Improve speed at intro/selections: just press buttons at correct frame or press all needed buttons in same time
Control enemy actions: The core I found, enemy actions depend timer it received damage, easy make non stop attacks to Boss. That's why sometimes will see my attacks have slow a bit. It's just "slower for faster"
Kill boss in a hit: All bosses will die if falling down water
Make boss thought wall: it's a my funny idea . Because Hâthor said can't hit boss when it blocked wall then I try do it
Difference between JP and US
Like Hâthor said, many thing have difference. JPN version have less than stages. Some tricks/bugs can work in JPN version but not work in US version, and else. Example quick stand up after hook, speed item, thought house roof, the fast way for done stage Cure the princess,etc. I must find other ways can do fast as possible
Thanks
Hâthor: show me his run, learned alot thing from him
feos: Accepting as a separate run. However it won't have a branch, at least for now. Because the completion type is the same, between the 2 games, only the region differs. Therefore, the region will be an indicator. I'm not using the Japanese title for this one, because we have a tradition of using the region mark alongside the English title instead. Also publishing...
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6435
Location: The land down under.
Since this is the Japanese version 1.0 I'm going to quote something from the other TAS. Just to expand on N?K's point.
TASVideoAgent wrote:
Difference between JP and US
In fact, there are 3 japanese versions of this game.
In the first japanese version, there are only 8 levels and only one layout for each. Missing levels are 4 and 5 in the US version. Option, character select, item select and level select screens are also different. Bosses have different weapons. Mashing button are less permissive in the JP version. Other interesting difference is that, in the level 1, you have to defeat Katanal and Echigoya in the same place. So you don't have to quit the first area and you save a lot of time. Finally, 180° reverse roll is absent in the first JP version.
In order to respond at this lack of levels in japanese version, an second edition was published and called Tenchu: Shinobi Gensai. This version almost matches with US and PAL versions with a level editor directly offered by the game (you're not obligated to unlock it with a cheat code). There is also a supplementary short cutscene just after the end of the level 5 (Katoaka's Senpuku). Funny thing about the PAL version is that gives you kunai instead of shuriken and the 50 Hz makes the sequence breaking of the level 9 more difficult.
The first JP version seems to be less challenging and interresting to TAS, but may be Shinobi Gensai version will offer a good challenge because of the layouts are very well thinking (particular shorcuts are impossible). Furthermore, Sephyr0sS and Riskbreaker Y have chosen the US version for one reason : it seems to be the fastest version given the layouts. I really wanted to help them. That's why I choose the US version.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
in the cure the princess(?) level, at the beginning you seem to run in the wrong direction and then you turn left to correct yourself… wasn’t that bad? and at the end, after the final hook shoot, can you trigger the cutscene with a sidejump? (right arrow + jump button) it should be faster than turning and running forward if possible
in the last level you took 2 bombs that you didn’t use, would it be faster to not take them or to use them in the level before?
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
I haven't watched this yet... I will be getting to it, and I'm looking forward to it (even though I can't make fun of Japanese voice acting as much). However, I am concerned that this run isn't a fair comparison with the previous one if the Japanese version has shorter / missing stages.
N?K, do you have any measurements for how much you improved Hathor's run in comparable areas? How much of an improvement would this be if you had the same stages?
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
in the cure the princess(?) level, at the beginning you seem to run in the wrong direction and then you turn left to correct yourself… wasn’t that bad?
No, it's just camera auto turn. You can watch my inputs in movie file at 32834
ALAKTORN wrote:
and at the end, after the final hook shoot, can you trigger the cutscene with a sidejump? (right arrow + jump button) it should be faster than turning and running forward if possible
Good idea, I didn't think this. But I think jump forward to wall then jump back is faster, didn't test
ALAKTORN wrote:
in the last level you took 2 bombs that you didn’t use, would it be faster to not take them or to use them in the level before?
The final boss I was remake 4th times, at the final time I was saved 2 bombs. Wasted 4 frames for take them, is it big :D
mklip2001 wrote:
N?K, do you have any measurements for how much you improved Hathor's run in comparable areas? How much of an improvement would this be if you had the same stages?
Yes, can't compare. Something have in US version but don't have in JPN version, speed item is one. Pass sub-boss in stage 1 in JPN version don't have in US version
Edit: ok I'll make a compare frames with same stage on both version in tonight. Now I'm working, can't play game
how is your Reclaim the Castle so fast? you didn’t use Hathor’s skip O_o (I assume it’s impossible in Jap v.1.0)
anyway, if this were to be published, I don’t think it should obsolete Hathor’s run, but be published as a separate “Japanese 1.0” run or whatever, as far as optimization goes I can already tell you that despite what the frames say N?K’s run is better optimized, it’s just the version differences that play into it
xxNKxx wrote:
ALAKTORN wrote:
and at the end, after the final hook shoot, can you trigger the cutscene with a sidejump? (right arrow + jump button) it should be faster than turning and running forward if possible
Good idea, I didn't think this. But I think jump forward to wall then jump back is faster, didn't test
you should test it, then; maybe you can hex-edit the following stages
xxNKxx wrote:
ALAKTORN wrote:
in the last level you took 2 bombs that you didn’t use, would it be faster to not take them or to use them in the level before?
The final boss I was remake 4th times, at the final time I was saved 2 bombs. Wasted 4 frames for take them, is it big :D
that should be easy to hex-edit by removing the 4 frames in which you take the 2 bombs, have you tried?
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6435
Location: The land down under.
Patashu wrote:
A TAS is deliberately played on a version that has less levels to make the game end faster?
I can think of another game that has been TASed which had less levels.
Gex: Enter the Gecko (Gex64)
The Nintendo 64 version has less levels to the Playstation and PC version...
Wikipedia:
The Nintendo 64 version of Gex: Enter the Gecko was entitled Gex 64: Enter the Gecko. This version features a new level, which replaced the secret levels. It is titled "Gecques Cousteau", a play on the French diver Jacques Cousteau, and is centered on the RMS Titanic, and played almost entirely underwater.
Other changes include fewer bonus levels and fewer quotes, due to the Nintendo 64 cartridges storing significantly less data for games than CDs. Some of the sound effects were altered slightly. The only normal level that was removed was Scream TV's "Poltergex".
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Plz remember i just calculator in stage time, for totally i still faster because my improve skip intro/selections (look at start frames on both will know).
About his shorcut ways, I tried all, but it didn't work by JPN version
His run just faster by speed item, i just faster by kill bosses (yep lucky control are special things)
I think don't compare both versions, they didn't same (and i want make US version with improve bosses attack time) :D
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6435
Location: The land down under.
Going off two address which act exactly the same in both regions I managed to get you guys frame times.
These work more of a total time thing where it's setup and doing the level.
**They both reset after a loading screen.
_N?K_ | Hâthor | Difference
05307 | 08153 | -2846
04548 | 03974 | +574
08049 | 07187 | +862
00000 | 11007 | 0000000000 | 11832 | 00000
07958 | 07472 | +486
04032 | 04303 | -271
04740 | 03633 | +1107
06353 | 05805 | +548
16632 | 16112 | +520
___________________
57865 | 56805 | +980
Final Inputs: 59885 | 107560* (82069)
*The extra input was showing stats.
** Japan's values freeze and NTSC actually drop the number and waits for a restart.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6435
Location: The land down under.
xxNKxx wrote:
Huh? More than 1000 frames? It's terrible :(
I should mention why one line is marked in green.
Simply put. I don't trust those values.
Since they both trigger a clip they both reset but they both reset differently.
NTSC completely cuts out the time while Japan continues to increase the time until it freezes the number.
Technically it's not 1000 behind but 460 behind when ignoring the green values.
I will switch out the green values when I get an accurate number.
All the other values are correct but not the final fight (marked in green).
Edit: Apparently I cannot Math.
Edit2: Still cannot Math.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Alright, I've seen this run. It isn't quite as entertaining for me when I don't understand the dialogue, but the movement seems accurate and the fights are good. ALAKTORN's post was really helpful for understanding more about the version differences.
I'll say this gets a Yes vote but should be a separate publication.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Yes, should be like that ^^
Btw, I was tried edit movie for reduce select bombs like ALAKTORN said, but the run after that isn't same original. Then if I want do, I must remake the run, sound like hell :(
A TAS is deliberately played on a version that has less levels to make the game end faster?
I can think of another game that has been TASed which had less levels.
Gex: Enter the Gecko (Gex64)
The Nintendo 64 version has less levels to the Playstation and PC version...
Wikipedia:
The Nintendo 64 version of Gex: Enter the Gecko was entitled Gex 64: Enter the Gecko. This version features a new level, which replaced the secret levels. It is titled "Gecques Cousteau", a play on the French diver Jacques Cousteau, and is centered on the RMS Titanic, and played almost entirely underwater.
Other changes include fewer bonus levels and fewer quotes, due to the Nintendo 64 cartridges storing significantly less data for games than CDs. Some of the sound effects were altered slightly. The only normal level that was removed was Scream TV's "Poltergex".
But they are of different consoles. This is both for the same console (PSX) but different regions. I think the (U) version should be used in this case.
Ok, as the Gex guy, I have to clarify some things here:
Gex: Enter the Gecko is not a good example of a game, where you deliberately TAS a version with less levels. The amount of regular levels (bonus levels are irrelevant for any%) is exactly the same, it's just that the two versions each have one exclusive level. The reason the N64-version is used for speedruns and TASes (besides the option to disable the time-wasting quotes), is that the exclusive level lets you have more remotes earlier on, which allows you to skip a boss.
For 100%, I would prefer the Playstation version, because it has more content overall. This is my opinion for all games btw, don't try to save time with a version that has less content.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
i think that both version have enough differences to grant a separate category
until a run of the J Shinobi Gensai version merge them again.
i think of skyblazer as a precedent where the beta rom was obseleted by the full version run. (if i remember corretly )
Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 1182
Location: Teresópolis - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Yes, you're right. Also every stage of the final version is slower, I just managed to beat the beta version because of a cut scene at the very end...
But both versions have the same number of stages, so I don't know if it's really a precedent.
In any case, I also like to see it published, and like others have said, not obsoleting the USA version.
I am old enough to know better, but not enough to do it.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11469
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I'm seeing you're also working on a USA version, N?K, right? Would you want a movie replacement? What are you plans overall?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I'm just testing on USA version, many things not same, need find ways more than for improve everything
I don't have any plan. Just do when I feel interest and change to other games when feel bored, still have left few runs not done :D
Replacement? Are you mean if I want improve more than this run then do it ?. Oh yes, I'll save 4 waste frames. Wait me few days, I'll remake stages :D
I'm seeing you're also working on a USA version, N?K, right? Would you want a movie replacement? What are you plans overall?
he doesn’t want to replace this run with USA, JPN and USA can be considered different games for how widely different they are
he’s just improving on Hathor’s run now using the same version for a new submission
