Joined: 6/21/2004
Posts: 247
Location: New Hampshire
I haven't studied the two movies closely, so maybe I'm not really making an informed judgement here, but if someone makes minor adjustments and optimizations to someone else's method of completing a game, shouldn't they still be credited with improving upon that method? I was under the impression that this occured somewhat frequently. Friendly competition and all that. I guess I was mistaken :/ I don't see what's keeping Sleepz from further improving upon Phil's time if he so wishes to, though.
minor edit: Am I the only one who thinks using the term "backstabbing" for this is a little harsh?
Yeah, this topic has nothing to do with 36 frames, except that it's been discussed several times within.
the topic was that the 36 frames made it less entertaining.
Everyone? Who's assuming their opinion is fact now?
I never said my opinion.
Another of your opinions taken as fact. Tell me, why are your opinions fact, and mine make me a noob? Because you have more mindless one-word posts than I do? Ridiculous.
Sorry, that was my opinion :) Along with others.
Perfection to me (note the opinion) is completing the game as fast as possible, while keeping the video as entertaining as possible without losing speed. Check the guidelines:
That is what sleepz did, making it half a second slower for more entertainment.
Gosh, I sure do know a lot about this site for being a noob.
Not all about knowing the site, you need to know how to please the audience as well.
And only the opinions of people like Vatchern
Its good that you reconize :)
Perfection to me (note the opinion) is completing the game as fast as possible, while keeping the video as entertaining as possible without losing speed. Check the guidelines:
That is what sleepz did, making it half a second slower for more entertainment.
Sleepz's didn't knowingly sacrifice this half-second, nor is it that Phil's improvement knowingly sacrified entertainment. It just ended up that way.
But, this brings up a good point. What would happen if these runs were submitted in the opposite order? I mean, say Phil's improvement here was submitted before Sleepz's run that is currently published. How many people would vote it to obsolete the run that it is slower than? None, because the guidelines also say:
Guidelines wrote:
If are aiming for speed and you fail to beat existing speed records, your movie will be rejected
Although this doesn't logically imply that beating a record will automatically make the movie published, it is interesting to look at it from this different perspective.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I could write an entire story of what I think about this all, and my reactions to other peoples reactions in this thread... but I want to be short about it:
I just watched both Phils and Sleepzs runs, and even thought the wobbling didn't bother me that much, it was clear to me that I enjoyed watching Sleepzs run more. That's why I voted no for this submission. (not meaning there was never a more entertaining obsoleted for a faster one, but by just watching the movies, you can't really determen which one is faster)
I wished Phil would have put his effort in a warpless run, instead of trying to improve this by a few frames...
Wow. This turned out bad quick.
The people throwing one-liners at each other (you know who you are), could maybe be as kind as shutting up because it's not leading anywhere.
I'll say something more constructive later. Maybe.
And this wobbling nonsense - you people are just looking for a reason to keep Sleepz's name on the main page.
Obviously, everyone finds it not entertaining.
.
Well I don't think so. There's a lot of people that loves that.
FODA wrote:
Not that he had to, but it was unfortunate of Phil to just submit this without explanation text. I think it helped trigger this whole conversation.
I am starting to think that some guys are frustrated because for some reason, a guy like me, can beat a run by finding tricks that no one have thought before.
Baxter wrote:
I wished Phil would have put his effort in a warpless run, instead of trying to improve this by a few frames...
I have started this run before that warpless run was submitted. In fact, I am happy I didn't do it since it's longer and there's some chances that it would be displeased like this one.
The problem here is not the fact that I beat someone's time by 36 frames but because someone makes it 36 frames slower than it should be.
Honestly, I thought Phil's run was better played but made horrible choices stylistically. It may be faster, but it's lost the poetry-in-motion feel of the old video. Looking at both videos, it feels disengenuous, it feels like theft. Whether or not this is the actually case is moot. I'm not trying to prove theft, I'm not interested in proving theft, this is my opinion.
I felt guilty for submitting the Duck Tales run, and that bests it by 3 seconds, adds a glitch and a technique, and reduces senseless wobbling. This bests the old record by half a second, misses oppertunities to glitch out the game, adds no new techniques, and increases senseless wobbling. I felt guilty, and Phil came off really smug.
I know Phil can do absolutely stunning things when he puts his mind to it, (look at 5-1 in the warpless Mario 1 run). This seems rushed (even though it has 20,000 rerecords to its name (though Sleepz's had well over twice that)). And combined with the fact that aside from the mistake at 4-1 was the only really noticable mistake in old run, and barely noticable at that. I'm going to have to vote a resounding "no" on this run.
One frame here, one frame there isn't intended to cut it, if the entertainment is lost.
As for KaitouKid and hopper calling everybody who disagrees with them panzies. Yes, I'm a panzy, and you are one too. We're arguing over old video games for crying out loud.
"What mighty contests rise from trivial things"
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Why don't you, Sleepz, try to make an even faster run without the "wobbling"? Right now the 36 frames faster run is the best and most entertaining and should replace your run.
Does the improved 36 frames entertain you? Or the wobbling? What do you find in the movie that entertains you more than sleepz movie?
The wobbling.
I don't understand why you guys, Vatchern for example, call other people n00b and stuff just because they have another opinion thatn somebody else.
Why do you call the movies "time-attacks" and not "fun-attacks", if you think more about the entertainment than the time? Both the time-attacks are good, but the last one is better.
Well I finally got around to watching the movies side-by-side. First of all, Phil's is faster (obviously), but I have to say that, speed aside, some parts were more entertaining in Sleepz's (end of 4-1), and some were more entertaining in Phil's (end of 7-1). This is my opinion. Overall, both were equally entertaining, just in different specifics.
And I don't mind the wobbling. I mind more slower playing.
Thus, in accordance with the guidelines, which is what we should be voting by, I am voting yes for this movie.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Publish Phils video but keep Sleepz video. Everybody should then be happy and bla bla bla. I think thats the best solution.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Publish Phils video but keep Sleepz video. Everybody should then be happy and bla bla bla. I think thats the best solution.
Supreme Court style, just sidestep this whole debate. I personally would say to let the votes decide it, just like any other submission here.
Truncated wrote:
The people throwing one-liners at each other (you know who you are), could maybe be as kind as shutting up because it's not leading anywhere.
I'm not sure if I apply to this...sorry if anything I said offended you, but I'm not sorry for posting it. I felt very insulted, and I will stand behind everything I say on these forums.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 8/31/2004
Posts: 298
Location: Falun, Sweden
Okey... I think Sleepz movies should be kept, the reasons for that has already been mentioned earlier.
And some of you, can you please mind what you say? Im tierd...
Bein' away for like five years, and not a single new post in the ZSNES forum... :'-(
Joined: 6/28/2004
Posts: 219
Location: Raccoon City
supermegavkoy wrote:
Why do you call the movies "time-attacks" and not "fun-attacks", if you think more about the entertainment than the time? Both the time-attacks are good, but the last one is better.
Not to be a pain in the ass, but I don't think anyone calls them time-attacks anymore. I'm pretty sure theyve been re-dubbed "TAS's" (tool assisted speedrun) to make the "ZOMG THATS SO FAKE OMG" crowd shut their mouths.
Ok tool assisted speedrun, not tool assisted funruns. Whatever you prefer. ;D
I think it wrong to keep Sleepz' if we vote "yes" here, and it's wrong to have both if we vote "no" here, because why should we make some exception this time just tp please the minority?
I personally would say to let the votes decide it, just like any other submission here.
the voting system was designed to assist the judges in making a decision. It came into existance shortly after the site gained its peek in populariy because the many submissions created a very large work load for the judges. It is equally useful as a lazy tool for fastfood decision making. People abusing the voting system just made it harder to be lazy, so we banned the lurkers.
Out of principle, the votes alone will never decide whether a run will get published. I'd quote bisqwit here, but it'll take me forever to find where he stated this, and that too gets in the way of me being lazy.
For the record, I don't consider the wobbling an unforgivable sin. I wouldn't want to see it constantly, but it wasn't overly distracting. All I ever noticed was that someone found a way to improve a nearly flawless run by 36 frames, and my hat is off to him. If it hurts someone's ego to lose their record by a mere 36 frames, that's unfortunate, but I'm sure he'll set another record in the near future. Every movie will be beaten eventually. I'm just impressed that SMB2 can still be improved.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
For the record, I don't consider the wobbling an unforgivable sin. I wouldn't want to see it constantly, but it wasn't overly distracting. All I ever noticed was that someone found a way to improve a nearly flawless run by 36 frames, and my hat is off to him. If it hurts someone's ego to lose their record by a mere 36 frames, that's unfortunate, but I'm sure he'll set another record in the near future. Every movie will be beaten eventually. I'm just impressed that SMB2 can still be improved.
Maybe you haven’t been reading my posts hopper, but I’ve stated over and over again that my problem with the submission is that it is an exact copy of mine and adds nothing new. You’re the one who’s making a big deal about the frames. Like you just said, “All I ever noticed was that someone found a way to improve a nearly flawless run by 36 frames.” And in your previous post, you keep going on and on about frames and split seconds. I just brought up the 36 frames just to emphasize the “adds nothing new” fact. With the wobbling, you said you didn’t want to see it constantly, yet 36 frames is enough to make you favor a video full of wobbling. And even if you really thought it wasn’t overly distracting, there are even more people that do:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=86&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60
And having my run beating doesn’t bother me. My LoZ, MM3 and previous SMB2 run were all beaten, and I didn’t mind at all. Like I said, I was very pleased about the SMB2 that replaced mine. It just bothers me when someone takes someone else’s run, makes a carbon copy of it, and tries to replace that run without contributing or adding something new. If you're going to replace one of my runs, at least try to make something worthy of being called an improvement.
When I first started making TASs, I thought that wobbling would prevent people from being bored, but now I think it's kind of lame.
I liked, how in Sleepz's run, that as he was waiting for Birdo to give another egg, he stands on the edge of him and moves with birdo. I thought that was a good example of keeping a fun mood.
I don't think people mind if you have to wait a few seconds to do something.
