Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Well Warp, you certainly got my attention. You and Michael have basically succeeded to change peoples habit calling a tool assisted run for TAS rather than timeattack. As you can see for yourself that many people have begun to use the word TAS, so you are victorious ^_^
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
I find it questionable that people are trying to force new meanings to old words, causing potential confusion
What do you call your computer's mouse then (perhaps a hand-assisted wheel)? You know, since this new meaning of 'mouse' is wrong, undescriptive, and confusing to you and many others who cannot differentiate it from a living mouse by context.
It's simple, there's emulator timeattack and console timeattack.
Warp: What's the main goal of most published movies? Do it as fast as possible or as slow as console run?
Imo, we are aiming for fastest time, but there's some exception like Gradius which TAS isn't more good to describe it. So timeattack is a good word that describe what we are doing here.
DO IT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.
For most cases, we are always trying to beat the time. But a normal speedrun are always trying to do as quick as they can but impossible, in most cases, to be as fast as we can.
In short words,
console speedrun = try to play as best as possible.
emu speedrun = do it so the video is shortest as possible.
Timeattack is more suited for emu speedrun than console speedrun.
And TAS is not good. What kind of tool!? People may think that we are using Game Genie or other cheat tools.
I agree that TAS is not timeattack but I am not the guy that do TASes but timeattacks
In short words,
console speedrun = try to play as best as possible.
emu speedrun = do it so the video is shortest as possible.
I think you are running out of arguments and thus starting to invent braindead definitions.
How many of the speedruns eg. at the Speed Demos Archive do not try to make the video as short as possible?
Ok, there are a few where using certain game bugs are sometimes not allowed. A few. Mostly they just try to get the game completed as fast as possible, using every trick in the book. Just look at the QdQ demos.
"Timeattack" is a bad term for one simple reason: It does not describe in any way how the videos were done and thus can (and have been) confusing.
"Tool-assisted" at least gives some hint that there is more to it than just normal playing.
And besides, as I have already said dozens of times: TAS is an established term. It was used for *exactly* these types of speedruns way before this site even existed.
When you tell a speedrunner "this is a tool-assisted speedrun" he will know what it is.
Joined: 8/31/2004
Posts: 298
Location: Falun, Sweden
I haven't even tried to get involved in this thread yet but now I feel that it's my turn.
I think Warp is the one that, so far, is the one with the strongest arguments since it would feel a bit wrong to call them "Savestate and slowdown made superplaymovies" or SASMSPM. Therefor I think using a term and the explain what it meens is the best solution.
(Maybe I've repeted some older post but I don't have the energy to read every post in this thread)
Bein' away for like five years, and not a single new post in the ZSNES forum... :'-(
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
What we need is official video game movie specifications endorsed by both Bisqwit and Radix. Making a sort of standard with the aim for clarity would remove a lot of confusion and frustration.
The only problems:
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Omega wrote:
endorsed by both Bisqwit and Radix
That is an excellent idea. And also, I hope they will some day be in some other form of collaboration.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Btw, those who can't let go of the term "timeattack", how about using "tool-assisted timeattack" (at least when using the term for the first time in a text; the next usages in the same text could be just "timeattack")?
It would be a kind of compromise between the two rivaling terms, and certainly bothers me a lot less than "timeattack" alone.
Your reasons against using 'timeattack' seem to be the following:
1. The idea that a compound word does not mean the same thing as the two words that form it is "ridiculous and stupid." Therefore, e.g., a loud speaker is the same as a loudspeaker.
2. Terms in English cannot have more than one sense.
3. We should describe things. Therefore, e.g., 'visually impaired' is preferable to 'blind.'
4. We should use older, more established terms. Therefore, e.g., we should continue to use 'tidal wave' instead of 'tsunami.'
5. Loaded questions / assertions / rhetoric
It is not that I love 'timeattack' more, but that I love 'tool-assisted' less. Actually, I would enthusiastically stop using 'timeattack' in favor of 'dreamrun,' as long as references to 'tool-assisted speedrun' were also switched to 'dreamrun.' (Many definitions of 'dream,' such as 'a wild fancy or hope' and 'one that is exceptionally gratifying, excellent, or beautiful,' fit well with what we are doing.)
How about everyone just calls them TASs? People that like the term "tool-assisted speedrun" can think of it as standing for that, and other people can think of it as standing for "time-attack superplay". Then everyone will be happy.
Edit: Omg, this is amazing! I just noticed that there's a checkbox for minor edits now! This is my dream come true! Hm, I wonder if this should be a minor edit. Maybe not, I have to share my amazing discovery experience with everyone. :)
1. The idea that a compound word does not mean the same thing as the two words that form it is "ridiculous and stupid." Therefore, e.g., a loud speaker is the same as a loudspeaker.
Well, you seemingly can't grasp the idea of a compound word meaning exactly the same thing as the words written separately. Can you explain me what is the difference between "teapot" and "tea pot"? Or "bubblegum" and "bubble gum"? Or "wargame" and "war game"?
There are compound words which change meaning when written separately, and there are others which don't. Quite clearly "timeattack" is of the latter type.
*You* may define that "timeattack" means something different when written separately, but that's not what the vast majority of people understands.
2. Terms in English cannot have more than one sense.
Not when it's *you* who invents a completely new meaning for the word instead of being a widely known accepted alternative meaning.
You can start using the word "white" with the meaning of "black" and call people stupid when they don't understand what you are talking about, but that doesn't make it a valid definition.
3. We should describe things. Therefore, e.g., 'visually impaired' is preferable to 'blind.'
Irrelevant example because "blind" is pretty unambiguous.
Your usage of "timeattack" is like using "blind" for someone who can see.
Besides, there's another difference: People already know what "blind" means. You don't have to explain it to them. However, most people don't know what a "timeattack" is. Why is it so bad to use a more descriptive term? Or do you want to confuse people on purpose?
4. We should use older, more established terms. Therefore, e.g., we should continue to use 'tidal wave' instead of 'tsunami.'
Uh? I don't understand this one.
What's wrong with "tidal wave"? Can you explain me that?
Besides, if you are talking to people who can't be expected to know what a "tsunami" is, it's much more desirable to use the more descriptive term instead. Why use the lesser-known term on purpose?
5. Loaded questions / assertions / rhetoric
Look who's talking. You are inventing completely artificial and ridiculous examples to defend your beloved term.
It is not that I love 'timeattack' more, but that I love 'tool-assisted' less.
Why? Too descriptive? May perhaps give a hint that hey, there's something more about these videos that can be seen? May actually induce people to search for info about what "tool assisted" means?
Actually, I would enthusiastically stop using 'timeattack' in favor of 'dreamrun,' as long as references to 'tool-assisted speedrun' were also switched to 'dreamrun.'
Why? People will not know what "dreamrun" means, and they will get confused. Are you doing that on purpose?
well nobody's gonna knows what your "tools" and your "assistance" and your "runs" are
if you're gonna be descriptive, just describe something as a description
otherwise just use a word
yeah
showmehowitsdonerun is all one word, right
yeah
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
There are about a million different names that can be made up for this phenomenon.
My suggestion is to put public benefit into consideration. The name should not be vague or subjective -- afterall, not everybody may consider a certain run a "dream run" or an "ideal run".
Being specific and descriptive is the best way to go, and the only title that conforms to this profile is "tool-assisted speedrun".
Is this still going on? Last I checked this topic was "only" 6 pages long. Since I realize it is futile, I'm not arguing a side anymore; I really just want this topic to die. Both terms are not perfect; they each have their problems.
One side argues that the term used must be a descriptive. Savestate/Slowdown Run is even more descriptive than tool-assisted speedrun, and it is exactly the same number of letters long. If you are looking for the most descriptive term, why isn't this being used instead?
Conversely, other side argues that "tool-assisted run" is a bland term, so a better sounding term must be used. God-Run, Miracle-Run, etc. are even more attractive terms than something derivative like timeattack. Why not use those? Why resort to something so unoriginal? Is it because timeattack is cool while at the same time being vaguely descriptive?
Finally, there is talk of precedence supported by references to a Doom Community that started it all. This community does not have to dictate what happens here. This site is not part of that community, nor has that community directly contributed to its the creation, growth, or maintenance. Moreover, constant arguments over "tool-assisted run" hints that it is not so well established. Strict adherence to precedence makes us inflexible and unchanging.
With this I start a new side of the argument. This is for those that don't particularly care what you call these runs and want this topic to be dead. Join me.
