Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
How about calling them just glitched and any% (which transcribes in having no branch)?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I mean, memory corruption looks like a sane enough borderline to separate 2457M as "glitched" and 950M as "any%", with a room for improving each of them in their own branches.
boct1584 wrote:
Are we going to have two glitched runs? One for the wrong-warp and one for arbitrary code execution?
I don't think so.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I mean, memory corruption looks like a sane enough borderline to separate 2457M as "glitched" and 950M as "any%", with a room for improving each of them in their own branches.
boct1584 wrote:
Are we going to have two glitched runs? One for the wrong-warp and one for arbitrary code execution?
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6444
Location: The land down under.
Technically no as it requires different methods, and a different game overall.... Right?
Because their Red and Green is their Red and Green but their Blue is our Red and Blue
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Technically no as it requires different methods, and a different game overall.... Right?
Because their Red and Green is there Red and Green but their Blue is our Red and
Blue
I see there has been discussion on obsoleting the 21 minute movie with this one. I dislike that idea. As stated in the SML2 topic, I think these three categories are the most appropriate:
- any% with the pipe glitch to skip levels (standard run)
- 100% glitchless (shows most of the game)
- glitched (this movie)
This movie doesn't ever visit Wario's castle. Even the staff credits BGM is wrong...
To me, it would be a bad decision to have this movie replace the current movie.
In the case of Chrono Trigger I think the decision was a bad one because I think save-corruption should always be a different category. However, I'm fine with the Earthbound example - though the old movie shows more of the game's content.
MUGG wrote:
I just realized the obsoletion did already take place.
What happened to the any% category?!
I really wish this obsoletion could be reverted, because it's just wrong in my opinion. People around the internet, as I've seen, commented on this movie to contain a 'bad ending' and being a bad speedrun (because it skips everything and has the wrong credits BGM)... And we didn't even verify this glitch route on a real gameboy yet. I strongly recommend we seperate the previous movie and this one.
Talking about precedents, Chrono Trigger's obsoletion was a bad decision anyway in my opinion. In Earthbound you could at least see half of the game. It still wouldn't have been bad to use seperate categories in both cases, in my opinion and I'm sure others think the same. I might as well read up on the corresponding submission texts, but maybe someone could explain to me why those obsoletions took place? Why the need to keep categories minimal?
What comes to my mind now is what should a new any% run look like. It would need to forgo all the glitches related to pausing & quitting? (emphasis by feos)
By pausing & quitting at the correct time, you can take one item to another level.
This can be used with Mushrooms, Fireflowers, Carrots, Starmans, 1-ups, bubbles, checkpoint bells, goal bells, pipes (either direction; using a downward pipe leads to the famous pipe glitch as we know it). The previous movie used the pipe glitch to skip levels and used a checkpoint bell in moon zone 1 to skip some of moon zone 2.
Since apparently the pipe glitch is banned for other categories, what about all the other related glitches?
Banning the trick with the bubble would kill the other out of bounds glitch (bubble glitch in conjunction with object-loading glitch). It would probably not be used anyway.
Why both must co-exist? Because one just plays the game with heavy glitches, while the other deliberately corrupts the memory and soft-hacks the game.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
How exactly does a 100% run of SML2 differ from a non-glitched any% run? The only secret level I know of is the one accessible from the first level of Macro Zone that shortcuts you to the boss level.
EDIT: What I'm wondering is whether we have room on the site for both an any% and a 100%. I agree with Nach that the glitched run should not have obsoleted the any%, although my opinion on WHY may be different. I think that even though they both use the pipe glitch, there's enough differing content between the two to warrant keeping them separate.
However, I would definitely argue that a new any% or 100% shouldn't use the pipe glitch at all. (Presumably that's why Nach suggested the v1.2 ROM.)
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
SML2 has 6 secret levels.
Edit:
It also has some "out of the way" levels which you don't see in a normal run. Like that one level on the main map in middle of nowhere, or the two alternate paths in tree zone.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Is 100% run being worked on?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
boct1584 wrote:
What I'm wondering is whether we have room on the site for both an any% and a 100%.
Probably, although I don't see how that's relavent to this discussion.
boct1584 wrote:
I agree with Nach that the glitched run should not have obsoleted the any%, although my opinion on WHY may be different. I think that even though they both use the pipe glitch, there's enough differing content between the two to warrant keeping them separate.
I agree with your point, but in regards to the pipe glitch, there's a huge difference between the two runs. One uses the pipe glitch and then walks around trying to find a short cut to the exit, or an exit block floating around. The other uses the pipe glitch, and then proceeds to intentionally modify memory to force a game over block to appear and goes for it.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Again no objections. [1564] GB Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins by andymac in 21:43.52 was unobsoleted.
[1920] NES Battletoads "warps, 2 players" by feos & MESHUGGAH in 11:04.72
VS.
[2100] NES Battletoads "game end glitch" by TheZlomuS & DyLaX in 01:02.68
This situation is pretty similar to SML2. In any%, some trick was used to skip half the level (which is anyway an autoscroller), in glitched the same tricki was used to corrupt memory and run Game End routune.
The fun fact is that now, the level skip glitch is even used by real-time speedrunners with quite some consistency, on console.
http://www.twitch.tv/jc583/c/2890523
Can you deliberately corrupt memory on console in real time? I have never seen that. To me it kind of means that setup for memory corruption can not be banned as long as memory corruption is not used. And if it is not used, there is no reason for obsoleting any% by glitched.
Actually, skipping to the next level is the least one can do with this trick to still save time. It either becomes slower (restart the broken level, game over), or jumps into glitched levels that are farther, or runs the Game End.
The question is, would future Battletoads runs be allowed to die on a jet to skip half the level? What about warpless? Surf City can be skipped similary there. Only the autoscroller in Level 07: Volkmire's Inferno can't be skipped like that. Though it can still be glitched to some range (wasn't carefully examined).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Movie Super Puyo Puyo 2 obsoletes Kirby's Avalanche despite looking completely different except gameplay.
Just because "Kirby's Avalanche" is pretty much an "Amercianized" version of "Super Puyo Puyo 2" doesn't mean they are the same game. =/
Infact, with that logic, a "Doki Doki Panic" TAS can be submitted to obsolete the SMB2 run.
Isn't there a precedent on tasvideos where two different games with identical gameplay but differing graphics/console/whatever, only one can have a published TAS?
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris
Since someone brought up Puyo Puyo, I have to say this,
Puyo Puyo (and Dr. Robonick's Mean Bean Machine and Kirby's Avalanche) do NOT have the offset mechanic. What that means is that an attack from the opponent or your own attack, can be countered if you remove (pop) Puyos.
Puyo Puyo 2 (Tsu) and any Puyo game after, have this mechanic. Though, 15th and 20th anniversary has a mode where you play classic Puyo Puyo with out the offset rules.
Puyo Puyo Fever and any Puyo game after, has the Fever mechanic. Which uses the offsets you and your opponent do to give time and adds to the Fever counter.
So Puyo Puyo, Dr. Robonick's Mean Bean Machine and Kirby's Avalanche are basically the same game. Puyo Puyo 2 is a separate game.
The question is, would Puyo Puyo 2, Puyo Puyo Sun (3) and Puyo Puyo 4 be considered the same game? Puyo Puyo Fever is different from Puyo Puyo Fever 2. 15th anniversary and 20th anniversary are basically the same. Puyo Puyo 7 is a different game as well.
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war.
The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
Isn't there a precedent on tasvideos where two different games with identical gameplay but differing graphics/console/whatever, only one can have a published TAS?
I thought we allowed ports and stuff like you described in the vault now. Although it doesn't seem to explicitly state so and I'm only basing this on recent port publications of mario games, so the article needs some clarity.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
If no one cares about toads branching I will apply my own decision.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
If no one cares about toads branching I will apply my own decision.
I care. I would be fine with having all of them as seperate branches. (e.g. glitched, 2 player warps, 2 player warpless) because they are all different enough IMO. I also dislike warpless obsoleting warps (why not in other games like SMB if you're going to do it in battletoads?) and I'm not that fond of having 2 player obsoleting 1 player, because you have to game over in 2 player, which doesn't look good. For entertainment purposes, 1 player looks better, because there is no glitch stopping you from beating the game without getting a game over. The problem is, 2 player is almost 2 minutes faster. This tells me that 2 player and 1 player should be split as well. 1 player looks more optimised (to casual watchers), but 2 player is faster.
Current TAS:
[SNES] Jelly Boy
[NES] Street Fighter 2010
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Skipping the level by dying on a jet is also possible for 1p. As is slope glitch in level 4. So 1p warps can still be made faster than 2p warps.
But I kind of dislike having 5 (!) branches. 1p warps and warpless are very similar and equally boring, but faster (once all the tricks are applied). 2p warps and warpless are also quite similar, but slower than 1p. So I will be okay with having just 3:
Glitched
1p warps
2p warpless
And differentiate glitched only by using memory corruption after jet death. Jet death itself is not banned.
Though, since strats for entering warps can still be interesting over 1p, maybe 2p warps might also exist. 1p warpless though is completely non-exclusive to me.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I don't remember what I wrote about the toads obsoletions, but I think that [1920] NES Battletoads "warps, 2 players" by feos & MESHUGGAH in 11:04.72 should be removed from obsoletion chain. What is the boundary when a movie is considered as "glitched" while it just uses it's own "warp" to go further more in the game? It's one of my favourite NES TASes I ever worked on (not so much since feos did 90% of the work), and it definitely has its own merit that absolutely missing from any other Battletoads TASEs.
Now if I compare it with the warpless ones...........
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
