Game objectives

  • Emulator used: lsnes rr2-β15
  • Demonstration
  • Heavy glitch abuse
  • Heavy luck manipulation

Comments

My first submission of 2014 is a Total Control TAS. I would suggest watching the movie before reading this submission text. Since this run was (just) streamed at AGDQ 2014, you can say that this was console verified :D. As you might notice, this TAS doesn't aim for speed and the reason why it doesn't end on last input is because I wanted the last picture as a suggested picture.

How did you do this?

If you really want to know then I suggest reading the submission text of the glitched SMW TAS, as the first around 100 seconds (until the game-breaking glitch) are the same.
In short: I manipulate where the moving objects (sprites) are located or where they despawn, then I swap the item in Yoshi's mouth with a flying ?-block (thus the yellow glitched shell) and using a glitch (stunning) to spawn a sprite which isn't used by SMW and since it tries to jump to the sprite routine location, it indexes everything wrong and jumps to a place I manipulated earlier with the sprites (OAM) and because of the P-Switch it jumps to controller registers and from there the arbitrary code execution is started.
Even shorter: Magic.

This run and the TASBot

So this TAS was designed to sync on the TASBot by true and dwangoAC. For example, I was limited by using only 3 multitap frames while I'm able to do 30. Though the bot can use all 8 controllers (2 multitaps) and since every controller has 16 buttons, that means 16 bits or 2 bytes for each controller, which are 2*8=16 bytes per multitap frame and 16*3=48 bytes per frame.

Suggested Screenshots

Thanks to

  • p4plus2 for helping me with more experienced ASM stuff
  • everyone that gave me weird ideas what to include in this run :D
  • AGDQ 2014 for creating a huge time pressure for me (that wasn't actually good)
  • true and dwangoAC for the console verification of this
  • YI2 for being the perfect level for Total Control

feos: Judging...
feos: Added AGDQ TASBot stream.
feos: This TAS is definitely TEH GREATEST MOVIE EVAH. Which somehow didn't prevent flamewars about it. First, I'll say about the similarities of this and the current any% run.
They use the same input to setup total control. It is known to be optimal, the fastest. Which means there is no copyright on it - in some cases only certain combination of button presses can be used to achieve the best result, and no matter how you alter it, it's basically the same.
None of these movies is a playaround within that setup time, so artistic choices would not matter. The way it is done is, again, the fastest. And therefore it was directly picked to be used in this submission (by the same author).
So what is the actual difference, after total control is gained? The any% run completes the game as fast as possible. It jumps right to the ending sequence. It is a world record in SMW. This submission does not complete the game. It does not jump to real ending. And it does not aim for speed (shortest input). Its goal is to demonstrate a concept: what can be done within SMW when total control is gained.
Second, due to heavy time pressure (AGDQ 2014), what we see here is what Masterjun came up with overall. It may be not perfect for everybody, so there is a room for obsoletion - if better stuff is programmed within total control. But for now it is the best payload existing. And posts and votes on this submission prove that.
Since this movie's goal is in no way speed, it can not be obsoleted by reaching the total control point faster, or by making input during total control shorter. Only by providing a better payload. Which will be judged by the audience response. If people like the new movie more (as happened with Pokemon total control), this one will be obsoleted by it.
Sum: accepting as a new branch.


1 2
6 7 8 9
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos wrote:
I didn't claim that no similarity was noticed by the audience. I said that it was not enough for obsoletion. Because when it is, you have MOST of the posters mention it (as they do when a submission is not entertaining at all, or obviously suboptimal). 3 out of 116 is just nothing at all.
Raw numbers and an argument out of silence does not justify completely ignoring that the movies are identical. How many of these voters have seen the previous movie? How many of them remember it? All they're voting on is whether it is entertaining - it is, that doesn't tell you if it's the same movie as before or not.
feos wrote:
Are you saying that I as a judge am unable to determine the solution without constantly imposing factors no one thought of? Did you miss the part where I use to post my possible solution before applying it? Do you indeed think that:
we must have every one who posted tell us how optimal it is to have a right to accept it.
? Am I shirking the open discussion? No. We here are figuring out the solution together. It's not Vault where it either is the fastest or isn't.
Your argumentation tactic is to ignore the obvious, and then somehow extend that to everyone saw both movies side-by-side, and consciously decided they're different. Your comparison makes no sense to me. What I do know is that based on what people are saying in this thread, we are to ignore anything from the point of the payload onwards. At which point we're left with 97 out of 99 seconds which are identical. Those last two seconds are utterly boring and do nothing to add to the entertainment factor. As a judge, if there are potential issues that no one has raised yet which need discussing, then it is your responsibility to raise them. You can thank me for raising these issues for you, so they can now be discussed at length.
feos wrote:
Now it looks like you are seriously insisting on this run obsoleting any%. Are you?
I'm not insisting anything. I'm asking you and others in the thread to give it some serious thought before deciding. I'm also offering the option that the other run already obsoletes this run, or to merge the two. This run is amazing, no one is doubting that. But as responsible judges, we cannot just turn our brains off, and ignore the issues that are in front of us. A decision has to be more than a knee-jerk reaction to the best TAS ending ever, and focus on the merits of the TAS itself.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
This run cannot obsolete the any% run because the goal of this run is not "any%" (that goal means completing the game as fast as possible, and that's most certainly not the goal in this run.) A new run that glitches itself to jump to an arbitrarily-chosen "ending routine" of the game might be argued to obsolete the "any%" run. (IMO, however, the absolutely arbitrary nature of the choice makes it a really dubious technique to be used as the main TAS of the game, but that's just me. And no, I don't like it in the pokemon runs either.)
Site Admin, Skilled player (1256)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
@Nach Thank yourself for raising the issue bothering you. I don't see anyone else wanting to take it seriously. What is obvious to me is that you love to mix every type of concept into one pot and pretend they must be structured with subordination, while the initial goal and the result of each is different. You spend so many words on that matter that I can say they make no difference to you at all. And with that, you try to expand your vision even by using personal derps (you are referring to "shirking responsibility" on my side, while I can't really recall any cases of that).
Raw numbers and an argument out of silence does not justify completely ignoring that the movies are identical.
You seem to have lost the borders of "complete ignore". I will remind you the case here. Movies ARE similar in cerеain ways. It was noted. It was not ignored. It just was not exaggerated up to the point of obsoletion. Now you come and call it "complete ignore", lol. I'm not replying to you on that matter anymore, I'd like to see the others' opinion.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Lord_Tom
He/Him
Expert player (3146)
Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England
Just saw this run...my hat is off, that is truly inspired!
Joined: 2/19/2010
Posts: 248
Nach wrote:
What I do know is that based on what people are saying in this thread, we are to ignore anything from the point of the payload onwards. At which point we're left with 97 out of 99 seconds which are identical. Those last two seconds are utterly boring and do nothing to add to the entertainment factor.
I think your interpretation of "we are to ignore anything from the point of the payload onwards" is way different from mine. I think a comparison could be made with movies which end input early but still complete the game -- in particular, monopoly 4 cpus which takes 1 minute to set up a situation which will cause all 4 cpu players to lose within the following 1.5 minutes. Obsoletion of this movie could be done based on the time-to-last-input, but you'd be mad to make an encode that stopped at the last input because the resulting movie wouldn't show the game being beaten! In the same way, you'd be mad to make an encode of this movie which stops at 99 seconds, because it would entirely cut off the section of play which showed what the payload is and what it does. For a total control TAS, I would say the goal is to deliver a payload that executes arbitrary code as quickly as possible, and to deliver as entertaining a payload as possible. (Yes, these goals may conflict.) Obsoletion in terms of delivering a faster payload should be done based on the input up to the point where the payload is delivered; but in order to understand the implications of the payload, you need to present the viewer with the resultant behaviour. For interactive payload, that means that some extra input will be necessary to demonstrate the possible interactions. This run is identical to the existing SMW any% for the first 97 seconds. However, it is perverse to ignore the differences between them after 99 seconds in terms of entertainment value, because the post-99 second section of the video is where the goal is achieved: beat the game, or demonstrate the payload. The implications of this line of thinking: * a TAS which exhibited total control of SMW in 92 seconds would be a strong candidate to obsolete this one * a TAS which simply played snake or pong better would not * a TAS which took the same time to deliver a different payload, would have to be judged on its entertainment and goal merits relative to this one There is also a significant unresolved issue which has been hinted at but which I'd like to try to state precisely: once a game has a total control glitch possible, total control may become the fastest way to beat the game. Is total control to execute an arbitrary payload a separate category from total control in order to beat the game? We currently have pokemon yellow any% and pokemon pi day which perform very similar activities for the first minute each, but end up delivering very different payloads and result in very different movies, despite the initial similarity. I think there is value in a separate "arbitrary code" branch from an "any%" branch, because when a total control glitch is used to beat the any% category, it's not clear to the viewer if the glitch used allows arbitrary code or only limited glitchy behaviour (such as Mega Man's DelayStageClear glitch). Having the separate category demonstrates categorically that this is an arbitrary code glitch.
Glitcher
He/Him
Joined: 3/24/2007
Posts: 216
Location: London, U.K.
Mitjitsu wrote:
If someone was to do an Arbitrary Code Execution TAS on this game in the future. What would count as obsoleting this TAS?
If it includes a reference to My Little Pony.
WST
She/Her
Active player (490)
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Glitcher wrote:
If it includes a reference to My Little Pony.
:3
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2665)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6451
Location: The land down under.
Glitcher wrote:
If it includes a reference to My Little Pony.
Well then.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 893
Former player
Joined: 3/31/2005
Posts: 192
Location: Argentina
Glitcher wrote:
If it includes a reference to My Little Pony.
It could play a music from the show and there could be balloons in the background and... oh wait
BigBoct
He/Him
Editor, Former player
Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH
I am of the opinion that any run which uses arbitrary code execution to an end other than creating a "game complete" condition should be placed in the "Demo tier" proposed by feos in the General forum, with obsoletions being based on such factors as...
  • Time from power-on to the TAS gaining full control of the execution flow
  • Time from gaining full control of the execution flow to final delivery of payload
  • Entertainment value of payload
(Is "execution flow" the right phrase?)
Previous Name: boct1584
Editor, Expert player (2373)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3940
Location: Germany
That was absolutely amazing and mindblowing
Joined: 4/3/2006
Posts: 269
This one is truly amazing! I am speechless other than "WOW!!!!". The voting choices I see are "YES, YES, YES".
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
minglw wrote:
The voting choices I see are "YES, YES, YES".
Be careful where you click then, since they aren't all yes. If in doubt, ask someone else to read it for you.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Experienced player (608)
Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706
Nach wrote:
minglw wrote:
The voting choices I see are "YES, YES, YES".
Be careful where you click then, since they aren't all yes. If in doubt, ask someone else to read it for you.
Whoooooooosh
Current Project: - Mario Kart 64
Former player
Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign
Weatherton wrote:
Nach wrote:
minglw wrote:
The voting choices I see are "YES, YES, YES".
Be careful where you click then, since they aren't all yes. If in doubt, ask someone else to read it for you.
Whoooooooosh
Whoooooooosh
Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign aqfaq Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign
NitroGenesis
He/Him
Editor, Experienced player (557)
Joined: 12/24/2009
Posts: 1873
when in doubt press the B button !!!
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2665)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6451
Location: The land down under.
NitroGenesis wrote:
when in doubt press the B button !!!
BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB. Wait are we all being stupid at this submission now?
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 150
Yes vote, although this looks a lot like the any% run. I'm guessing it's the same method to skip to the end credits that they use to create a boot loader for their arbitrary code execution.
Joined: 6/4/2004
Posts: 284
Spikestuff wrote:
NitroGenesis wrote:
when in doubt press the B button !!!
BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB. Wait are we all being stupid at this submission now?
He said the B button, not the B key. It's completely different!!!!
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2665)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6451
Location: The land down under.
Viewer wrote:
Spikestuff wrote:
NitroGenesis wrote:
when in doubt press the B button !!!
BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB. Wait are we all being stupid at this submission now?
He said the B button, not the B key. It's completely different!!!!
When you play with a combined controller which inputs B you know what I mean. Therefore Why are you questioning my logic?
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Joined: 1/17/2008
Posts: 133
I believe this video made the total control hack TAS as accessible as possible to people not in the TAS-loop. The payload being playable was instrumental. Only by performance of the games afterward in a live setting was the finishing touch applied. This run, properly, was a live performance. That is how it should be appreciated. That is how others should see it. Fuck the movie file. We should add the AGDQ video of the live performance to the site. Without the performance, as many have noted, it does not stand out so notably. Think you guys are judging the merits of a script without looking at the film that was made from it. tompa makes everything better.
ALAKTORN
He/Him
Former player
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
Accepting as "Executes arbitrary code" category.
You're not considering whether it should obsolete [2380] SNES Super Mario World "game end glitch" by Masterjun in 01:39.74 which has the same beginning up to the payload, and is using the same glitches?
Nach, stop trolling this submission. Please get out.
Joined: 11/9/2012
Posts: 23
ALAKTORN, stop trolling this submission. Please get out.
ALAKTORN
He/Him
Former player
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
Cyber_Kun wrote:
ALAKTORN, stop trolling this submission. Please get out.
this is another of the guy who said “no” or whatever; quality post stop spamming
1 2
6 7 8 9