I like the idea of tiers publications. I think too many runs are rejected because of lack of entertainment, but often it's rely too heavily on viewer experience.
But, some questions and opinions:
if we are going to accept a lot of speedruns, the pages is going to be "full". Are some modifications going to be made in order to ease the pages? How it is going to be displayed? By tier pages? By games?(an list of games names and derived runs*)
I think a submission should not be already placed in a tier list before being published.
Submission of a game=>voting&judging=>Decision: accepted or rejected=>if acepted, wich tier?=>If a run of the same games with sames goals exists, it's obsoleted.
I think it's like playing with a character. You place characters in a tier list after a lot of study and experience(Dynasty warriors saga comes to mind, somes character were good looking, but very weak or "useless", they are classed after being tested)
The tiers criteria should be focused on entertainment(not sure if the word is well writted) and technique. Is the games hard to TAS? Is the audience is wide?(RPG tends to be for a restricted audience) And others stuff.
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niamek wrote:
if we are going to accept a lot of speedruns, the pages is going to be "full". Are some modifications going to be made in order to ease the pages? How it is going to be displayed? By tier pages? By games?(an list of games names and derived runs*)
Any and all of the above, but more details on this is best done in another thread, which I was holding off on starting.
I fully agree with the idea of a separate pure speed tier for any type of game.
I think the only reason "game choice" should be kept is for unapproved hacks.
Hacks haven't required prior approval for a long time. They're simply judged along with the run, both on its' own merits as a game and as a derivative work of the base game.
I think the tier system is a pretty good idea, and I agree with calling them literally.
Upper tier: Stars
Middle tier: Superplays
Lower tier: Speedruns
As far as organizing publications, a system like Speed Demos Archive uses, with each game having its' own page findable via a Google custom site search, would be our best bet, I think.
so wait, let me see if I get it. ANY game can get into the vault? Front Line, for example?
(please say yes)
I'd like to request a "random" button tier-based, though. Sometimes, I just wanna see a moon TAS instead of a vault TAS
And I agree ith "vault" being named "Speedruns" instead.
What about movies that don't finish the game, (ie "fastest crash")
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
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A TAS of the Mini Game Island in Mario Party 1 would be very interesting, but technically it wouldn't finish the game. Reaching the credits in that game would be very long and tedious.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Would this, in any way, allow for multiple versions of the same game?
I would also like to see this in the sense that a version of a game that's considered "technically inferior" to the version in another platform could nevertheless have its own TAS.
For example I once suggested that a TAS of the N64 version of Doom would be cool, but the idea was shot down because the original PC version is considered better. I think that a TAS of the N64 version would have its own merits (and could perfectly well coexist with a TAS of the PC version, if that becomes possible some day.)
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I think this is a good idea. There seems to be a common fear among rookies that they will make a run that gets rejected just because of game choice. Of course there will still be complaints that some runs are tiered down because of game choice. I think this system sounds more accepting that everyone has their own tastes in games.
I'm OK to expand the site to contain tool-assisted speedrun records that are separate from the movies that aim for entertainment, and this seems like a reasonable implementation.
Perhaps it might be reasonable for runs to be in multiple tiers (say the "moon" and "vault" tiers mentioned), say if you're making a run that's as optimised as possible but also trying to make it entertaining. (And then it could be obsoleted in either of the categories, by entertainment and speed respectively.) There will be a lot of overlap, primarily because going fast tends to be intrinsically entertaining.
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My question is, what about games that are basically the same, but on different consoles?
Resident Evil 2 for example was ported to:
PlayStation, Windows, Nintendo 64, Dreamcast, GameCube and PlayStation Network
How would that work?
The same applies to the newer Puyo Puyo games (any that Sonic Team has made).
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war.
The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
My question is, what about games that are basically the same, but on different consoles?
Thats complicated. Let's assume that a game has a PC and a N64-Version. The only differences are the limitations of the N64. Now from a technical point of view, it could still be interesting to see how one does manage to overcome these limitations and how fast this version of the game can be done. But the average viewer won't notice that.
This could also be applied to old PAL-Versions. TASes of those versions could have the same qualities as TASes of slower ports, and there are many viewers from PAL-regions that are most familiar with those versions.
And now that 6. Gen-TASing exists, we have PAL60-versions, which are actually faster!
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
I agree with this idea in principal. I can see a place for three or maybe four tiers. However, I think we should also consider a place to accept some of the borderline "moon"-tier publications that wouldn't fall under the any% or 100% categories, like walkathons, minimum button presses, or the endless Super Metroid categories.
Well, come up with a name for this category and some criteria we could use!
I will seriously consider good well thought out tier suggestions
So does that mean I should start working on an improvement to both of my submissions? :o
Demonstrations
Overview
Aims to achieve esoteric goals that are not possible for a human to accomplish.
Entertainment Requirements
Important to entertain, but not to be inherently entertaining. Some people will like the concept, others will not.
Technical Requirements
Must do something that is perceived to be impossible without tools.
The goal must be executed optimally.
Game and Goal choice
Must be clearly definable as a game.
Unless a very good reason is given as to why to do otherwise, the run must beat the game. See Vault for details.
The goal must answer some interesting "what if" question. It should make people curious as to see how the author accomplished their goal.
Speed does not always have to be the thing minimized (Ex. Points, items, jumps, button presses, input frames, etc. can also be).
When speed is not the thing being minimized, it should be optimized as a secondary goal where it does not hurt the primary one.
I have a question. What about character choice as another category? For example, in Mario Bros. 2, the fastest game uses a mix of Luigi and Toad. What about the Peach only run, or Toad only? Would that have to get a moon or can it be accepted as a pure speedrun?
Actually a better example would be Castlevania: Bloodlines. It's a very different run depending on which character you choose, and the times between the two characters are about the same. Do we only allow the fastest time or would both runs be allowed in the "Vault" category (assuming they did not qualify for a "Moon")?
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arkiandruski wrote:
I have a question. What about character choice as another category?...
I think the proposal states this quite clearly. The answer is no, the faster one wins, as fastest completion and full completion are the only categories. Using a sub-optimal character (the one with the longer completion time) would not be vaulted, it would have to be judged by moon requirements.
Now this is a proposal of course. So if you are implying you disagree with this, you need to state as such and offer a better solution :)
I'm kind of torn on that. In the case of Castlevania: Bloodlines, my instincts say that the two characters should both be represented. Same with Contra: Hard Corps.
Some people have suggested a four tier system. Maybe something like this
- Bottom tier: Pure speed. Any cost.
-- Entertainment plays no roll whatsoever here except as a tie breaker
-- e.g. Super Metroid: Xray beam of doom
- Second tier: Well defined branches (Full completion, character choice)
-- The only way entertainment applies is in whether or not the goal makes a very different run
-- e.g. Super Metroid all items
- Third tier: Entertainment runs (allows for more esoteric categories e.g. glitch avoidance, reverse boss order, CCCless, speed/entertainment tradeoffs and pure entertainment runs (see River City Ransom))
-- Entertainment is used as a barrier for making it into this tier. Runs should show a definite effort to entertain the audience rather than just speeding through the game.
- Star tier: Best of the best. Chosen by commitee
I have a question. What about character choice as another category?...
I think the proposal states this quite clearly. The answer is no, the faster one wins, as fastest completion and full completion are the only categories. Using a sub-optimal character (the one with the longer completion time) would not be vaulted, it would have to be judged by moon requirements.
Now this is a proposal of course. So if you are implying you disagree with this, you need to state as such and offer a better solution :)
What if the game is different for different characters?
What if the game is different for different characters?
And how different? In Castlevania: Bloodlines, a few of the levels branch at points to force the two characters along different paths, but that probably accounts for maybe 1-1.5 levels' worth of difference at most; everywhere else they share the same path.
The N64 Castlevania, AIUI, has different characters seeing substantially different portions of the game world, in contrast.
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No because it wouldn't be a vault submission, it would be _a_ submission. Your vote would be "I did not find this movie entertaining, no". And without sufficient audience response, but still a speedrun record, it would be a vault publication.
Can publications obsolete a higher tier one? Or would it be separate?
I don't see why not.
A possible reason not would be that a vault-tier publication obsoletes a moon/star-tier run that has a goal choice that's disallowed in vault tier. How would that play out?
Question: If "bad game choice" is removed as a justifiable reason to reject a submission, will current gruefood fodder that has been rejected for that reason be opened up to a new round of voting (like the similar event that took place a year or two ago)?
There are many games with submissions but no published TASes, and the verdict has often been bad game choice. Should they all get a new chance and a new round at the workbench? Should this be automatic, or should there be a nomination thread (like with that revoting event)?
Another question: Even if "bad game choice" is thusly removed as a reason for rejection, does that mean that any submission for a game that has no published TAS would be automatically accepted, or would there still be a minimum standards of quality that the TAS must surpass? For instance, if the run looks sloppy or seems to have suboptimal parts that could be improved, would that still be grounds for rejection (even if it's the first submission ever made for that particular game)?
If the answer to both questions is yes, then I assume that at least some of the previously rejected submissions could still remain rejected even after the re-evaluation...
Another question: Even if "bad game choice" is thusly removed as a reason for rejection, does that mean that any submission for a game that has no published TAS would be automatically accepted, or would there still be a minimum standards of quality that the TAS must surpass? For instance, if the run looks sloppy or seems to have suboptimal parts that could be improved, would that still be grounds for rejection (even if it's the first submission ever made for that particular game)?
The "must match or beat existing records" rule wouldn't be relaxed for vault movies. If a seemingly-suboptimal movie is submitted, then, the easiest way to reject it would be to demonstrate that it isn't optimal in some area, either by linking to an existing run that is faster, or by having another player quickly make a short movie demonstrating superior technique in some part of the run. If the submittor cannot justify his worsened performance for that section, then he's failed to match or beat existing records.
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I have a question. What about character choice as another category?...
I think the proposal states this quite clearly. The answer is no, the faster one wins, as fastest completion and full completion are the only categories. Using a sub-optimal character (the one with the longer completion time) would not be vaulted, it would have to be judged by moon requirements.
This reasoning doesn't make sense to me. Why couldn't there be multiple categories for the same game in vault publications? Warpless, glitchless, 100%, 1P/2P, suboptimal characters and alternate endings would automatically be ruled out of the vault if they're not judged entertaining enough. If a category is considered valid for a game, its entertainment value should not matter for publication.
As for multiple versions of the same game, I think it's better to allow them all, even if the strategies used turn out to be identical. This will make the records more credible IMO.
So what about the movies that have alternate goals, like the 70stars w/o glitches? will it fall under no glitches?
Also, using Castlevana Bloodlines as an example, if someone discovers a way to beat the game faster with the "spear guy", will it obsolete the "whip guy" TAS, the way I see. then, what would happen with the other movie?
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
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