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Posted: 7/18/2005 9:28 PM
Post subject: Shadowgate
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
I'm planning on doing a TAS of Shadowgate, and I was just wondering if anyone knows of something that could be done faster than in the current movie. Even if you know a trick that saves only 0,1s, please share it. Currently I'm planning on using the same route as Walker Boh, unless someone knows of a better one. Mostly I plan to shave of time by optimizing cursor movement, but as I said, if you know of a better route, or maybe an item that you can skip please let me know. If anyone's interested I could post my progress here.
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Posted: 7/19/2005 12:43 PM
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Highness
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Well.. This game is even quick to defeat on console. I remember having times of sub 30min or so when I was a kid. Haven't played it for about a year now so I don't remember everything in detail. But what you should try to do is manipulate the sphinx that riddles you so that you don't have to backtrack that far. Secondly I think you only need like 3 torches throughout the game + the torch you throw at the wraith to get the cape. Third.. Would be kewl to see the swedish translated version. It's an official version so it should be ok. :D That version is mostly fun because they mixed up the characters Å and Ä. Så it say Gä instead of Gå and Slä instead of Slå. Gå means move/walk, and Slå means hit. The swedish translation woulden't involve any optimizations though, unless there's lesser text that needs to scroll past? I don't know this but it could be like that. I know that people have used japanese translations/originals because they use a certein ammount of pixels which should be faster than mixed. Or atleast thats what I have understoood by it. Leaving bags and drawers open.. Not sure if thats good, because they will end up in your inventory card list and just be empty.
Posted: 7/19/2005 1:40 PM
(Edited: 7/19/2005 2:17 PM)
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Have you seen the current movie, Highness? If not, check this link: http://tasvideos.org/movies.cgi?id=163 I strongly suggest to anyone who wants do make a comment in this thread to watch Walker's movie first (if you haven't done so) so you know what kind of tricks that Walker uses in his movie, so you don't mention a trick that Walker has already used. Another reason for watching this movie is because it's really good :) If you want to see what i've done so far, here's the WIP1 Rom name: Shadowgate (U).nes Emulator used: FCEU Ultra 0.98.12-blip Currently, this movie is about 3,4s faster than the current movie. (Walker's movie: ~1m 55,0s, this movie: ~1m 51,6s ). My goal is to improve the current movie with at least 15s, maybe even 20s. We'll see how this goes. Do you think that the question that the spinx asks in Walker's movie is the best? Maybe there's a question the sphinx can ask that makes the movie even faster. And I believe that the 3 torches that Walker picks up are the best to choose, since they're not too much in the way to pick up. I also intend to leave bags and drawers open in the same places as in Walker's movie, but if anyone finds out that it's faster to leave them open in somewhere, please let me know. About playing the Swedish translation... personally, i agree with you Highness that it would be really fun to make a TAS of the swedish translation (especially since I'm from Sweden myself), however, I'm not sure that such a movie would be published on the site . And I think that more people would be interested in the english version than in the Swedish. But who knows? If I'm in the mood for it, maybe I'll make a TAS of the Swedish version when the english version movie is completed. And I agree that it's really funny that the commands are "GÄ" and "SLÄ" :) You'd think they would notice such thing when they're translating, bu nooo. Oh, and by the way - thanks for the comments Highness, it's always fun when other users show interest in your movies.[/url]
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Posted: 7/19/2005 2:02 PM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
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We have some movies in Japanese which most people don't understand squat of. From that perspective the Swedish version would have been OK, if it wasn't for the rule that you should use the same version as a previously published movie. See the rules page. It makes comparing with old versions a whole lot easier. I would give some tips on the movie itself if I had any.
Posted: 7/19/2005 2:03 PM
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Highness
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Randil wrote:
Have you seen the current movie, Highness? If not, check this link: http://tasvideos.org/movies.cgi?id=163
I watched WalkerBoh's movie when it first was submitted. I was lurking around some months before I signed up in the forums just in case you wonder about the dates etc.
Randil wrote:
If you want to see what i've done so far, here's the WIP1 Rom name: Shadowgate (U).nes Emulator used: FCEU Ultra 0.98.12-blip I strongly suggest that you watch this movie first so you know what kind of tricks that Walker uses in his movie, so that you don't comment on a trick that Walker has already used. Another reason for watching it is because it's a really good movie too :)
I will watch it when I got more time on my hands.
Randil wrote:
Do you think that the question that the spinx asks in Walker's movie is the best? Maybe there's a question the sphinx can ask that makes the movie even faster.
I beleive there is a question about a horse shoe which can be found by backtracking only one or two rooms. I don't know what's required in order to manipulate it though. It's the room before you find the flute or something. Where you can pull a handle in the floor to get the water!
Randil wrote:
And I believe that the 3 torches that Walker picks up are the best to choose, since they're not too much in the way to pick up.
I don't remember how Walker did it. But I have a feeling that only grabbing torches from walls being on the right would be fastest as the buttons such as "Take" etc is on the bottom right as well. Then the cursor won't have to travel as far. So it might be a better idea to grab them later on, depending on how it looks.
Randil wrote:
About playing the Swedish translation... personally, i agree with you Highness that it would be really fun to make a TAS of the swedish translation (especially since I'm from Sweden myself), however, I'm not sure that such a movie would be published on the site . And I think that more people would be interested in the english version than in the Swedish. But who knows? If I'm in the mood for it, maybe I'll make a TAS of the Swedish version when the english version movie is completed. And I agree that it's really funny that the commands are "GÄ" and "SLÄ" :) You'd think they would notice such thing when they're translating, bu nooo.
Well.. Why woulden't swedish official translations be welcomed when japanese and english are? Well.. English is a given thing since most of the world can understand it (I beleive). But I don't recon even half the people using this site knows japanese. And frankly no one will need to bother reading the text anyways since it will just zip by (Besides in the ending credits perhaps?)!
Randil wrote:
Oh, and by the way - thanks for the comments Highness, it's always fun when other users show interest in your movies.
No problem. I always like to help people, and I know for a fact that it's frustrating when people are to shy to answer etc.
Posted: 7/19/2005 2:07 PM
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Highness
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Truncated wrote:
We have some movies in Japanese which most people don't understand squat of. From that perspective the Swedish version would have been OK, if it wasn't for the rule that you should use the same version as a previously published movie. See the rules page. It makes comparing with old versions a whole lot easier. I would give some tips on the movie itself if I had any.
Well.. What if the Swedish version for a fact is faster then? For example the japanese version of Chrono Trigger was used when Bisqwit (I think) made a test run. And I think there were an english/american version as well in the process. I don't see a problem with other versions being used, as long as they are not hacked etc. Heck.. I don't even see a problem with fan translations either. But it's not up to me to decide the rules. Thank god for that since I'm not willing to hear people blame me for making up crappy rules. Not that I think that these rules are crappy. But it's some times worth it to put in some diffrent perspectives.
Posted: 7/19/2005 2:13 PM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
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Useless nostalgia flash about bad translations: I played an old Game Boy game in Swedish which was really horrible translationwise. I have forgotten the name, but anyway, you went around opening tits. You open tit! Obviously the translator didn't know the difference between chests and chests.
Posted: 7/19/2005 2:23 PM
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yarbles
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 143
Location: Colorado
Is it possible to luck manipulate the sphinx, such that you don't have to backtrack at all? When is the riddle determined? Could you play up to the sphinx, hear the riddle, and then go back to a previous savestate with the foreknowledge about what the answer to the riddle is, so you can pick it up on your way?
Posted: 7/19/2005 2:25 PM
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Highness
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
ROFLMAO!!!! Sounds hillarious. Among that tits is not only breasts it's also a bird spicies right? There is a site called http://www.nice-tits.org/ where you can look at the birds. Caution! Do not delete the dash unless you wanna see some completly diffrent! ;)
Posted: 7/19/2005 2:28 PM
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Highness
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
yarbles wrote:
Is it possible to luck manipulate the sphinx, such that you don't have to backtrack at all? When is the riddle determined? Could you play up to the sphinx, hear the riddle, and then go back to a previous savestate with the foreknowledge about what the answer to the riddle is, so you can pick it up on your way?
I think that if you pick an item up that is belonging to a riddle I think the riddle will be something else. Wonder what will happend if you grab every single thing in the game? =) That is only in my experience though. If I for example grabbed the horse shoe to early I would instead have to pick up the broom which is way long back! But perhaps with manipulation it would be possible to check with a save state?
Posted: 7/19/2005 2:29 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
I tell you what, after i finish this english version, perhaps I'll give a shot at the swedish translation, and check out if it is faster than the english version. But first I think I'm gonna have to redo part of my Deja Vu movie, Mr. Kelly R. Flewin commented on an "extra step" that I take in that movie... And I have no idea what that is, I asked him about it some time ago, and I'm still waiting for him to reply... If anyone who reads this knows what this "extra step" that I take in my newly submitted Deja Vu movie is, please tell me in this thread: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2627 Well, back to Shadowgate: If i am to submit a TAS of both the english and the swedish version of this game, would they both be published or do you think that only the fastest one will be published? And Highness, if you watched Walker's movie when it first was submitted, I don't blame you for not remembering, but Walker actually takes the riddle about the horseshoe, so if both you and Walker Boh finds that riddle to be the fastest one, i think I'll stick with it :) Thanks for the tip anyway. I think I'll go back to working on the movie now...
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Posted: 7/19/2005 2:32 PM
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Highness
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
I think that only the fastest movie should be published. There is no need to publish an extra Swedish movie. I mean.. Kids in the first grade learns english now days. But if the swedish version is faster, there is no doubt about that it's the version to publish. Hehe.. Funny that we both thought about the horse shoe then. :)
Posted: 7/19/2005 2:41 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
I'm still a little concerned about the riddle the sphinx will ask... Hopefully it can be chosen with some easy luck manipulation, but I'm worried that what decides lies way back in the game, and I don't want to redo to much of the movie when I'm at the spinx... I'll try to look into what decides the riddle, and if anyone who reads this finds out, please let me know...
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Posted: 7/19/2005 6:12 PM
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Highness
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
As I think I said before. If you pickup stuff earlier, like the broom etc etc... I think the sphinx won't ask riddles about that, unless you pickup all stuff possible that he can ask about. Therefor you should have save states and perhaps hex edit stuff to get the right riddle along with right stuff.
Posted: 7/19/2005 8:11 PM
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lfe
Joined: 10/16/2004
Posts: 19
Regarding Swedish and English versions: A swedish one would be cool and all, but for comparison and future improvements i personally think an English version would be most suiting.. but if this all comes down to speed i guess the version with less text would be preferable. Almost all RPGs are runned in the version with least characters (as in text characters :)
Posted: 7/19/2005 8:51 PM
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A_Runnelid
Joined: 4/23/2004
Posts: 150
One thing you can do to be transported to other rooms, is use the flute on the Sphinx. Back when we didn't know what to do, me and my friends tried everthing. (For good reason. Some solutions are ridiculously difficult to find. Torch on Torch comes to mind.) I don't know if it sends you to a set of different rooms, or if you can get to any arbitrary room with this method, I just thought I'd mention it., Also, I'm not sure you need to put a stone in the slingshot to use it properly, but I told WalkerBoh about this and he didn't use it, so maybe my memory is off. Andreas
Posted: 7/19/2005 9:14 PM
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SXL
Joined: 2/7/2005
Posts: 571
swedish translated game for a movie would only be fun for swedish people. adventure games such as shadowgate aren't just pure timeattacks subject, a lot of people enjoy them as a speedrun, that is, to follow the plot and see the game being beaten, and how. having the texts in another language as english kinda spoils this matter. you'd only see very quick menu scrolling between names most people could not understand. would be quickly boring. yes, I'm also speaking for japanese versions of adventure games. and the "you must play the game in english to appreciate the movie" argument just doesn't work. don't forget that most people that watch speedruns/timeattacks also want to spare the time to play them.
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
Posted: 7/19/2005 10:40 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Highness: About the sphinx riddle, I must have missed what you wrote about that the sphinx asks questions depending on the items you're carrying. Sorrry about that. And I don't think I'll be hex-editing anything, I have NO idea how to do that :) I did the "hex editing crackcourse" on this site, and didn't understand anything... and I'm not a really good coder either, so I think I'll leave that out! I followed Tilus TAS for Pokemon green, and I know that I found it a little annoying that it was in japanese :) so I agree that when making a movie the english versions of the game should come in first hand. Unless the interest in another language actually is higher. But since some people have shown interest in a swedish version TAS for this game, perhaps I'll try one. And if it doesn't get published, I could still post it in this thread just for fun, if anyone would be interested in that. Oh, and A Runnelid, I'll look into if your trick can save time, but I'm not sure it will... or perhaps I'm wrong, we'll see. Here's the WIP2 So far, the movie isn't going as good as I had planned... I was hoping to improve the current movie with at least 20s, but now it looks like it's gonna be around 15s... This isn't because I have been sloppy or anything, it's probably because Walker Boh did a really great job when making this movie! Getting the time that he got without using frame advance... that's impressivt. Let's just hope that luck turns and I find a big timesaver so that I can shave of some more time!
My own page on this site.
Posted: 7/19/2005 11:05 PM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
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As I wrote above *points* the rules state that you must use the same version as the already published version, if there is one. That means no Swedish verison published. And yeah, I agree that the hex-editing page is crap. Maybe I should go and do something about it...
Posted: 7/20/2005 8:40 AM
(Edited: 7/20/2005 10:44 AM)
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Hmm, I seem to miss what other users have written when writing replies :) Again, I apologize. Ok, then the english version it is. I should be done with the movie within 3 days i believe, if I keep up this tempo. I have an idea too. How about someone coding a program that can open emulator movie files (fcm, smv) and modify the input for each frame? So if you want to change the joypad input for just one frame, let's say a frame in the middle of the movie, you don't have to try and hex edit the moviefile. I think that would be a lot more convenient. But then again, I'm no coder, so maybe this isn't such i a good idea... I have an update about the sphinx riddle, if anyone's interested... Perhaps the question he asks is partly dependant on the items youIt seems that the riddle the sphinx asks is not depending on the items that you're carrying, it actually seems to depend on which frame you press the button to move! If you didn't know, the shinx asks the riddle when you try to move out from the room. First i tried to move out of the room on frame 17165, then the sphinx asked the question about the the broom. After that I tried to move out of the room on different frames, and I found out that i you move out on frame 18000, the sphinx will ask the question the horseshoe. If you click to move out on frame 17999, he will ask another question. So in order to get the question about the horseshoe, I have to wait for 35 frames, which is a little annoying... And even if i am to backtrack to get the broom, which was the answer to the first question, I'm not sure that the first question will still be about the broom... I think I'll use these 35 frames to move a little closer to the right on the dot on the map, so i don't have to move after the question has been asked.... In total this will cost me 27 frames, which isn't really that much... if anyone knows of a way to avoid having these 27 frames lost, let me know... I hope you understand what I'm talking about, if not, whatch the movie and you'll see what I mean.
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Posted: 7/20/2005 9:06 AM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Randil wrote:
How about someone coding a program that can open emulator movie files (fcm, smv) and modify the input for each frame?
Genisto has supposedly written one such tool. Unfortunately I don't see a link to it at his homepage.
Posted: 7/20/2005 10:21 AM
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Highness
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
A Runnelid wrote:
One thing you can do to be transported to other rooms, is use the flute on the Sphinx. Back when we didn't know what to do, me and my friends tried everthing. (For good reason. Some solutions are ridiculously difficult to find. Torch on Torch comes to mind.) I don't know if it sends you to a set of different rooms, or if you can get to any arbitrary room with this method, I just thought I'd mention it., Also, I'm not sure you need to put a stone in the slingshot to use it properly, but I told WalkerBoh about this and he didn't use it, so maybe my memory is off. Andreas
Wow! I didn't know about those tricks. So much fun when you discover a new thing you didn't know about. :)
Randil wrote:
So far, the movie isn't going as good as I had planned... I was hoping to improve the current movie with at least 20s, but now it looks like it's gonna be around 15s... This isn't because I have been sloppy or anything, it's probably because Walker Boh did a really great job when making this movie! Getting the time that he got without using frame advance... that's impressivt. Let's just hope that luck turns and I find a big timesaver so that I can shave of some more time!
Err.. What the heck are you talking about? 15 seconds is ALOT of improvement! Even though your goal was set higher this is amazing.
Truncated wrote:
And yeah, I agree that the hex-editing page is crap. Maybe I should go and do something about it...
Yeah. It would be a good idea to get that part of the site more detailed. :)
Randil wrote:
I have an idea too. How about someone coding a program that can open emulator movie files (fcm, smv) and modify the input for each frame? So if you want to change the joypad input for just one frame, let's say a frame in the middle of the movie, you don't have to try and hex edit the moviefile. I think that would be a lot more convenient. But then again, I'm no coder, so maybe this isn't such i a good idea...
Yeah. I look for this program my self. I've actually requested one in the Gens Q/A forum here.
Bisqwit wrote:
Genisto has supposedly written one such tool. Unfortunately I don't see a link to it at his homepage.
Wow! I didn't know there was a tool like this already for FCM/SMV files. Would it be hard to make it work for Gens GMV files as well?
Posted: 7/20/2005 1:25 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
It'd be really great if I got my hands on that tool that Genisto wrote! :) Oh, and about 15s not being much, I too think that a 15s improvment is a lot, it's just that I compare this movie with my Uninvited movie (since the games are so alike), which was 53s faster. But as you said, 15s is a lot too. Here's the new WIP So far, I'm around 10s ahead of Walker's version. This will probably be the last WIP before the final version, so if you have anything that you would like to comment on, now would be a good time to do so.
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Posted: 7/20/2005 7:19 PM
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yarbles
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 143
Location: Colorado
Randil wrote:
It seems that the riddle the sphinx asks is not depending on the items that you're carrying, it actually seems to depend on which frame you press the button to move! If you didn't know, the shinx asks the riddle when you try to move out from the room. First i tried to move out of the room on frame 17165, then the sphinx asked the question about the the broom. After that I tried to move out of the room on different frames, and I found out that i you move out on frame 18000, the sphinx will ask the question the horseshoe. If you click to move out on frame 17999, he will ask another question. So in order to get the question about the horseshoe, I have to wait for 35 frames, which is a little annoying... And even if i am to backtrack to get the broom, which was the answer to the first question, I'm not sure that the first question will still be about the broom... I think I'll use these 35 frames to move a little closer to the right on the dot on the map, so i don't have to move after the question has been asked.... In total this will cost me 27 frames, which isn't really that much... if anyone knows of a way to avoid having these 27 frames lost, let me know... I hope you understand what I'm talking about, if not, whatch the movie and you'll see what I mean.
I don't remember the items well enough, but it seems like the most time-efficient way to go about it would be to get the answer to the riddle that is least out of the way BEFORE you get to the sphinx, and then simply luck manipulate which question he/she/it will ask. So a 30-40 frame wait to get the question you need would still most likely outweigh the time it would take to backtrack to get an item.
Posted: 7/20/2005 8:28 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Yes, I agree with you yarbles... I thought for some time to redo part of the movie and get the broom, because that was the answer to the first question the Sphinx asked me. But after doing some short calculations, it would all end up being at most 10 frames faster, if it would be faster at all. I can't be sure that he asks the same questions at the same frames when I get to him that time! And I believe that the horseshoe is the "riddle-item" that is least out of the way, so I think I'll stick with that item, unless it turns out that there is another riddle item that is faster to use. So I think I'll leave things as they are right now. And after all, I use these 27 frames to move the cursor around a bit, so I don't waste these frames by standing still and get a 0,5 boring second in the movie. I mean, you can't stand still for half a second in TAS, now can you? :)
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