dem questions--
input file:
The battle RNG can be abused online; for this reason I won't upload it because I do not want to openly share the information on how the battle RNG operates. I've demonstrated this to my friends at Smogon and we've decided to keep battle RNG under wraps due to BW being the active game.
So...if a TASer somehow figured it out alone, and submitted the TAS, online play would be wrecked? 0_o
dem questions--
input file:
The battle RNG can be abused online; for this reason I won't upload it because I do not want to openly share the information on how the battle RNG operates. I've demonstrated this to my friends at Smogon and we've decided to keep battle RNG under wraps due to BW being the active game.
So...if a TASer somehow figured it out alone, and submitted the TAS, online play would be wrecked? 0_o
Since I already uploaded a video of the run, the only thing the input file would provide is insight for how the luck manipulation worked. Everything but the Battle RNG is super easy to find information on; how I manipulated the Battle RNG is the majority of the luck abuse. That's the benefit of the input file, and giving out the input file is essentially giving out how to abuse the Battle RNG.
That's my stance and it definitely won't change :P
I thought the Battle RNG from Platinum onward only advanced when it was called? How do you call it without using a move?
Is it possible to manipulate and get, say, all critical hits in Platinum or HG/SS?
I thought the Battle RNG from Platinum onward only advanced when it was called? How do you call it without using a move?
Is it possible to manipulate and get, say, all critical hits in Platinum or HG/SS?
you're right. the game only calls for a random number when you need one. to keep trying for a seed you would have to stand there just before the battle is starting and keep reloading a save so timer0, the rssi data, the time, and a few other things keep changing.
in gen 4 it's just based on the time, so you would have to keep reloading as the seconds change to get new seeds.
Ok, so say I want to get 5 critical hits in a row.
In RBY/GSC/RSE/FRLG/DP, I could potentially make a savestate right before each turn, and reload each turn individually to try to get a critical hit. Given a 1/16 critical chance (I know RBY's are different), this would take around 80 reloads on average.
In Plat/HGSS/BW/B2W2 and presumably all future games, the only way to get 5 critical hits in a row is to manipulate the starting seed before the battle begins. This would on average require searching through 1,048,576 (16^5) seeds.
Is the above accurate? If not, what would be a more accurate description?
Since I already uploaded a video of the run, the only thing the input file would provide is insight for how the luck manipulation worked. Everything but the Battle RNG is super easy to find information on; how I manipulated the Battle RNG is the majority of the luck abuse. That's the benefit of the input file, and giving out the input file is essentially giving out how to abuse the Battle RNG.
That's my stance and it definitely won't change :P
So...when are you ever going to release the input file?
On a wild guess, when people stop playing Gen V on Wi-Fi, so that abusing the in-battle RNG could no longer be really used to cheat anyone in Wi-Fi battles. Which will probably be in like 2 more generations or something.
On a wild guess, when people stop playing Gen V on Wi-Fi, so that abusing the in-battle RNG could no longer be really used to cheat anyone in Wi-Fi battles. Which will probably be in like 2 more generations or something.
.....or when nintendo ever shuts down their wifi servers. :P
dem questions--
input file:
The battle RNG can be abused online; for this reason I won't upload it because I do not want to openly share the information on how the battle RNG operates. I've demonstrated this to my friends at Smogon and we've decided to keep battle RNG under wraps due to BW being the active game.
On a wild guess, when people stop playing Gen V on Wi-Fi, so that abusing the in-battle RNG could no longer be really used to cheat anyone in Wi-Fi battles. Which will probably be in like 2 more generations or something.
On a wild guess, when people stop playing Gen V on Wi-Fi, so that abusing the in-battle RNG could no longer be really used to cheat anyone in Wi-Fi battles. Which will probably be in like 2 more generations or something.
what do you need to know, exactly? just ask.
It's not something I need to know exactly; it's just somewhat disheartening to realize that if Game Freak doesn't change how their in-battle RNGs work (and they have no reason to), then it will basically be impossible to, in good conscience, ever submit a TAS of a Pokemon game post-Platinum here (since doing so would essentially allow any players of that game to cheat others on Wi-Fi almost undetectably).
It's not like not TASing the games will make it impossible for people to disassemble the RNG... Better TAS it anyway and make it more visible how bad the problem is to Gamefreak instead of trying to hide it from them and help cheaters stay unknown.
it's just somewhat disheartening to realize that if Game Freak doesn't change how their in-battle RNGs work (and they have no reason to), then it will basically be impossible to, in good conscience, ever submit a TAS of a Pokemon game post-Platinum here (since doing so would essentially allow any players of that game to cheat others on Wi-Fi almost undetectably).
I have a question, why would submitting an input file to TASVideos suddenly allow anyone on earth to manipulate RNG in online battles?
Warning: Might glitch to creditsI will finish this ACE soon as possible
(or will I?)
I have a question, why would submitting an input file to TASVideos suddenly allow anyone on earth to manipulate RNG in online battles?
All I'm wondering is how does "Kaphotics" expect no one to ever find out about it especially after he already uploaded proof (and also posted) that it's possible in real time.
Zowayix wrote:
It's not something I need to know exactly; it's just somewhat disheartening to realize that if Game Freak doesn't change how their in-battle RNGs work (and they have no reason to), then it will basically be impossible to, in good conscience, ever submit a TAS of a Pokemon game post-Platinum here (since doing so would essentially allow any players of that game to cheat others on Wi-Fi almost undetectably).
Uh....
Kaphotics wrote:
dem questions--
input file:
The battle RNG can be abused online; for this reason I won't upload it because I do not want to openly share the information on how the battle RNG operates. I've demonstrated this to my friends at Smogon and we've decided to keep battle RNG under wraps due to BW being the active game.
That doesn't sound like "good conscience" whatsoever. Heck, looking back, it sounds more like he's abusing it with his group of friends. :P
Wind Waker had the case where the game was abused in front of nintendo in the HD remake demo and the bugs got corrected on the final version(zeldaspeedruns forum has a thread about it).
I hope you think about releasing this after xy are released.
TAS i'm interested:
Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS?
i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
On a wild guess, when people stop playing Gen V on Wi-Fi, so that abusing the in-battle RNG could no longer be really used to cheat anyone in Wi-Fi battles. Which will probably be in like 2 more generations or something.
what do you need to know, exactly? just ask.
It's not something I need to know exactly; it's just somewhat disheartening to realize that if Game Freak doesn't change how their in-battle RNGs work (and they have no reason to), then it will basically be impossible to, in good conscience, ever submit a TAS of a Pokemon game post-Platinum here (since doing so would essentially allow any players of that game to cheat others on Wi-Fi almost undetectably).
that's not true. the input file is basically useless for figuring it out.
Masterjun wrote:
Zowayix wrote:
it's just somewhat disheartening to realize that if Game Freak doesn't change how their in-battle RNGs work (and they have no reason to), then it will basically be impossible to, in good conscience, ever submit a TAS of a Pokemon game post-Platinum here (since doing so would essentially allow any players of that game to cheat others on Wi-Fi almost undetectably).
I have a question, why would submitting an input file to TASVideos suddenly allow anyone on earth to manipulate RNG in online battles?
it doesn't.
not to mention, if someone did manage to find the battle rng, which uses the same constants as the normal rng and is super-easy to find, using the input file to a tas would be about the least useful means to gleaning info. there's info on smogon, info on projectpokemon, and considering xfr and i did literally all of the reverse engineering on this: http://www.smogon.com/bw/articles/bw_complete_damage_formula, i know a hell of a lot about how it all works and you're more than welcome to ask me.
and keep in mind, you can't abuse the battle rng at the VGCs(including regionals, nationals, and worlds), which is the one place that really counts, because it absolutely requires either an AR or emulator.
not to mention, if someone did manage to find the battle rng, which uses the same constants as the normal rng and is super-easy to find, using the input file to a tas would be about the least useful means to gleaning info. there's info on smogon, info on projectpokemon, and considering xfr and i did literally all of the reverse engineering on this: http://www.smogon.com/bw/articles/bw_complete_damage_formula, i know a hell of a lot about how it all works and you're more than welcome to ask me.
and keep in mind, you can't abuse the battle rng at the VGCs, which is the one place that really counts, because it absolutely requires either an AR or emulator.
0_o
Welp, I guess he wasn't keeping it for personal use. I guess he just wanted more views for his channel or something.
I never understood how he thought the RNG could be manipulable in human play, that’s a ridiculous claim that is never true for any kind of RNG
except for the really shitty RNGs that aren’t based on frame timings, which are few from my experience, luckily; and Pokémon has always been based on frame timings since gen I, AFAIK
...If I recall correctly, the in-battle RNG from Platinum onward is no longer based on frame timings. There's one seed set at the very start of the battle (this one is time-sensitive), but afterward, the RNG only cycles when it needs to. If you make a savestate right before selecting a move, and said move lands a critical hit, then reloading that savestate will always make that move critical hit, no matter how long you wait between loading the savestate and confirming the move.
...If I recall correctly, the in-battle RNG from Platinum onward is no longer based on frame timings. There's one seed set at the very start of the battle (this one is time-sensitive), but afterward, the RNG only cycles when it needs to. If you make a savestate right before selecting a move, and said move lands a critical hit, then reloading that savestate will always make that move critical hit, no matter how long you wait between loading the savestate and confirming the move.
that's correct. all the gen 3 games were constantly advancing the rng* which made manipulating it a chore, though still possible. gens 4 and 5 only call the rng when it's needed.
the difference between gens 4 and 5 is in the seeding. in gen 4, as i recall, the battle rng was in the same place as the normal rng. when a battle would start, the current seed would be saved and a new one would be created. this seed would be used for the length of the battle and then the old seed would be put back when the battle ended. gen 5 is completely different. the overall codebase got a pretty massive overhaul for gen 5- likely in preparation for moving to the 3ds. they use a.. sort of complex method of creating the seed by taking the SHA-1 hash of an array of low-entropy data.(a timer, graphics engine status, rssi, wireless hardware status, vframes since boot, etc) so, while all the low-entropy data isn't initialized when the game boots, which is why gen 5 is still rng-able, it certainly is when a battle is initialized. so without an ar or emulator, you can't actually do anything with the battle generator.
*it has no real use, mind you. it was done literally for the sake of helping a crappy generator's "randomness".
I never understood how he thought the RNG could be manipulable in human play, that’s a ridiculous claim that is never true for any kind of RNG
except for the really shitty RNGs that aren’t based on frame timings, which are few from my experience, luckily; and Pokémon has always been based on frame timings since gen I, AFAIK
The RNG in Pokémon Emerald is based on only frame timings, and people manipulated it in human play regularly. With practice, you can hit an individual frame 1 time in 3 if you have an accurate timer helping you out (this is about what I can manage, and it's consistent with other people experienced at that sort of thing I've been talking to).
In generations 4 and 5, the RNGs tend to not depend on the individual frame, and only advance when they're called into.
In general, though, you should expect the vast majority of RNGs to be manipulable by humans. It's done in Final Fantasy games all the time, for instance (except probably the MMOs). Pretty much anything short of something that measures the timing of every single button press, or that randomizes based on lag, is going to be manipulable by humans; it'll take more tries than a TAS does, but there's nothing inherently difficult about it.
@ais: I wasn’t really talking about stuff where you can retry over and over to be successful, I know about people abusing the RNG for perfect IVs and all that stuff in Pokémon games; given enough retries you don’t even need to manipulate anything anyway, you’re just waiting for the magic to happen, that’s hardly “manipulation”, it wouldn’t work for Wi-Fi battles
I’m curious about what you said on the Final Fantasy games though, how do people manipulate that?
I’ve never seriously looked into any game’s RNG as when I do it’s while TASing and I don’t need to come up with human manipulation methods to manipulate RNGs while TASing, but the one game where I know the RNG well (Advance Wars DS), there have been no methods found for human manipulation (except for a very minor one), and I would expect all the other games I’ve seen RNGs of to be the same (for one example, dropped items in the Megaman series)
I’m curious about what you said on the Final Fantasy games though, how do people manipulate that?
Final Fantasy 1 through 8 (and possibly beyond) have one of the simplest RNGs possible - a table of 256 bytes that advances one every time it is needed.
Examples of RNG manipulation possible:
-When doing hard FF1 challenges like solo white mage/solo red mage, it's possible to set up a boss battle such that exactly 256 RNG values are used per turn and so the outcome is always the same. This is called a 'cycle'.
-In FF6, using an Echo Screen manipulates the RNG to always give you a favourable outcome from slots:
"a. Enter combat. The next steps should be executed ASAP.
b. Use an Echo Screen. Doesn't matter on who, as long as the smoke appears.
c. When the animation finishes, confirm the first 7.
d. Confirm the last two 7's and use Joker Doom."
http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/554041-final-fantasy-iii/faqs/43660
So this is basically turning into the discussion of this thread.
Let me try to summarize:
as Bond697 is saying, the input file is useless for figuring out RNG
there are a lot of information about this RNG on the internet and they are somewhat easy to find
Thus there is no problem in submitting a TAS of a Pokemon game after D/P (not including X and Y because of obvious reasons).
I don't know how any other discussion would fit into this thread, really...
Warning: Might glitch to creditsI will finish this ACE soon as possible
(or will I?)
