Completed:
2010-Current | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Individual Level TASes
2014 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 1:05:03.23
2014 | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Hero Story (w/ THC98) in 25:11.87
2016 | Metroid Prime - Any% in 00:37 (In-Game Time)
2018 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:42.350
2020 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 0:39:20.10
2022 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:25.567
Currently working on:
SA2:B DARK STORY
Console loads vary by a matter of frames with metroid prime, this is over 2 seconds.
This is false.
Huh? itsPersonnal uploaded a video showing the 2 seconds delay between Dolphin and real console...
I thought he was referring to "Console loads vary by a matter of frames with metroid prime" rather than the 2 seconds part. Can anyone who know's please elaborate?
I don't know how much console loads differ between consoles actually. I to know on Wind Waker the difference between a white wii and a red wii amounted to a sizeable difference after just a few loads (less than a dozen) but because Metroid Prime is constantly streaming data, I assumed it would be much more.
Only have a white Wii and an old GameCube to test, and the load times vary even on the same console loading the same thing, so finding an exact amount would be annoyingly difficult. Dolphin's timings were based off of several games being played on a white wii, and I believed Metroid Prime to be one of those games (it was one that was tested after the changes, as I have mentioned.)
Red Wii has far faster disc loading times (in Wind Waker, as I mentioned) and I believe differences in GC models/age of laser can affect load times as well. No idea how close it is to any particular console; but of course the Prime series with streaming data would be one of the most difficult to time.
It gets even more complicated technically, we don't simulate the read speed based on where the data is on the disc without magic. (at least, I don't think we possibly could... someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
THC98 wrote:
AngerFist wrote:
itsPersonnal wrote:
Console loads vary by a matter of frames with metroid prime, this is over 2 seconds.
This is false.
Huh? itsPersonnal uploaded a video showing the 2 seconds delay between Dolphin and real console...
Him saying "it's only a matter of frames between consoles" is false.
Enough of this bullshit, if you want to talk more about off-topic loading times then do so in the Dolphin section.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
It gets even more complicated technically, we don't simulate the read speed based on where the data is on the disc without magic. (at least, I don't think we possibly could... someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
I don't think it would be that significantly difficult. Gamecube discs are CAV discs, which means a seek time should be rather easy to simulate, because storage doesn't increase in a sorta kinda but not really quadratic manner, depending on zone domains, like CLV, but instead is the same everywhere.
Here's a possibility in pseudocode. I'm not sure how applicable it would be to the dolphin code base, because this is super simplified and I'm sure the level of abstraction in the code base is far higher, moreover this would need to occur in a thread, because otherwise the sleep would screw shit up. And depending on threading the driver might need to handle read queueing as well.
size_t previous_offset; // probably encapsulated in a disk reading class
char readByte(size_t offset) {
microsleep(simulatedSeektime(previous_offset, offset));
previous_offset = offset;
return realReadByte(offset);
}
size_t simulatedSeektime(size_t start, size_t dest) {
auto startTrack = start / TRACK_SIZE;
auto destTrack = dest / TRACK_SIZE;
auto delta = startTrack < destTrack : destTrack - startTrack : startTrack - destTrack;
return delta * SEEKTIME_PER_TRACK_IN_USEC;
}
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
well, if the disc read speeds can be made more accurate and can look at the code and get better results, I definitely think they should. The problem is that changing it for one game affects it for every game, so if any single little variable is wrong, it won't seem right for all titles.
well, if the disc read speeds can be made more accurate and can look at the code and get better results, I definitely think they should. The problem is that changing it for one game affects it for every game, so if any single little variable is wrong, it won't seem right for all titles.
That doesn't mean it's impossible, that just means you need to do lots of testing and data-gathering. Maybe with enough samples you could 'automatically solve for the variables'.
Well, I think the general discussion of loading times is very relevant to Metroid Prime. It affects the game and how it plays.
Dolphin added support for more accurate loading times more or less because it is known to affect the playability (and thus glitches) of certain games. One of the things hoped to be accomplished by the feature was that Metroid Prime's speedrun route would be possible on emulator (at least, from me, that was something I wanted to make sure worked) but, I don't think frame perfect load times are plausible.
If Metroid Prime's load times are that far off still (I did some remedial testing on my white Wii, with Revision 0 Metroid Prime, and it was very, very close playing through the frigate) then we can't really put the issue completely to rest.
Yes, Dolphin more accurately emulates disc load times, but that doesn't mean it emulates them perfectly. And I think if the emulation quality is below the standards of some TASers, then they shouldn't be bullied over their decision to not want to work with it.
And, like any open source project, the code is available to view. If anyone spots a potential problem, or thinks they can implement it more accurately, they can try their hand at it. Slowing down the loads just for Metroid Prime isn't a solution (for master, if you want to do a special version for a TAS, I think that's understandable) because other games seem to line up very, very well to console (Luigi's Mansion, Wind Waker were among tested games) and sometimes were slightly slower even.
I hope this more or less explains the discussion going on here. I'll be doing more hardware testing as I go to try and verify if there are any (easy to spot, I'm not a capable coder) problems in the current disc read speed setup.
It seems that itsPersonnal's console just loads a lot slower than those of other people. There's no solution to this problem, unless you want to write different code for each and every version of the Wii and GCN. Which I don't think will happen, so I suggest people just come to terms with the current load times being "just" close.
Console loads vary by a matter of frames with metroid prime, this is over 2 seconds.
This is false.
he means console loads varying with each other by frames (not console vs tas), unless you have some broken wii or something.
AngerFist wrote:
itsPersonnal wrote:
At any rate, this revision with "fixed loads" is still far too inaccurate for me to waste my time messing around with.
Well thank god you aren't because that attitude ain't also 100% properly fixed. There are plenty of others including myself who will one day tas this game. It's only a matter of finding proper time and determination.
well given your attitude at one of the people who know the most about this game (and certainly way more than you) and is experienced with TASing on dolphin ... good luck!
EDIT: And one thing to mention. Accusing one of few people who HAS done a few minor TASs of this game (and other games on dolphin) of spewing bullshit, saying he's completely wrong (when you're the wrong who's wrong), and saying that he should stay away from this game is one of the biggest reason that people don't want to work on a metroid prime TAS, because of the attitude of people like you. No wonder people don't want to work on TAS's of this game, given the constant bitching, demands, and when someone DOES want to try something, who has more knowledge of the game, he's shoved away when he brings up a legit concern. Given the general attitude of this thread, even if I were completely capable of TASing, and even if dolphin was perfect, and disregarding how ridiculous it is to optimize this game, I wouldn't get anywhere near it because of these kinds of attitudes.
I find it pretty silly not being able to accept emulation that is not perfect. No emulation will ever be perfect, but that has not stopped the community from producing TASes. Load time emulation will never be perfect, and by that attitude, there will never be a TAS made because of that.
Just my take on the whole, anyway...
I think the complaint is legitimate though; the load times affect the game, but emulating disc media load speeds isn't exactly easy. Disc speeds are "fairly accurate" in Dolphin right now for most games, but if it's not up to someone's standards for a TAS, so be it. It only means there is room for improvement in the future.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2823
Location: Northern California
Runs have been obsoleted and rejected over inaccurate emulation, so I think it's a pretty big deal. Plus, if it's breaking known glitches then the TAS will have a distinct disadvantage compared to an RTA, and given how atrocious people can be when it comes to commenting on speedruns there's really no reason to just go ahead and make a TAS regardless.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Alright fuck it, let the off topicness commence then.
kirbymastah wrote:
AngerFist wrote:
itsPersonnal wrote:
Console loads vary by a matter of frames with metroid prime, this is over 2 seconds.
This is false.
he means console loads varying with each other by frames (not console vs tas), unless you have some broken wii or something.
What he meant, didn't meant is his fault for not being clear. And slap me silly but what you wrote compared with that he wrote is like comparing day and night. You his advocate? He cannot speak for himself? Was I too harsh on him? Did I hurt his feelings?
kirbymastah wrote:
AngerFist wrote:
itsPersonnal wrote:
At any rate, this revision with "fixed loads" is still far too inaccurate for me to waste my time messing around with.
Well thank god you aren't because that attitude ain't also 100% properly fixed. There are plenty of others including myself who will one day tas this game. It's only a matter of finding proper time and determination.
well given your attitude at one of the people who know the most about this game (and certainly way more than you) and is experienced with TASing on dolphin ... good luck!
lol.. You severely underestimate me :D You have no idea who I am, what I've tased and what I am capable of but let's not go there :D
kirbymastah wrote:
EDIT: And one thing to mention. Accusing one of few people who HAS done a few minor TASs of this game (and other games on dolphin) of spewing bullshit, saying he's completely wrong (when you're the wrong who's wrong), and saying that he should stay away from this game is one of the biggest reason that people don't want to work on a metroid prime TAS, because of the attitude of people like you. No wonder people don't want to work on TAS's of this game, given the constant bitching, demands, and when someone DOES want to try something, who has more knowledge of the game, he's shoved away when he brings up a legit concern. Given the general attitude of this thread, even if I were completely capable of TASing, and even if dolphin was perfect, and disregarding how ridiculous it is to optimize this game, I wouldn't get anywhere near it because of these kinds of attitudes.
I am sorry but I don't give a if he isn't willing to tas it. This is Metroid Prime, it's destined to be tased by someone. I am not the slightest worried. Get off his wang and look around. Can you name any emulator that loads perfectly loading times?
Even when the not so recent Mupen64plus came out, I remember someone demonstrated in a video how after like 5-10 minutes the growing difference between Mupen64plus and console was apparent. The game was Ocarina of Time. The difference with fadeouts became longer and longer. STOP THE PRESS! Did tasers of Ocarina of Time stopped tasing it because of that? Did they say oh forget about it, they'll never properly fix the loading times and they cannot be bothered by it?
They knew the minor (I chose minor for lack of better word) flaws the emulator had and sucked it up and dealt with it. Saying "I cannot waste my time" and such is quite annoying and a bit elitist. Put up or shut up, regardless of who you are and/or what you are known for.
kirbymastah wrote:
(when you're the wrong who's wrong)
lol nice wording.
Samsara wrote:
Runs have been obsoleted and rejected over inaccurate emulation,
Yeah. This is no exception. Runner A submits a run of this game with current flaws of dolphin. It gets accepted knowing the minor flaws the emulator has. We put a note there. Next runner who decides to improve it with a more accurate dolphin but perhaps with a longer run will obsolete the former run. This is not new, it has happened before.
JMC47 wrote:
I think the complaint is legitimate though.
I agree but the complaining should be to a certain extent.
Now ya have to excuse me, it's Friday and I got a bit drinking to do :)
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Cheers ANGERfist! I say as long as glitches that happen in console can occur in the emulator, let it be and we can have another controversial war when it comes time.
With all this, I am also angry.
I come by hoping there's some sort of progress to Metroid Prime.
...
At this point, the relevancy of loading times does not matter to me. I don't care if it is absolutely pivotal to the creation of a Metroid Prime run, and that all attempts at a TAS will be futile if it isn't fixed.
What I do care about is that the general fury I'm feeling from the topic. I feel that, even if emulation is "perfected" right the snap now, what I'm reading implies to me the schedule for TASing Metroid Prime is pushed back a few years, as it appears likely a GameCube TASer or two will leave the site due to this one event, or at the least have bad feelings whenever the thought of TASing this game comes to mind, discouraging attempts even if they choose to stay.
Well, that is as I see it.
...
Can someone please split these recent posts off somewhere else? I don't want to come across them again when I browse through old posts sometime in the future.
You his advocate? He cannot speak for himself? Was I too harsh on him? Did I hurt his feelings?
No, I just couldn't be bothered to waste my time explaining myself again. Look back at my posts in this thread, and really try to drill those into your head because you clearly keep forgetting what the problem even is here.
Can I just say, that if someone who isn't me decides to make a TAS of this game, regardless of who it is, I will not interfere. I'd love to see a TAS of this game, even a poorly made one. A year or two ago, MrSpeedrun started an any% TAS and I was his number one fan, giving his advice and insight into all the tricks that I understood.
Then why don't you make the TAS? angerfist screams.
Well it's pretty simple. I, me personally, have standards, very high ones at that. I'm not trying to brag or arrogant here, but there's a reason my SA2B TASes have gone on undefeated for the past 2 years, despite other people trying to improve on them. When I make a project, I make it to last. I want it to be solid and optimized to the point where even tying it is a chore. I will not make a TAS of Metroid Prime if loads are no where near accurate. I'm not devoting years of my time routing and optimizing an hour long run so that it can go on unappreciated and forgotten once loads are better. You, and no one else in this community can convince ME PERSONALLY otherwise.
Now I serenely apologize to everyone here for bring up this toxic subject again. I was under the impression that loads where accurate, which sparked my interest in route testing for 100% non-TAS runs. Since I would rather play the game with save states to time a segment, than splice together a segment by recording from a console.
Don't respond to this post with more fighting, please. I'm done talking about loads, and clearly, so are a lot of people.
Completed:
2010-Current | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Individual Level TASes
2014 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 1:05:03.23
2014 | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Hero Story (w/ THC98) in 25:11.87
2016 | Metroid Prime - Any% in 00:37 (In-Game Time)
2018 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:42.350
2020 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 0:39:20.10
2022 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:25.567
Currently working on:
SA2:B DARK STORY
I agree with you itsPersonnal as well. It sparked everyone about the load times because everyone wants this TAS to get made, you are definitely the best candidate for this game (I've seen all your YouTube videos). But that being said, everyone has to have some standards which is completely acceptable.
When the time comes, I have already talked with AngerFist about myself TASing Metroid Prime after I have finished Prince of Persia: Sands of Time. If and when that time comes around, I would love for you to help look over my work as well. I fully understand I am not even a good candidate for this game, but I always love a challenge!
I love how angerfist turned it into an essay about why I think a TAS shouldn't be made, when I didn't even say that I think a TAS shouldn't be created in my recent post (at least on this page). I was refering to your general rude and demanding attitude at itspersonnal and other people (which you should go back and take a look at) which makes TASing this game very unattractive. Basically every response you put up is completely uncalled for. When I tried to make it clear what itspersonnal said in one message, you turned it into an attack at me and him and treating us like little babies. I'm done with it anyways, if you want to keep up your attitude, by all means do so but you aren't exactly doing anyone any favors.
Let me reiterate I wasn't saying that TAS's of this game shouldn't be made. I was calling you out on your demanding and insulting attitude.
Anyways, I'm done with that.
At any rate, I don't really mind if someone starts a TAS right now as long as they recognize the inaccuracies and such; it certainly isn't as bad as it was a while ago.
My take on the issue is that loading times should never be faster than console. Make loading slightly slower if necessary. TAS has the ability to shoot the doors in Prime on the 1st possible frame to begin loading sequences, so with some precision aiming, Samus can immediately walk thru some doors because the loading would have finished. I know this won't happen for all the doors in the game, but it's something.
I was watching a twitch stream of Almolicious who does Thousand Year Door runs, and he demonstrated that loading zones in that game can vary by 1.5 seconds in some areas, or even just entering battles can take an extra .5 seconds. And that is on his own Wii system. I say we just produce a Dolphin build with slightly slower than average loading, and let TAS make up the lost time with superior aiming and movement. At least this way any gameplay a TAS makes is based purely on frame perfection and not "oh, Dolphin just loads faster."
My take on the issue is that loading times should never be faster than console. Make loading slightly slower if necessary. TAS has the ability to shoot the doors in Prime on the 1st possible frame to begin loading sequences, so with some precision aiming, Samus can immediately walk thru some doors because the loading would have finished. I know this won't happen for all the doors in the game, but it's something.
In my opinion, if you're going to do something like that just for the sake of finding the "theoretical console time", you're better off just doing the TAS on the current dolphin, count the number of frames gained at each door from emulator, then in the comments, say what the time would be with "near-perfect loading times". You'd be able to do so since a TASer should know where all the load triggers are, and can easily verify how long each one takes on console.
if he isn't willing to tas it. This is Metroid Prime, it's destined to be tased by someone. I am not the slightest worried. Get off his wang and look around. Can you name any emulator that loads perfectly loading times?
Even when the not so recent Mupen64plus came out, I remember someone demonstrated in a video how after like 5-10 minutes the growing difference between Mupen64plus and console was apparent. The game was Ocarina of Time. The difference with fadeouts became longer and longer. STOP THE PRESS! Did tasers of Ocarina of Time stopped tasing it because of that? Did they say oh forget about it, they'll never properly fix the loading times and they cannot be bothered by it? 
They knew the minor (I chose minor for lack of better word) flaws the emulator had and sucked it up and dealt with it. Saying "I cannot waste my time" and such is quite annoying and a bit elitist. Put up or shut up, regardless of who you are and/or what you are known for.
