What if Vault keeps accepting "anything goes", including "preset RAM"
I don't think that's what's meant by "anything goes".
"Anything goes" means that you don't put self-imposed in-game limitations to your goals other than completing the game as fast as possible (such as collecting all items, or using a certain route, or avoiding some glitch.)
"Anything goes" does not mean "you can do whatever you want", such as hacking the ROM, using gamegenie codes, modify the emulator to work in a way that the console doesn't, start from a savestate, and so on.
I don't think this is at all a question of tiers.
"Anything goes" does not mean "you can do whatever you want", such as hacking the ROM, using gamegenie codes, modify the emulator to work in a way that the console doesn't, start from a savestate, and so on.
Indeed it does not. However, if the vote in this thread is any indication, it does include allowing multiple valid hardware RAM states; and if I understand Feos correctly, that should imply that such movies are valid for (1) Vault tier if they're faster than any other run, and (2) Moon tier if people find them entertaining enough.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Warp wrote:
"Anything goes" does not mean "you can do whatever you want", such as hacking the ROM, using gamegenie codes, modify the emulator to work in a way that the console doesn't, start from a savestate, and so on.
I don't think this is at all a question of tiers.
Did I say "hacking the ROM, using gamegenie codes, modify the emulator to work in a way that the console doesn't" is what "anything goes" means regarding Vault? If I did, quote me; if I didn't, what were you trying to say regarding my question: "how to categorize preset RAM runs"?
Radiant wrote:
if the vote in this thread is any indication, it does include allowing multiple valid hardware RAM states; and if I understand Feos correctly, that should imply that such movies are valid for (1) Vault tier if they're faster than any other run, and (2) Moon tier if people find them entertaining enough.
Right.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Did I say "hacking the ROM, using gamegenie codes, modify the emulator to work in a way that the console doesn't" is what "anything goes" means regarding Vault?
Then you should word your posts better. 'What if Vault keeps accepting "anything goes", including "preset RAM"' sounds a lot like you are arguing that "anything goes" literally means "anything goes", ie. you can do whatever you want, without limits.
Radiant wrote:
However, if the vote in this thread is any indication, it does include allowing multiple valid hardware RAM states; and if I understand Feos correctly, that should imply that such movies are valid for (1) Vault tier if they're faster than any other run, and (2) Moon tier if people find them entertaining enough.
Then we'll just have to disagree. Not that it matters much, but whatever. (After all, I personally still find the use of resetting to corrupt save data to be annoying and not speedrunning, but that doesn't really matter at all.)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Warp wrote:
feos wrote:
Did I say "hacking the ROM, using gamegenie codes, modify the emulator to work in a way that the console doesn't" is what "anything goes" means regarding Vault?
Then you should word your posts better. 'What if Vault keeps accepting "anything goes", including "preset RAM"' sounds a lot like you are arguing that "anything goes" literally means "anything goes", ie. you can do whatever you want, without limits.
Sorry for using adelikat's common term to describe Vault. After all, none of his forum posts contains this formula. However during plenty IRC conversations, he referred to this exact concept as the meaning of "anything goes" (which he equals to the meaning of "any" branch):
adelikat wrote:
Vault rules say the categories are any% and 100%. The definition of any% in this case is THE FASTEST POSSIBLE COMPLETION TIME. Unfortunately, I have allowed the site to blur that simple definition of any% by having a "glitched" category that is faster than a "any%" category in some cases. I completely disagree with this categorization though. any% should be the fastest movie, then we should have a better naming of movies that forgo major skips/glitches.
The vault absolutely prefers the faster movie, not a (more ambiguous) movie that fails to do a time saving glitch.
So yeah, "anything goes" means whatever goal choice is appliedly faster for a TAS.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Vault rules say the categories are any% and 100%. The definition of any% in this case is THE FASTEST POSSIBLE COMPLETION TIME. Unfortunately, I have allowed the site to blur that simple definition of any% by having a "glitched" category that is faster than a "any%" category in some cases. I completely disagree with this categorization though. any% should be the fastest movie, then we should have a better naming of movies that forgo major skips/glitches.
Well for example, the standard run for Super Mario Bros involves warp zones. But we don't call this a "warp" run because that's the standard way of doing it; therefore, we call a run "no warps" if it doesn't do this.
So if the categorization of runs as "glitched" is not desirable, then it should be a simple matter to rename those to "any%" and name the corresponding less-glitched runs something like "no out-of-bounds" or "no teleporting".
RAM state manipulation MUST be allowed. here's why.
If it's forbidden, then it's possible for an unassisted run that gets favorable RNG from the RAM state at poweron. to beat an assisted run, which is not allowed to get the same.
A TAS must be impossible to beat unassisted. Therefore, it needs this tool.
And ANY combination of uninitialized RAM is possible in real hardware, by using cartridge swap tricks.
So we can't restrict this to "what's likely to happen after the system has beed powered off for 10 minutes"
Any tool available for real time speedrunners must also be available for TAS use, and mucking with the power switch until the RNG cooperates is allowed for speedrunning.
That said, if the RNG is easily manipulated after initial seeding (most RNGs), it's usually better to not bother. But there may be a case where it is NOT.
As a counterpoint to the above: does anyone know if the various speedrunning communities would accept a run that performed such tricks? In other words, have they had this argument yet? :)
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Says who? We are not competing with unassisted runs, and never have.
"We must allow this or else an unassisted run could theoretically beat us" is only going to cause a slippery slope.
As a counterpoint to the above: does anyone know if the various speedrunning communities would accept a run that performed such tricks? In other words, have they had this argument yet? :)
I know it exists AS an issue:
-Feasel, a runner of FF1, knows that about half of NESes have a 'typical' pattern for uninitialized memory whereas the other half are more 'random' and have other patterns for uninitialized memory. This is particularly important as it determines what battles you get. On top of that, if you don't wait with the NES off between runs, sometimes you will get an unexpected pattern because the RAM hasn't fully settled down yet.
-PJ, a runner of SGnG, knows that the stage 3 boss (the curled up looking thing)'s spawn location is different for every single card of SGnG. IIRC he has a cart where the position is not optimal.
I haven't heard of people putting on game A then game B to manipulate uninitialized RAM or anything like that, though.
