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There seems to be NO potential limit for how deep we are allowed to go in manipulating the hardware. This is what perfection does. We discover not only the games limits, but the limits of common sense :D
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Let's say a game runs with 60 input frames per second and 30 visual frames per second. That means you have 2 frames of input for each visual frame. Wouldn't it be possible on a real console to hold right on frame 1 and left on frame 2 with light speed reflexes to make the game register this as pressing left-right at the same time?
That would happen only if the console polls the controller 60 times per second and buffers the pressed buttons until the application wants to read their state. It doesn't sound like anything that any console or game would do (although that's only a guess from my part.)
Console games basically never do that. Some PC games do, though, because PCs work like that by default and some games never bother to change it. (On the other hand, there's rarely a problem in pressing left+right on a physical PC keyboard; they tend to be completely separate keys.)
FWIW, with the SMW submission, I'd like it to mention an official controller that's capable of the input possible. I'm happy if it's not the normal joypad, so long as it's something that Nintendo released that's capable of providing that input.
I agree with Warp that smashing the console, or anything else modifying the console itself is wrong. But manipulating the input to a black box is fair game.
"Input for the console" isn't necessarily the same thing as "input for the game" (the latter of which can be, and often is, a subset of the former.) The electric plug of the console could be, technically speaking, considered "input". It's not input for the game, though.
In my opinion, speedrunning should be about playing the game, not about trying to corrupt it by abusing things that the console might support but does not constitute any form of gameplay. There's a reason why in most consoles there's a warning when you are saving, along the lines of "saving, please do not turn off the console or remove the game cartridge."
Resetting during saving is not playing the game, plain and simple. It's messing with the hardware.
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TASing allows DIFFERENT types of tricks that are possible with direct access to input. It can not be limited by speedrunning only, because it would not make sense to limit it this way. It's creativity. And it involves a good level of education. And it showcases something. It is interesting to do and to watch after all!
About page wrote:
If a child receives a box containing an expensive toy as a birthday present, it's possible that he'll enjoy the box more than the toy. This is creativity. We're doing the same for these games. Instead of walking on the paths created for us, we create our own paths, our own legs and so on. And we're not listening to people who say "you can't do that!". Just like children.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Sure, and you could also open the console, cut some connections and solder in some additional resistors, for fancy effects. That's still not playing the game.
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Some people also consider TASing cheating.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
In my opinion, speedrunning should be about playing the game, not about trying to corrupt it by abusing things that the console might support but does not constitute any form of gameplay. There's a reason why in most consoles there's a warning when you are saving, along the lines of "saving, please do not turn off the console or remove the game cartridge."
Resetting during saving is not playing the game, plain and simple. It's messing with the hardware.
Messing with the hardware? Excuse me?
Messing with the hardware would be opening up the console, rewiring it, soldering on things and so on. It's messing with the game. The console maker placed a reset button on the console, that button is fair game.
Listening to a "please do not turn off message" is the same as "please pay no attention to the man behind the curtain", or RPG characters that tell you to go away, but react if you pester them enough. TASing is about not doing what is expected of you, all within the framework provided. If a game stated please never push the "X button", would it be cheating to do so?
Buttons on the console and standard controller ports are what are intended to be used to manipulate the game, using them to the maximum is what TASing is all about. Sometimes that means pressing things they asked you not to press, as well as pressing things they didn't expect you to press.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I fail to see the connection. Some people consider abusing glitches in unassisted speedruns to be "cheating". So what? What does that have to do with anything?
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Warp wrote:
feos wrote:
Some people also consider TASing cheating.
I fail to see the connection. Some people consider abusing glitches in unassisted speedruns to be "cheating". So what? What does that have to do with anything?
The same your claims have to do with TASing.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
The console maker placed a reset button on the console, that button is fair game.
The console maker also put a power cord on the console. By your logic it's fair game to abuse it. Just pull the plug whenever you want to corrupt something.
Seemingly there's some difficulty in understanding what "playing the game" means. As I said in my first post, I fully understand that some people won't agree with me on what that means, or why it should be the "spirit" of speedrunning.
feos wrote:
Joined: 3/9/2004
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Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
ais523 wrote:
FWIW, with the SMW submission, I'd like it to mention an official controller that's capable of the input possible. I'm happy if it's not the normal joypad, so long as it's something that Nintendo released that's capable of providing that input.
You might be interested to know that the mouse is capable of really bizarre input, getting precise input as a human with it though is another matter.
Why though does it have to be something released by Nintendo? Nintendo released 3 controllers for the system. ASCIIWare released 3. Hudson released 2. The other companies out there released dozens of devices that did all kinds of crazythings.
I'm personally familiar with 17 different SNES controllers, and I'm sure there's plenty more that I've never seen.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 3/9/2004
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Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
The console maker placed a reset button on the console, that button is fair game.
The console maker also put a power cord on the console. By your logic it's fair game to abuse it. Just pull the plug whenever you want to corrupt something.
In fact, that's part of normal every day usage. Who here hasn't had someone turn on the washing machine or something else and have their power go out, and end up losing power to their console or computer? This happens normally, why should I not be allowed to use it to my advantage?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
In fact, that's part of normal every day usage. Who here hasn't had someone turn on the washing machine or something else and have their power go out, and end up losing power to their console or computer? This happens normally, why should I not be allowed to use it to my advantage?
The exact same logic could be used to allow bending cartridge pins, cutting connections, ejecting discs and using cheat devices.
None of those constitute gameplay, but seemingly this is something that is impossible for me to explain in a manner that can be understood. Whatever. It's not like I expected to change anybody's opinion. I will always detest hardware abuse, but it's something that I just have to live with.
Joined: 3/9/2004
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Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
In fact, that's part of normal every day usage. Who here hasn't had someone turn on the washing machine or something else and have their power go out, and end up losing power to their console or computer? This happens normally, why should I not be allowed to use it to my advantage?
The exact same logic could be used to allow bending cartridge pins, cutting
connections, ejecting discs and using cheat devices.
Exact same logic?
I've owned several consoles for more than two decades, and can't recall bending pins on any of them. Nor do I recall anyone mentioning an issue like that. How common is this?
Since when is cutting a connection normal?
Ejecting disks mid-game where the console doesn't prevent it is normal.
Using cheat devices is normal, but directly modifies the game.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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Warp wrote:
Nice non-answer.
Let's see...
Warp: Everything but speedrunning must be banned for TASing.
feos: TASing must be completely free in its creativity.
Warp: It's not playing the game.
feos: Some people think TASing isn't playing the game fairly too.
Warp: What does that have to do with anything?
feos: The same your claims have to do with TASing.
The correct answer is NOTHING. But some can't read between the lines.
The problem with Warp's points is that there CAN NOT be a strict border for what actions can be considered allowed glitches and what are disallowed glitches. Battletoads jumping over the tube is allowed or not? Dying on a jet? Performing a hyper jump? All 3 can be done on console in real time. 1 of them can break the game right to the end if you randomly press the buttons successfully. Is it playing the game? Everything here gets stuck into the personal arbitrary ideas like "TASing is cheating".
It's also amusing how people claim something for ever.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warp: Everything but speedrunning must be banned for TASing.
...
The problem with Warp's points is that there CAN NOT be a strict border for what actions can be considered allowed glitches and what are disallowed glitches. Battletoads jumping over the tube is allowed or not? Dying on a jet? Performing a hyper jump? All 3 can be done on console in real time.
I think you are confusing me with somebody else (probably somebody that only exists in your imagination) because nowhere have I said anything even remotely like that.
Apparently you are unable to comprehend the difference between "harware abuse" and "abusing programming errors in the game" and think that opposing one means opposing the other as well.
Or you are just pulling my leg and trying to troll me, which is a distinct possibility.
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Warp wrote:
Apparently you are unable to comprehend the difference between "harware abuse" and "abusing programming errors in the game" and think that opposing one means opposing the other as well.
Warp wrote:
Resetting during saving is not playing the game, plain and simple. It's messing with the hardware.
Okay.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
As a viewer, I enjoy an healthy mix of "pure" (a.k.a. play by the rules, but extremely well), software glitch abuse and heavy hardware abuse runs, as long as they're flagged as such and don't obsolete each other.
I am under the impression that there is a strong tendency towards heavy glitch abuse lately, which make me miss superhuman play. Maybe it's because most of the "classic" games have already been TASed, I don't know.
Software and hardware abuses are like laughing with the programmers and hardware engineers, while beating the game by the rules is like having a blast with the game designer.
Apparently you are unable to comprehend the difference between "harware abuse" and "abusing programming errors in the game" and think that opposing one means opposing the other as well.
Warp wrote:
Resetting during saving is not playing the game, plain and simple. It's messing with the hardware.
Okay.
So you finally understand the difference? Good.
Demon Lord wrote:
As a viewer, I enjoy an healthy mix of "pure" (a.k.a. play by the rules, but extremely well), software glitch abuse and heavy hardware abuse runs, as long as they're flagged as such and don't obsolete each other.
In case that's referring to my views on this subject, I would like to point out, once again, that I don't understand where this notion is coming from that I somehow oppose the abuse of heavy glitching.
Abusing the hardware, and abusing glitches in the game, are two completely different things. "Playing the game" does not mean "abusing programming errors in the game is forbidden."
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Warp wrote:
So you finally understand the difference? Good.
Gosh. Resetting is a gameplay action. Saving is a gameplay action. What makes doing both at once NOT a gameplay action? Being unintended by the developers? Then how the hell do you determine what is still allowed of the unintended actions to use in a TAS and what is not?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Battletoads disagree with you. Before you watch the intro, any reset you do brings you to the intro. If you finish watching it, resetting will let you skip the intro. See how reset is handled on the gameplay level? This means the game can handle reset differently, developers decide how.
Also, reset is a legal input, only some religious belief can tell the opposite. Again, there is at least one game that CAN NOT BE COMPLETED unless you seftreset. Not a gameplay action still?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Gameboy games can be reset by pressing A+B+Start+Select. And actually, games don't need to adhere to that. Mega Man II for example disables (or perhaps doesn't implement) this restart sequence.
On Gameboy games, one can't claim it's some hardware action the game has no control over. How do you feel about abusing resets here?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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I still can't see the border you draw here that isn't based on your feelings/beliefs. Feelings can't go well without any clear logical base, otherwise each time you express them you're gonna cause an argument about whose feelings are more true. Also, for such a huge community, rules must be lead by fairness and common sense. And they can develop as some important points are found (like the Vault was invented).
My point has this logical ground:
Reset is really handled on a software level by EACH game. Some do it simple, some complicate it. Saving is handled on a software level by the game code as well. Some add checks and PREVENT corruption, some don't. Abusing the fault of not checking this process is completely similar to abusing an untested collision. Please disprove that logics.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
