Joined: 7/12/2009
Posts: 181
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Does 100% mean COLLECT everything or DO/BEAT everything?
Considering the term came from the metroid series, let's do the same way it does: COLLECT.
We also need to decide what needs collecting:
* Everything in the EQUIPMENT subscreen (all swords, shields, tunics, boots and bomb bag, slingshot, quiver, gauntlet and scale upgrades);
* Everything in the ITEM subscreen;
* Everything in the STATUS subscreen (songs, stones, medallions, the rumble pack item, the gerudo sign thing, 100 skultulas);
* Everything in the MAP subscreen (the marker the game places in each zone indicating you collected all skultulas there);
* All heart pieces and containers and double defense;
* Magic and double magic;
- If two things can be in the same slot, consider only the best one the definition: Golden Scale and not Silver Scale, Ocarina of Time and not Fairy Ocarina
- Everything above MUST be true the moment you reach the credits. If you get an item and later loses it (even if it's to a Like-Like), it doesn't count.
That means collect everything that the game tracks and is kinda what the console 100% definition is based on.
This definition doesn't include Epona, but a glitchless run needs her to meet the definition anyway.
Also: this is the definition, not the RULES of what a run aiming at this can and can't do.
What is the argument of not getting an important object like your horse?
She isn't an item.
I think that is a poor argument. Like I said, just because she isn't an item does not mean she shouldn't be obtained. My definition of a 100% run in general is to collect things which helps your abilitiy and belongs to your repository. Epona certainly helps your ability to travel faster.
Does that mean we should skip things that are completely useless?
Whether or not she can help you do things is completely irrelevant.
If Epona can help, or impact gameplay in any or way or form, should it not be considered as an ability or upgrade? Then, by that logic, Epona should be included in 100% as a requirement.
If Epona can help, or impact gameplay in any or way or form, should it not be considered as an ability or upgrade? Then, by that logic, Epona should be included in 100% as a requirement.
No? Rupees can help and impact gameplay, but i doubt anyone would argue they should be required.
Epona has to be obtained or else Epona's Song has no effect when you play it. It clearly changes what you've obtained and what you haven't.
The following stuff is something that has been used this way for a long time and should be kept this way, simply because it has been an a general agreement for a very long time, so there is no need to completely revolutionize the definition of a 100% Speedrun (at least I think it applies to all this stuff):
1) You have to have a maxed out Inventory Screen (outside of Dungeons) when you reach the credits (yeah, reach the credits, not beat Ganon). This means upgrades can be skipped as long as you have the highest upgrade. "Max. Upgrades" also applies to the Biggoron Sword Sidequest, so you have to have claim check at the end of the run.
2) Your Inventory mustn't be fucked up in the end. Even if you have the power of the Gold Gauntlets while you Inventory Screen is fucked up due to RBA it doesn't count as having Gold Gauntlets.
3) All Fairy Uprades have to be obtained.
4) All Heart Pieces have to be obtained.
5) All Items (Hammer etc.) have to be obtained (No need to discuss this, because there is currently no way to RBA any items into your Item Menu).
6) There is no need to do all Mini Games (OoT doesn't even keep track of your records AFAIK). Most Mini Games have to be played to obtain upgrades or Heart Pieces anyway.
7) All Songs have to be learned the normal way during your speed run. In theory you could RBA Songs to save time, but you'd still have to learn them at some point in the game. This makes sense, because a Cutscene Trigger is gone after watching the cutscene.
8) You have to collect all Golden Skulltulas the normal way.
9) There is no need to plant every Magic Bean in the game.
10) There's no need to open every chest in the game, neither do you have to get every single dungeon key.
11) There's no need to buy all bombchus in the Hyrule Bombchu Shop (You can only buy each set once if I remember correctly)
12) The Mask Sidequest has to be completed.
13) Epona has to be obtained.
14) The bottles have to be obtained the normal way. In theory you can RBA the bottles before hand to save time, no idea how it would save any, though.
Now let's get to the grey areas. Thanks to the above definitions, many grey areas are already gone or became a lot smaller. If we set above definitions as general rules, then stuff like "all keys" doesn't have a place in the following list:
- Is it necessary to obtain Maps/Compasses/Boss Keys? If you argue, that you need most Skulltulas, because your Dungeon Map Screen shows them after you've collected them, then you clearly need those as well. Because of definition 1 it would make sense to get them.
- Do you have to beat every Boss? This correlates which RBA, so I'll get to this later on
- Are you allowed to Warp to the credits and thus skip Ganon? This doesn't need RBA.
- What can RBA be used for? Above definitions limit the ability of RBA a lot already, here are the main problems:
* You could RBA most medaillons. Due to having to get the Dungeon Items, losing the Light Medaillon in the process and the cutscene skips this should definitely be slower anyway. Other than that we can even skip the broken Biggoron Sword thanks to being able to get the Eyeball Frog early, so RBAing Medaillons is even further out of the way. This also applies to Song RBAing.
* Would it be allowed to RBA Dungeon Items like Boss Keys? It is very easy to RBA them, so those are not out of the way.
* Would it be allowed to RBA stuff from the Equipment Screen? As there are 2 different ways to obtain Tunics (you can buy them as well), I can't see any reason why RBAing them would be banned. I also don't know what exactly can be obtained via RBA and what items you need for this.
If the consensus is that you must obtain bottles and/or items the intended way, then why should there be exceptions to other things such as medallions and keys?
What is the reason that consensus is there in the first place?
- Is it necessary to obtain Maps/Compasses/Boss Keys? If you argue, that you need most Skulltulas, because your Dungeon Map Screen shows them after you've collected them, then you clearly need those as well. Because of definition 1 it would make sense to get them.
I would say yes. They are unique items, and can be seen on your pause screen.
- Do you have to beat every Boss? This correlates which RBA, so I'll get to this later on
Bosses only need to be beaten to get the heart piece, and medallion. If you can get those without beating the boss, i don't see a need to beat them.
- Are you allowed to Warp to the credits and thus skip Ganon? This doesn't need RBA.
As long as nothing is skipped, it would be silly not to allow this.
What can RBA be used for? Above definitions limit the ability of RBA a lot already, here are the main problems:
* You could RBA most medaillons. Due to having to get the Dungeon Items, losing the Light Medaillon in the process and the cutscene skips this should definitely be slower anyway. Other than that we can even skip the broken Biggoron Sword thanks to being able to get the Eyeball Frog early, so RBAing Medaillons is even further out of the way. This also applies to Song RBAing.
* Would it be allowed to RBA Dungeon Items like Boss Keys? It is very easy to RBA them, so those are not out of the way.
I don't really see a need for artificial restrictions. Many of its potential uses will be impossible anyway, due to interfering with the 100% goal. Everything that doesn't should be allowed, imo.
This makes sense, because a Cutscene Trigger is gone after watching the cutscene.
This doesn't make any sense at all to me. We should be trying to skip cutscenes, not watch them all.
"This makes sense, because a Cutscene Trigger is gone after watching the cutscene."
This would imply that wrong warping into a cutscene to get an item would also not count.
I don't know how to warp directly to the credits in a 100% run w/o RBA. You need the claim check, so you can't use the eyeball frog timer in the fire temple (and besides that you would have to use WW to get Nocturne, which W/O RBA is very complicated to pull off). You can't get FW on B since that requires at least doing some trivial RBA. You can't go from Deku or DC since you need the Stones to get the Ocarina of Time...
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I just wanted to say that I pretty much agree with MrGrunz's definition of a 100% run.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
I also think it's a good definition.
Collecting maps/compasses/boss keys is a good idea, as you never see this in other categories.
About the strength/diving upgrades, I'd say get everyone of them, not just the last one. No one outside of the community would understand this.
But I wouldn't really have a problem if you decide different on this two things.
The only problem I have is Epona (which, again, would only become relevant if you could actually skip her). If you require her, you could technically also require the cow in Links house. They're both not displayed as items on one of the pause screens and are rewarded to you after beating a certain minigame. The only difference is, that Epona is required for some Items, while the cow only gives you something you can also get elsewhere.
I'd say put the cow on the list if you already have Epona there, a horse race wouldn't make the TAS worse.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
About the strength/diving upgrades, I'd say get everyone of them, not just the last one. No one outside of the community would understand this.
On one hand, they are unique items which are displayed on the item screen, so it stands to reason that they should be obtained. On the other hand though, it's impossible to end the game with them, unless you skip the later upgrades. I think it might not make much sense to require we have all items at the end of the game, and then start adding exceptions.
If the map/compass/boss keys should be gotten because they are displayed on the dungeon map screens (which I support) then I think the entire map should be completed as well. Meaning: all rooms blue, all chests gotten.
I like this idea and I agree, but it may be stretching the definition of 100% too far: if you get all dungeon chests, why not all keys? Open all locked doors? I'm not sure to what extent to take this, and how much harder it will make it for the people who do the TASing, since with every new requirement a whole new set of complications arises.
100% in the vast majority of games doesn't mean 100% map. Normally it translates to achieving all the optional goals of the game (as well as all the mandatory ones, but people normally assume those are required).
The problem is defining exactly what an optional goal is, in the case of OoT.
I like this idea and I agree, but it may be stretching the definition of 100% too far: if you get all dungeon chests, why not all keys? Open all locked doors? I'm not sure to what extent to take this, and how much harder it will make it for the people who do the TASing, since with every new requirement a whole new set of complications arises.
I like this idea and I agree, but it may be stretching the definition of 100% too far: if you get all dungeon chests, why not all keys? Open all locked doors? I'm not sure to what extent to take this, and how much harder it will make it for the people who do the TASing, since with every new requirement a whole new set of complications arises.
All cutscenes!
Talk to every NPC!
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
