Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
creaothceann wrote:
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
Snufflimz wants to know if you guys want button inputs in the video?
Yeah, why not?
True!!! Plus its good to have like that anyway because you can play it frame by frame in Windows Media Player Classic. So it becomes really easy to access. I still would like more opinions on that though but, I'm sure everyone will agree to have button inputs included.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
Holy shit thanks Reeve, I really appreciate it!!! You really didn't have to do all that.
Snufflimz wants to know if you guys want button inputs in the video?
Also Hero any luck finding that Grapple Beam .smv file you mentioned before?
Edit:
Hero did you mean the trick Taco and Kroile did? The one when they tried to glitch through the ceiling, but it didn't work?
Edit 2:
This???
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1722489105/Maridia%20Check.smv
I don't have an smv of it, but it uses the morph/unmorph technique after releasing the grapple beam when under water to gain vertical height. This was done in our RBO run with the grapple beam in several of the maridia rooms. The application in the 100% run would simply be to gain faster vertical height through the grapple block hole that disappears and you would normally jump through.
The smv just shows how to do the trick, but isn't there a smv with the trick beeing used in the one block before SpringBall? I mean, not the smv where you try to go through the ceiling.
Btw, here is the other smv you requested, Forensics.
smv
There is no words good enough to describe how amazing the new 100% run is gonna be!!!!!!!!!!
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
The smv just shows how to do the trick, but isn't there a smv with the trick beeing used in the one block before SpringBall? I mean, not the smv where you try to go through the ceiling.
Btw, here is the other smv you requested, Forensics.
smv
I can't thank you enough Reeve your making Joe's (Snuffilmz) job much easier!!!
The smv just shows how to do the trick, but isn't there a smv with the trick beeing used in the one block before SpringBall?
What a fucking dumb i am. I only saw the first smv where he says he found the trick, but didn't see the other one with it beeing usefull. That's a fucking cool trick. I thought Samus would only float with the grapple glitch while inside the water, but it seems i was wrong.
Edit: Btw, this is probably the strategy that's going to be used to defeat Kraid, unless something new is found.
smv
Just in case you wanna put this in the video too as it's a big improvement over the strategy used in the 100% run.
Edit2: Using this Grapple glitch, i had an idea that could prove faster than the usual strategy.
When Samus emerge in the Big Maridia Grapple room and you're going for the northwest passage, instead of charging the shinespark, run in full speed, jump in the third gap (same one as you would release the shinespark), Samus will hit the wall and keep going up and will probably be in a good position to use the grapple for full speed in that strange creature. Then use the trick going up and right to the door, but try to go through the door still using the glitch, so you can keep going up in full speed till the door in the ceiling, reaching the area where you collect the missile pack in the right. I have no skills to test that, so i really apreciate if any of you guys test it.
Edit3: You're probably going to use that up-grapple-block trick, if so, use this one i posted. I managed to improve it by around 5 frames. It's probably possible to improve it a bit more.
smv
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Does anyone think that the new 100% run should use the old route (kraid before speedbooster), instead of the route used in CP's run (speedbooster before kraid)? For the purpose of ingame time, I am starting to think the old route may be faster. Time is lost by having to backtrack for the powerbomb in kraid's area later in the run, and time is also lost by not having speed booster in kraid's area. The obvious gain here is that there would be zero slow downs when getting the speed booster, wave beam, and on route to croco. There would be no time spent on the pipe bugs or on the reserve tank filling/unloading. Also getting the high jump after croco then becomes an option, and that too may save time.
I tried calculating just the time differences from Norfair Elevator (the spot in Brinstar) to Varia Suit and back (not counting Kraid), and then the backtrack to get the Power Bomb. I used JXQ's run and Cpadolf's and the in-game time difference is around 40 seconds. I'll try to calculate the differences again, but i think this number is pretty close. You would have to see now how much time Varia Suit can save on Norfair, but i think it would be pretty hard for it to save that much. So it seems that Kraid after Norfair is the way to go.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
40 in-game seconds? I got a much different number than that.
Measuring JXQ's run:
From norfair elevator to the crack in the ground in the powerbomb room in kraids area and back from the crack in the ground in the powerbomb room to the norfair elevaor, I got roughly 14.5 in-game seconds.
Then I would add roughly 4-5 seconds to that for not having the speed booster on the first entry in kraid's area.
A net difference of 20 in-game seconds.
---------------
I also tested the time it takes to get the powerbomb in red brinstar early, and that is a 15.5 second detour. The time lost from not having the speedbooster in kraid's area would be identical in either case. So the question is whether or not having the power bombs early can save the 1-2 seconds of time that is lost by going to red brinstar first.
Power bombs would save time in many areas:
The first room in kraid's area. Exiting and entering.
The spazer area may save a few frames with power bombs.
The green bubble room would be a really big timesaver.
Croco fight would benefit from having the PB combo to use on him.
High jump area would also benefit, though high jump boots may be collected after crocomire since we already have the varia suit.
Oh damn, yeah, i should have considered Kraid in both runs, it would make easier to compare.
JXQ took around 1min and 22sec to clean Kraid's area, counting the backtrack.
Cpadolf took around 1min and 1sec to clean Kraid's area.
So the difference is around 21sec.
I'm curious now to know if it's possible for the Varia Suit to save 21sec. When i read your post i thought if it was faster to go for Kraid first, it could be interesting to see if it was worth to collect the power bomb in Red Brinstar, like the realtime runs.
When you say the power bomb can save time on croco, do you mean a power wave combo?
Also, can you use the same strategy as in the current run to reach the grapple and the missile pack after the grapple without hi-jump boots? If not, you would have to collect the Hi-Jump before Speedbooster, then the power bomb would save some time there too.
Edit: Btw, don't know if you considered this, but when you collect the power bomb in Red Brinstar earlier, you loose a bit of time by not having the power bomb there already to destroy the wall.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
The getting of the high jump early or later will really need a lot of testing. You are correct that the entire grapple beam area will suffer without the high jump.
Getting the red brinstar PB pack has some pros and cons to consider:
- Getting the pack will be marginally slower without the speed booster
- Getting the pack will also be slower because you will not be able to blow away the back wall as early as normal, because you will not have the power bombs until you pick them up right then and there.
- The entire red binstar fall sequence can be put into this run using the charge beam and bomb spread, which will save some time.
As for croco, I was referring to using the PB wave combo on him, as seen in the obsoleted RBO run.
Overall I am pretty confident that getting the red brinstar pack early is the fastest of the 2 options. However I am still not sold that it is faster than doing norfair without the varia. Will stopping at the pipe bugs 3 times really eat up 15 seconds? I am definitely leaning towards doing Kraid early at this point. I want this run to show something that the other runs do not, and the current RBO run shows us the varialess norfair already.
Places that would benefit from having Varia/PB:
Spazer area bomb block (leaving)
Kraid's area bomb block (entering and leaving)
Hi-jump area bomb block
Lava rising room mockball
Bubble room missile pack delay (maybe it's faster to collect it after LN
No stop on the bugs pipe before speedbooster
No stop on the bugs pipe after speedboostet (for maybe 2 or 3 waves to reach wave beam)
Damage boost from the green bats going or wave beam
Damage boost from the sea horse like creature going for wave beam
Damage boostfrom the flyer right above the spikes after wave beam
Bubble room pb shortcut
No stop on the bugs pipe next to the blue gate
Power wave combo on crocomire
Earlier shinespark release after crocomire. No need to wait for his drops as you can probably refill when heading to WS
I honestly think that getting the hi-jump will be faster. Iirc you will loose time by not having it in most of the rooms in Norfair, mainly the wave beam area when returning and the grapple area.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Though there are some benefits of skipping the high jump too:
The first hot room in norfair can be completed without highjump boots using a very precise walljump. Even though this may be slower, the difference is probably negligible.
The second hot room in norfair should be much faster without the highjump boots. You can walljump off the first platform/rock formation and not hit the ceiling. This saves time because you can land all the way down to the missile pack without landing on any of the platforms above.
The room before the wave beam will also be much faster without the highjump, because you can clear the entire gap above the spikes without hitting the ceiling.
This same logic might save time in the green gate room when leaving norfair too.
It just seems to me that there's more rooms that will suffer without hi-jumps than rooms that will benefit from not having it.
Anyway, it's just a matter of tests.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I found a new timesaver that uses the wavebeam in maridia. Check it out
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/772176792/wave_new.smv
Now samus can jump directly up towards the missile pack instead of having to land on the lower edge and shoot upwards before jumping
I tried calculating the backtrack difference between the backtrack to collect the Red Brinstar Power Bomb and the Power Bomb in Kraid's area.
In regards of Red Brinstar, i didn't consider the Red Brinstar Elevator room and the Power Bomb room, as those areas (at least going down to the bottom) won't have to be visited again, i just have to add some frames in the calculation considering these room will be slower due to the fact you don't have speed booster or Power Bombs (i don't think Hi-Jumps will make any difference).
Using the CWJ from the door going up the Red Brinstar shaft up and then using the bombspread when going down, the backtrack was around 12 seconds. Let's consider that by not having Power Bomb and Speedbooster, the rooms i mentioned above will be in total around 2 seconds slower, then the backtrack is around 14 seconds.
I used JXQ's run to calculate the backtrack to Kraid's Power Bomb and it was around 20 seconds, but it's probably improvable, but i don't think it would be by much, probably less than 1 second. So let's say the backtrack is 19 seconds, so the difference is 5 seconds between both backtracks.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I also did some tests with what was not too hard to compare:
Not Refilling VS Refilling once Before SpeedBooster (Used Cpadolf's run VS Saturn's in-game time oriented run)
00:03:01
00:01:43
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00:01:18
--------------------------------------------------------------
Not Refilling VS Refilling Twice After SpeedBooster (Used Kriole's RBO run VS Saturn's in-game time oriented run)
00:04:48
00:01:33
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00:03:15
--------------------------------------------------------------
Refilling VS not Refilling Before Crocomire (Used Kriole's RBO run VS JXQ's run)
00:03:09
00:02:29
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00:00:40
--------------------------------------------------------------
Power Bomb Shortcut VS BombSpread (Used Saturn's GT Code run VS the Bombspread.smv)
00:09:42
00:06:01
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00:03:41
--------------------------------------------------------------
Hi-Jump Area Power Bomb VS Bomb (Used Cpadolf's run VS Kriole's RBO)
00:05:01
00:04:05
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00:00:56
---------------------------------------------------------------
Lava Rising Room Mockball VS Refilling (Used Cpadolf's Run VS Kriole's any% run)
00:06:54
00:05:37
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00:01:17
---------------------------------------------------------------
Power Wave Combo VS Missiles and Supers on Croc (Cpadolf's run VS Kriole's RBO)
00:19:90
00:19:49
--------
00:00:41
The total time saved by using the Early Power Bomb and the Varia Suit in the situation above is around 12 seconds. There's some more time to save but i'm not sure it's enough to justify going for Kraid before Norfair.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Thanks for breaking those figures down. I didn't see a calculation showing the difference of doing kraid without the speed booster, versus with the speed booster. Did you include this when you were doing your calculations.
Another big thing to consider is that the pipe bug visits seen in CP's run would be way way way shorter than the pipe bug visits in a new run (if collecting the wave beam). I figured the difference alone would be about 10 seconds. This makes the decision to do kraid first much easier.
here is some real food for thought!:
If we do red binstar PB pack early, a radical new route change can also come into play. We could do the maridia mainstreet room without the gravity suit on the way up to wrecked ship. This would look similar to the old RBO run, except after getting the mainstreet missile pack, you would go up and out the door in the big maridia room and then through the green gate to enter red brinstar. This route would eliminate the need to get the missile pack later in the run, which saves 5 seconds alone (going up and falling back down is a long process).
This route is actually very plausible, but again needs a solid demo in order to get the exact figure.
Speedbooster for Kraid is about 4 seconds faster (probably a little more?)
Every Pipebug refill after the first one is roughly a 100 frame delay, not counting the actual time it takes to get to the pipebugs.
Why would the new run take that much longer in the bugs pipe? Iirc Cpadolf said if you were lucky you could get away with 2 waves of bugs after Speedbooster and at most 3, which would add less than 80 frames in the 2 pipes refill strategy i posted, considering i used Kriole's RBO run, where he land a bomb and go down to kill the green bat, and so he doesn't collect the drops from the bugs in the first frame.
The new route idea is really cool. I just wonder if you'll have time to reach the right spot to release the shinespark to get the Missile Pack. Also, if it's possible, the possibility of destroying the tube earlier could be studied.
Regarding Kraid's area with and without speedbooster, i tried testing it using all in-game time strategies present in the latest runs, and the difference, with both collecting the the Power Bomb pack, is around 7seconds and 30 frames. I didn't consider that shinespark trick after Kraid cause we still don't know if it would be possible to charge the shinespark while the spikes are desapearing, so, if it's possible, the difference would be a bit higher, maybe 15 or 20 frames.
My calculations can be wrong, but i really think it's pretty close. The best way to know for sure would be going through Kraid's area with and without speedbooster.
Why would the new run take that much longer in the bugs pipe? Iirc Cpadolf said if you were lucky you could get away with 2 waves of bugs after Speedbooster and at most 3, which would add less than 80 frames in the 2 pipes refill strategy i posted, considering i used Kriole's RBO run, where he land a bomb and go down to kill the green bat, and so he doesn't collect the drops from the bugs in the first frame.
I think 2-3 waves was definitely a underestimation from me, because I think it's almost impossible to get 100 energy per wave if you're not filed up on everything else or under 30HP, and there's no way of manipulating luck between waves except for wasting frames which takes even more health. I wouldn't be surprised if it took 4-5, which would be 3-400 frames slower than my old run. Maybe I'll do a test of how many waves I can get away with, though such a test would obviously be a bit unreliable due to luck.
In that case, early Kraid seems better and better, mainly if that shortcut through maridia work.
Edit: Btw, after killing croc, isn't it possible to run at full speed, jump and morph in a way that samus bounce and reach the other side? Maybe bouncing from the second rung of the "ladder" would help Samus to make it to the other side.
