Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
I actually prefer Umihara Kawase to Bionic Commando/HNF. I had never played either of the games before I saw the movies, and UK showed more diversity and 'perfection' than BC/HNF did.
UK showed more diversity and 'perfection' than BC/HNF did.
Could you elaborate here? Cuz to me, there's only so much diversity to show in two minutes. BC may not have been as 'smooth' as UK, due to the NES/SNES physics engine differences mostly, but seems as close to perfect to me, anyway.
Plus there is so much more to focus on in BC. All UK consists of is timed swinging and grappling. I think a couple enemies were dodged also, but it was very minor.
I guess I'm just confused by the star because by the time I started to catch what was going on in UK, the video was over, and I was not impressed at all. UK just didn't seem like a good choice for a new user to watch - I believe that new users who haven't played either game will be wowed more by the BC video.
And with that, my two cents have been deposited. Again. Totaling four cents.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Here is where I get to ramble:
Throughout all of the BC/HNF movie, all you really see are some nicely placed grapples and shots that get the level over faster. The only thing that is really interesting about the movie is the routes used and the 'jump' that is used on a few levels (I am to assume that you don't jump in this game, correct?). The boss encounters aren't anything impressive and the gameplay, although seemingly flawless, isn't that impressive.
UK, however, shows of a lot more that BC/HNF. Sure, UK does have a superior game engine and more to work with (including controls, music, visuals, etc), but the sheer display of difficult moves and shortcuts used in such a short amount of time makes UK much more enjoyable to watch. The huge amount of different things shown in UK pretty much engulfs any diversity found in BC/HNF despite the movie length.
Also, to say that BC has more focus is a bit off. If BC had the player physics of UK, all you would see there is a bunch of timed swinging and grappling. I mean, that's all BC seems to be as it is; just swinging through areas as quickly as possible. The gun is used only to kill a few bosses, although they aren't really entertaining fights.
BC tends to be held back from being as entertaining as UK simply because of how the game was meant to be played: UK allows the player to do more.
Also, I think Phil has a point in that we shouldn't really compare these two games. Sure, they both involve working with a level to swing from start to finish, but other than that they aren't very similar. However, as long as we treat the star system as "in order for one movie to be given a star, another must lose one", we have to compare these movies based on Bisqwit's criteria. With that being said, more people seem to be wowed by Umihara Kawase than they are by both Bionic Commando and Hitler no Fukkatsu.
I am to assume that you don't jump in this game, correct?
Correct.
Zurreco wrote:
With that being said, more people seem to be wowed by Umihara Kawase than they are by both Bionic Commando and Hitler no Fukkatsu.
Yourself, Josh, and Bisqwit have spoken in favor of UK. Myself, Kyrsimys and Dr Jones have spoken in favor of BC.
Zurreco wrote:
Also, I think Phil has a point in that we shouldn't really compare these two games.
I agree with you here. I'm not sure if Bisqwit agrees, but if so, then giving UK a star shouldn't automatically remove BC's. Then again, maybe that wasn't the reason the star was removed, as I was never told specifically. I was just told to read through the previous posts in order to figure out which of the guidelines listed is the reason UK got BC's star. (Too many stars overall? Star list needing variety? Audiovisually attractive?) Maybe if I re-read the forum again, it will become more clear to me. :-P
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 7/28/2004
Posts: 135
Location: Finland Realms
Whatever is the case, it feels so wrong not giving Genisto's Bionic Commando a star. That, if something, is inhumanly played and really, really top work on the site.
Edit: Oh, just noticed, the justice has happened. ;-)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
So what lost its star so we could have the Swastika-land game back? I don't notice anything in particular missing, and Sonic 2 got a star without retracting Sonic 3's star to boot. Did Bisqwit just decide that two more stars was ok, or what?
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Y'know, I really think Sonic 3 doesn't need it's star. Now, make no mistake, the movie is well-done and of excellent quality, but the game is just too long. The first time I watched it, I lost interest after the snow levels (the rocket zone, or something....) which is about halfway through the movie. The second time I watched it, I lost interest at the carnival, which is even earlier. The game was great fun and the movie is of excellent quality, but I think it's just too long to hold the attention of newcomers. Particularly after the snowboarding, when the levels start feeling like they're just more of the same, just longer.
Sonic 2 doesn't suffer from this nearly as badly because it's, primarily, half the length. Tails following you around also makes for a little diversity when monotony starts to rear its ugly head.
I know it's already been discussed a little, but the Genesis Lost Vikings run was absolutely stunning in places. It's also unique in that it gets more ineteresting as you go along because the puzzles get more involved and therefore you don't have such long stretches where Olaf and Baelog walk somewhere together and then wait for Erik to catch up. (Instead you have opportunities to have all three moving at the same time, like when Baelog and Erik ride the top of Olaf's shield together. O.O) Then again, I played that game over and over on my SNES from ages 10-15, so it's a game very familiar to me. As such it's impossible for me to tell how the movie looks to someone who's never played the game. =\
So does anyone want to disagree with me on that?
Here's how I see S3&K: The S3 run alone deserves a star, as does the S&K run. Mix 'em together and take away a star for being too long, and you're left with one star.
The Sonic3&K run to me is more impressive because of the way the different shields are used and the screen-scrolling glitch. Plus there is no Sky Chase zone to suffer through with its slowness and goofy ass music. However, the Sonic 2 run is also very impressive. I think both of the stars are justified. We have Super Mario 1, 2, and 3 with stars, so why not both Sonic movies? (And Xebra's current Sonic 1 WIP is looking very star-worthy as well, may I add)
And if a newbie (geez I hate that stupid term) comes here, and sees Sonic 2, and Sonic 3&K with stars, they will probably pick whichever game they liked better, or played more. This way, having both games starred is probably the best option, since both of these games were very popular.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
jxq2000 wrote:
The Sonic3&K run to me is more impressive because of the way the different shields are used and the screen-scrolling glitch. Plus there is no Sky Chase zone to suffer through with its slowness and goofy ass music.
I've already stated my argumentation for S3&K being better off having a (or the) star earlier, but I'll say that these are about the most important reasons.
What does everyone think of the current Super Mario World scenario?
Personally, I feel that both runs don't need stars. The *96 run is very good...I don't know if I thought it was quite star material, but many others did. Now I'm not saying this run isn't optimized or anything like that, but I can see someone new getting a little bored after a while watching it, with all the flying, and playing some levels twice...just things that are bound to happen with an optimized *96 run of this game.
The 13-goal run is phenomenal. Several jaw-dropping tricks to save time that just look awesome, and let's not forget the Big Boo fight. This run finds great tricks to get by before getting the cape is possible, and doesn't play too many levels with it to where flying becomes repetitive.
So what I'm saying is that the *96 run is great, but just not ideal for a star, especially with the 13-goal run completed so well. And if we're going to take stars from BC cuz UK is similar, well then why should we have two runs of the same game on our star list?
I know that some will disagree here, but that's the point - I'm just trying to bring it to everyone's attention to see what the rest of you think.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I personally think that the full SMW run is still awesome enough for a star. Sure, the short version has a few much better tricks (I would have NEVER thought to jump on a P switch over a lava pit), the full run still has a ton more tricks, and it's just neat to see what the player does at certain levels.
I don't know, I've just always had a soft spot for 100% versions of Mario games, mainly because you skip over all the good levels when you warp.
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
jxq2000 wrote:
So what I'm saying is that the *96 run is great, but just not ideal for a star, especially with the 13-goal run completed so well. And if we're going to take stars from BC cuz UK is similar, well then why should we have two runs of the same game on our star list?
Both Bionic Commando and Umihara Kawa Se have stars.
Personally, I think the 96 exit run is just too long for a star to begin with, but it hasn't decreased in quality since its publication and the standards haven't risen, so I see no reason to take its star away. Since it plays through a vast array of levels that the 13 exit run does not and the fact that about 10 minutes in the Special area is cleared and all the graphics change, I don't feel that the 96 run is similar enough to the new 13 run to void the longer one based soley on that ground. If you're going to void this one for similarity, you should also void some of the other Mario movies (most specifically 1, and probably 3) and one of the Sonic movies. And Bisqwit has already decided that similarity alone isn't enough to remove stars from those movies, so I don't see the 96 exit run losing its star either.
Newcomers don't know that there are fundamental differences between the two runs, so it is possible that they may choose the 96 exit run just because it "does more levels" then never watch the 13 exit run afterwards. If they watch the 13 exit run first however, they may get a taste of the gameplay and download the 96 exit to see how the rest of the game is handled. This is all speculation though, as I don't know what it's like to be a newcomer browsing the best movies page, but I think first impressions matter too much to cause confusion by having two runs of the identical game.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Keep in mind that a lot of people might also already be speedrun fans. Since speedruns are generally longer than superplays, I think they won't really mind watching long movies. Afterall, they're probably INTERESTED in the game they're downloading a run of.
There's nothing wrong with long movies.
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Omega wrote:
Keep in mind that a lot of people might also already be speedrun fans. Since speedruns are generally longer than superplays, I think they won't really mind watching long movies. Afterall, they're probably INTERESTED in the game they're downloading a run of.
There's nothing wrong with long movies.
Save that for when all the RPGs currently in production get finished. See if you still think so then. =P
Though, true, there's nothing wrong with long movies, it's generally better to steer clear of them in general when providing suggestions for newcomers because we don't know what will interest them. If he's the patient sort who wants to plop himself in front of the computer screen with a bowl of popcorn and a couple of Cokes, then fine. He's also patient enough to find the right movie. If we're talking about some ADD kid who was directed here from somewhere completely arbitrary, then he's just going to click whatever catches his eye, and if it's of any great length he'll probably get up and leave before it gets to anything good..... and then never come back.
Then again, those are the extremes, and most people don't fall into them. *shrug* Just sayin'....
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
SNES Super Mario World (USA) in 1:23:38 by Tim Offermann (aka. VIPer7).
Total AVI downloads: 6568
I think people enjoy this game a lot so its recommended for first time users.
I don't know, I've just always had a soft spot for 100% versions of Mario games, mainly because you skip over all the good levels when you warp.
I watched the video again...to me, the only levels that stood out were Tubular, Chocolate Secret...maybe the Ghost Ship, too.
Quietkane wrote:
Both Bionic Commando and Umihara Kawa Se have stars.
It wasn't always this way. Discussion in this forum is what made it that way.
Omega wrote:
There's nothing wrong with long movies.
I agree with this, but I also think that average length movies are better (generally). And for new people, I would think this attitude would be even more common.
FODA wrote:
SNES Super Mario World (USA) in 1:23:38 by Tim Offermann (aka. VIPer7).
Total AVI downloads: 6568
This run has been up for 70 days as of 6/11/05. 6568 / 70 = 93.82 per day.
The 13-goal run has been up for for 13 days as of 6/11/05. So to do a fair comparison of the two videos, take however many AVI downloads this video has gotten and divide it by 13.
Even this isn't a great comparison though, cuz the short run is much faster to download. Plus, seeing as how the entry does have a star, it's likely to get more downloads simply because of that.
Like I said, it's not that I think the large video isn't popular, but I think that the short video has the same amount of "wow" factor to it in a fraction of the time. If a newbie likes the short run, they will likely watch the long run as well, starred or not (unless they don't like long runs).
I honestly figured I was in the minority feeling this way, but I just wanted to make sure.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Both Bionic Commando and Umihara Kawa Se have stars.
It wasn't always this way. Discussion in this forum is what made it that way.
You're mistaken, they both had stars, then Bisqwit was trying to remove some of the recommended to lighten the clutter. So he took away a star from one of them, then he put it back after some arguing.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
