mad at that person? It's not really your money because they are there on the table and free for all, but it's not really that bad mannered persons money either since they were meant as tip for you. You surely wouldn't die because of the loss of those few money but one simply doesn't do things like that (except this person on Ricki Lake who actually stole tip!). If I should apply it to frames I guess it's becoming slightly reversed, the more money left and stolen = the fewer frames of improvement. So what I'm trying to say is that this also is sort of sportmanship and manner. And this could also depend on what run it is etc.. I hope that made sense ;)

Good call. You get to do Rockman, Metroid and SMB1. Well I wouldn't be able to do Megaman or Metroid since I don't know a lot about those games, but I could do SMB. I could probably also do SMB3. Btw, do you think there should be a page for each game, or one page for every game? Should only popular games be included? What would be a good name for the page? ImprovementHistoryPage? StratImprovementTimeline?

(Voted yes) DeHacked: I love the side by side AVI's. It really helped me notice subtlties in Phil's movie that I wouldn't have noticed otherwise. I looked forward to more of these. I predict we will need this more as time goes on. Phil: I'd like to see some explanation on those small 1-2 frame improvements. In 4-1 you drop the shyguy and pick up the flurry. It seems this is because Toad can run faster with a flurry. Is this true? I was unaware that he ran at different speeds depending upon the item he was carrying In 6-3 on the 1st ladder, Instead of zipping up it with the Up+Down you come off of the ladder for a split second, land on the ground, and then zip back up. Interesting, it seems to save time but how? (and how much time). In 7-1 Boss fight, did you lose time (I trust that you were thorough and did not) but when side by side it seemed Sleepz caught up with you a little there. I could be just an illusion. Is seems to me that when Birdo appears again that is a sign that you went too far to the left which would cost you some frames. I know you have to wait for the mouth to open anway, but I don't it begins to open until it is on the screen. This is a very good quality movie, I hope everyone's reaction to it doesn't discourage you from submitting more runs in the future. Sleepz: When I watch Phil's movie, it seems like a Phil-type movie (even for reasons other than his trademark wobbling). He made several choices that differed from you (ones that saved time, but others out of personal taste). I don't blame you for being upset, but I think you may not be looking at this movie objectively because of it. Bisqwit: Your 1st you comment sounded like you didn't like Phil making this movie (or at least the way he went about it). After watching it you voted yes. Did you opinion then change? I was suprised at your 1st comment ("Ill will take my time publishing this movie" or something like that). All the Guidelines i've read seem to encourage exactly this type of movie and exactly this level of competition. In addition, nothing on your site encourages or suggests any type of edicate in how one must go about osoleting someone else is run. I don't recall reading anything about informing the current published author that you are working on the run nor anything that suggests you should tell them about your time saving ideas 1st and give them time to improve it themselves. It seems Phil's movie and actions are well within the spirit of these guidelines. Everyone: 1) At some point all NES games that are potentially time-attackable will be published here (if not already). Eventually all cool glitches, tricks, routes, etc. will be found. At that point do we just stop making movies? I think eventually 1 or 2 frames will be considered a big improvement for anygame (even long RPG"s). 2) Typically, when someone does post about small optimizations that can be made in a movie they get comments like "well why don't you just make the movie yourself" Most authors here seem to get annoyed by requests to redo their movies for small optimizations. This seems to be in conflict with the reactions to this movie.

The tip belongs to the waiter who served that party. The author of a TAS doesn't own the right to having his movie be the published run.

I can comment on a few of these. In 4-2, he uses the shyguy as a step for double-jumping so he can evade the upcoming enemy more easily. In 7-1, it's all about the mask letting you in to end the level. This seems to be based on a timer and your character's proximity to the mask. Doing side-by-side runs may be nice, but when games start being really really long and/or the time difference between them is much more significant, I don't think it'll be a good way to compare. If someone beat the current Super Mario RPG run by 4 minutes, I'm not going to do a side-by-side of it. Certainly not the whole way through.

The tip belongs to the waiter who served that party. The author of a TAS doesn't own the right to having his movie be the published run.

Of course not, but this was more in a "manner-way" rather in a "I'm-the-author-forever-moahaha-way". What I meant was that the feeling of slight frustration might be something like that.

I can comment on a few of these. Doing side-by-side runs may be nice, but when games start being really really long and/or the time difference between them is much more significant, I don't think it'll be a good way to compare. If someone beat the current Super Mario RPG run by 4 minutes, I'm not going to do a side-by-side of it. Certainly not the whole way through.

Hmm, I don't think I was suggesting such an effort. In a situation like that you would only need to do a comparison on the small section that was improved. Also, I have no concept of how difficult it is to do an AVI like that. BTW, I check the 7-1 boss fight and Phil is actually does it 3 frames FASTER.