Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
Well all the other restarts were mandatory. The older routes would have crashed later on.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
Dangit, I compiled everything. And it seems to work(the emulator atleast)! But.. it makes the TAS input unusable? O_o I got every file in the source code in the correct places.. hmm.. I'll try and figure this out.. and I mean unusable as in the Main stick doesn't work.. Either I'm being dumb or this source code hates me.. I HAVE to be doing something wrong. I put on input display to see if the main stick was working, but it wasn't. And yes I have 'read-only mode' on 'read-write mode'. Sorry for bothering you ONCE again Abahbob.
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
The TAS input won't work, as I just did a quick way to get lua working by making it go through the TAS input. You'll have to always have Visual Studio/c++ open and be running it in debug mode, as well as have TAS Input open.
http://puu.sh/3hpsS
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
I'll try my best to try and finish this. Thanks!
EDIT: Wouldn't that mean I would have to get your dolphin version? If so then more work for me, yay! XD
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
So how's that TAS coming along?
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
Very time consuming and frustrating for me. The first superswim is extremely difficult. But hopefully I will manage. I'm losing alot of motivation cause I've been working on it for so long. The first few minutes isn't enough for a WIP. I need it to show off a few tricks and differences from your run. Just cross your fingers I don't lose ALL motivation. I need this run to be as good as possible >_<
Edit: I should also mention I've been busy with my TF2 career. I won't go completely off topic with that though.
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
Yeah, just watching back through my WIP I've noticed a couple of unoptimized spots. Good luck, and I know it's really easy to lose motivation.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
CGF95, IMO you should make a testrun/testruns or do little playarounds/mini-TASes of just one thing, otherwise you WILL get burned out, because you start with 0 wind waker TASing skill and demand absolute perfection of the most minute, tedious, tricky, boring details right out the gate if you do it like this (ESPECIALLY if you convince yourself every superswim has to be 100% perfect and you have NOTHING else to work on). I suggest having fun TASing the game before getting into harder work.
Yeah, I think that's my problem too Patashu. Thanks for the suggestions. And sorry I haven't been really active lately. I'll try to not get burned out!
My suggestion would be to try individual level TASes of dungeons (showing the TAS route, but not necessarily being as optimal as possible). That both serves the purpose of showing off what people want to see the most and being the most fun to do/the best practice :D
A TAS Puppet Ganon fight (e.g. no skip) would be sweet too, it would be interesting to compare to Cosmo's best Puppet Ganon fight.
I'm also interested in that Gohdan boss fight glitch (posted earlier in the topic) where you can hit his hands with bombs as well as arrows. Can it save time? What would a TAS look like?
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
Here's a playlist of my first testrun type thing (the route ended in a crash and a dead end): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUmYeOgY1Fw&list=PL9243E04962A24DB0&index=1.
If you're going to do individual dungeons, I would recommend Forbidden Woods and Tower of the Gods. Both have been done, but the other dungeons have crazy routes.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
I don't think so. I think it would be like a SM64 BLJless TAS. The only problem is that a non-superswimming TAS would be way longer.
Sorry, gonna have to agree with Mitjitsu here. A non-superswimming TAS would be quite boring to watch. Why? Two (main) reasons:
Aside from the zombie hover and dry storage, there aren't a lot of time saving glitches to be done, so it won't exactly blow your mind to see how fast things can be done.
The other reason is that the only other way to move faster across the sea is to use sail pumping and this is going to take minutes usually to get from one place to the next. It gets dull really fast.
Sm64 is a lot smaller in comparison in terms of movement, so you can get around the castle quite fast. There's a ton of other tricks and glitches performed to keep the TAS entertaining. As Wind Waker as of now doesn't have any other major time saving glitches (other than Dry Storage and Zombie Hover), a non-superswimming TAS would not be very entertaining to watch.
I'll disagree with this. A TAS isn't about one or two tricks: it's about everything, so if you take away one thing, you still get the rest left.
Beating bosses and dungeons in super human ways are still very entertaining. More so than superswim, I'd argue. Superswimming is cool maybe the first time you see it. Then it's all about sequence breaks.
Anyway, sure, sailing might not be so fun, but who says you can't skip those sections? You don't need to watch it all.
I'll disagree with this. A TAS isn't about one or two tricks: it's about everything, so if you take away one thing, you still get the rest left.
Beating bosses and dungeons in super human ways are still very entertaining. More so than superswim, I'd argue. Superswimming is cool maybe the first time you see it. Then it's all about sequence breaks.
Anyway, sure, sailing might not be so fun, but who says you can't skip those sections? You don't need to watch it all.
Sure, but it just adds more time and doesn't give us anything else entertaining in return.
In SM64, a BLJ-less run was entertaining to watch, because there were a lot of other tricks that can be used instead of the BLJ. It's just that the BLJ is faster.
Wind Waker has nothing else, it's either sail pumping or super-swimming. Superswimming is a lot more entertaining than sail pumping and it's faster. If you don't use it, you're just arbritarily adding extra time to the TAS without showing off other entertaining parts. Dungeons would be unaffected, they'd still be beaten equally fast (except for maybe Tower of the Gods).
The only advantages (I guess) sailing would have is no sequence breaks, but superswimming can do that equally well.
The actual advantage is that sailpumping is much easier to optimize than superswimming. So it makes making a TAS easier.
Still, superswimming saves too much time in my opinion to favor sailing.
Absolutely, super swimming will remove some redundant and (maybe) boring parts. I'm not arguing that super swimming should not be included. It's a compromise. We get a somewhat inferior TAS because something is added that doesn't add to the entertainment value, but there is still entertainment value left even if you don't use it.
Considering it's so hard to optimize, can we not settle for something less perfect? Something is better than nothing, and perfection comes in iterations.
Well, as far as publication goes, what's the rule here? If a trick is ridiculously difficult to optimize, would it be better to not use the trick and have optimal play without it, or better to use the trick, doing it without perfect optimization, and just accept that there's probably time/frames to be saved?
I'm inclined to say "optimize it as well as you can given your limits of patience". TASVideos is not about perfect videos, just about videos that are "godlike" and "don't make mistakes". If your video doesn't have obvious flaws, just "We know we could probably do this a bit better if we spent another 5 hours on it", then I don't see a problem.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker 'Any% No Manual Superswims' Yay arbitrary categories!
The reason the TAS is so interesting of this game is BECAUSE of the superswims. They alter the route so drastically. What the route would be without manual superswims would be:
Same up to DRI.
Possible superswim to Forbidden woods, get leaf.
Greatfish, endless night
Windfall, bombs.
Savewarp to DRI.
From there it would basically be the same as the TAS route currently.
This is all implying you just want to get rid of manual superswims, which are the hard ones to optimize. But oh wait! Camera lock superswims are probably even harder! You run into the same problem, moving the control stick every frame to move slightly. And that trick with manual superswims would probably save 3-5 minutes through the entire run over just forward/backward superswims.
Ultimately it's the runner's choice. If the TAS is optimal, I'll vote yes. But please realize how much longer the beginning of the game is if you don't use superswims at all. If people have to skip through sections, is it really completely entertaining?
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
But please realize how much longer the beginning of the game is if you don't use superswims at all. If people have to skip through sections, is it really completely entertaining?
Not a problem. It will still be entertaining, if you ask me.
