If we would start duping hearts I guess we would have to start duping Skulltulas since you can get 255 of them. And oh lord would that be boring to watch. Why dont we just stay inside the boundaries the game originaly gave us?
If we would start duping hearts I guess we would have to start duping Skulltulas since you can get 255 of them. And oh lord would that be boring to watch. Why dont we just stay inside the boundaries the game originaly gave us?
So at what point do we stop? 20 hearts? 24 hearts? 30 hearts? Additionally, in this particular point of obtaining items in the game, duping hearts would be void because you're not getting all the hearts. You're just picking up the same one repeatedly.
Can't we just stop where ever we happen to end up after getting all of the heart pieces? Whether that's 20 hearts, 70, or 20.25 doesn't really seem like it would matter
I agree here. To expand the analogy with Metroid Prime 2, in that game, most runners actually duplicate collectibles, not as a run around the 100% definition, but because having the extra collectibles early really helps. So if for some reason it's found useful to have more hitpoints than usual, then duplicating heart pieces to increase max HP would be fine, as long as you obtained all the intended heart pieces in the game at least once (which would leave you with more than the usual maximum value).
Why would it be absurd? Such is the definition of 100%: collect all the "unique" items in the game. If it can be collected, then do it .
If you don't like it, then you could watch an any% instead.
But what if the maximum hearts were 150? Would you collect all just because you can? ... Sounds absurd.
It's not, though. The maximum amount of hearts is not 150, so bringing that up doesn't really help anything. There are 20 and 1/4 hearts you can get in the game, and I don't see how getting all of them is debatable. It doesn't matter if you could duplicate up to a million hearts, the game gives you 20 and 1/4 heart pieces to collect, so in my opinion, you should collect all of them. The only debate I really see here is whether or not to get the extra quarter heart piece, and I think you should. That's just my opinion though, and I'd be happy to know, reasonably, why that should not be the case.
It was just a question, I don't really know how 100% TAS work. I totally agree for the 20 and 1/4 hearts, but I don't understand the extra hearts via the bow game.
I certainly didn't explain what I would, my english is bad, as my mother tongue is french. My only question was about extra hearts... I mean, the hearts collected with this glitch are no more "unique" items, in my opinion (obsiously, the first one is, actually, unique).
Just some quick thoughts:
Including non-intended items in a 100% definition seems like a pretty wierd thing to me. By that logic you might also ask:
Should the minus world be included in a warpless Super Mario Bros run?
Should MissingNo be caught in a "Gotta catch 'em all" Pokemon run?
Also, you never know what unintended items that might be discovered in the future. And if that were to happen, should old runs not be considered 100% anymore? How would you compare old runs with newer runs?
The "gotta catch 'em all" run of Pokémon we have actually does catch Missingno., but not the other glitch Pokémon (there are many more than just the well-known Missingno. and 'M). So it might not be the best example. It might be faster to catch it, though, and even if it isn't, it's possibly worthwhile for entertainment reasons.
What do you guys think. Is this or the Fire Temple + eyeballfrog thing faster?
kid:
never equip a sword
get deku stick
bottle + chus + shield
ZL
adault:
magic
eyeballfrog + FW
steal Epona -> set FW at LH
DC WW -> Deku Tree WW -> credits http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwiavf9Gisk
This is about 5 minutes slower than ganondoor and the firetemple thing should be slower too, so this is purely academic.
Edit: Hmm dumb question. Fire Temple should be faster be quite a bit.
Huh, this is interesting. From my guesstimations, the Firetemple route might actually be as fast/faster than the ganondoor route.
6:30 to well (taken from Grunz's any%)
2:30 chus
1:00 to market
6:00 market child in -> market adault out (taken from swordless' MST)
1:00 get eyeballfrog
3:00 eyeballfrog time
1:00 transitions and cutscenes
This comes down to 21 minutes. Current TAS WR is 21:50...
Ofcourse these timings are extremely rough, so I could be totally off.
Anybody got any input? Grunz?
Edit: I probably kinda underestimated the length of the fire temple. I just remembered Grunz saying once that he could do it in the eyeballfrog time.
So this is probably slightly slower than a ganondoor run, but not by much.
The "gotta catch 'em all" run of Pokémon we have actually does catch Missingno., but not the other glitch Pokémon (there are many more than just the well-known Missingno. and 'M). So it might not be the best example. It might be faster to catch it, though, and even if it isn't, it's possibly worthwhile for entertainment reasons.
I guess what i meant is, should it be a part of the actual definition? Is it a requirement? Picking it up anyway for speed/entertainment reasons is a whole different matter.
Nope, the minus world is accessed through a warp pipe so... it wouldn't belong in a warpless run.
Hahaha, that's true :p What if there was a full ("Complete all stages") run that allowed warps though?
About getting 100% in OoT, it'd be getting all the items, heart pieces and gold skulltulas that are supposed to be gotten, the heart piece in Gerudo as kid shouldn't be taken in a 100% TAS, IMO.
Also, you never know what unintended items that might be discovered in the future. And if that were to happen, should old runs not be considered 100% anymore? How would you compare old runs with newer runs?
This problem isn't unique to glitched objects. There's a very real possibility that a game will be TASed before every legitimate secret added by the developer has been found - or imagine a case where the game presents a choice between two things, but it turns out it's possible to collect them both, and it's not obvious whether the developers knew.
Therefore, I don't really think this is a good argument against including glitched objects in 100% runs when it makes sense (ie, there are a finite number of them). It's okay for definitions to evolve.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Honestly it just seems absurd to me that we should care what the developers intended. When have we ever cared about that before?
There's a distinction between the intended goals in a game and the intended methods for achieving those goals. Correct me if i'm wrong but i'm pretty sure the vast majority of TAS'es use the intended goals, but achieve them using unintended methods.
Well maybe if you only consider beating the final boss or whatever the "intended goal", and not anything else. I highly doubt any developers intended players to warp into the credits, or directly to the final boss skipping everything else, which tases do all the time.
Random thing, if we ever figure out a way to wrong warp out of Jabu (not saying that'll ever happen, though), then there's a decent chance that that would allow us to get the 38th heart piece and maybe 39th heart piece too -- you'd probably have to choose between them, though.
Ok. So I will take the time to write down what the complete definition of 100% for OoT is.
First I want to make it clear that we do not need a general 100% definition that could potentionally be used for all games here. We will be content with a definition of 100% for OoT.
All max upgraded items for each slot visible when pausing the game must be collected. Items such as the silverscale can be skipped as it would have to be replaced with the goldscale later anyways.
Itemduping does not permit you to skip collecting simular items. (rba, heart pieces, gold skulltullas)
Dungeonspecific items such as the map, compass and bosskey can not be checked for outside of the dungeon it is for, hence it is not covered under the first sentence in our definition, allowing the runner to skip these as he sees fit.
Max ammunition for items are not needed. (You don't need to have exactly 50 arrows, 40 bombs etc
upon completing the game, the biggest quiver and bomb-bag however are still needed)
Notice that the definition leaves room for skipping whichever heartpiece is most convinient to the runner. Since there are 37 obtainable heart pieces and only 36 are required to fullfill 100%
Notice that the definition leaves room for skipping whichever heartpiece is most convinient to the runner. Since there are 37 obtainable heart pieces and only 36 are required to fullfill 100%
Im sorry, but skipping an official heart piece for getting a glitched one does not feel like 100% at all. By this logic you should be allowed to glitch all the skulltulas, as long as you get 100 of them.
I am inclined to agree. It doesn't make sense. Either you exclude glitched hearts pieces or not, and if you don't, then there is no sense in skipping them since they are collectibles.
But heart pieces clearly contribute to the pause screen, so according to your definition, it does not make sense to skip them.
Since there are 37 obtainable heart pieces and only 36 are required to fullfill 100%
If there are 37, why are we skipping one? That doesn't sound like 100% to me.
Again, i don't see how it makes any sense for us to care that one of them was never intended to be there. What matters is that it IS there, so if our goal is to get everything, we must get it.
