Thanks gunz, you've been pretty accommodating of my ideas and I appreciate that. If it seems like I'm suggesting the same thing, it's because I'm finding enough evidence to support it and not enough to debunk it. Like with the DC Mush timer, I was just told it was slower, so I tried to calculate it well and it looked faster, then I get more reasons for it being slower, take those into account, and find it's still faster, then Maxx shows why is just can't work, I say thanks for pointing that out, what a glaring flaw in my idea.
I don't want to hold onto ideas that can't work, just ones that haven't sufficiently been debunked, and I do this for any idea, regardless of it's origin.
So I'm keen on this idea of doing magic and then DC after getting warp songs. Could you warp to fire temple, get magic, trick to DC, beat king, warp to ToT? Because that would save time by warping out of DC instead of death/save warping, wouldn't have to go from DC to magic, or out to KV, warping to fire temple and then to magic might be faster than going to magic from GC.
And I had a idea for the pressure jump, could you set up 2 bombs and do a forward mega-flip to catch the ladder off the second bomb?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
The only warp songs you get from Saw RBA are Prelude, Nocturne, and Serenade (as well as Lullaby). Bolero and Minuet are on a different byte (along with the medallions), and have values too high to RBA anyway.
After KD, I think Serenade is the best bet. You can megaflip into the water below and hess all the way to the fishing pond, hover up using bombs + tektites, steal the rod, then slide out of LH to Gerudo Valley. LH to GV is a little faster than ToT to GV, but only by a couple seconds and costs extra bombs (and ends up being slower if you don't hess out of LH correctly), which is why console players don't typically do it. You have to steal the rod again at some point after KD before LACS, so it probably makes sense to do it along the way to Gerudo.
The only warp songs you get from Saw RBA are Prelude, Nocturne, and Serenade (as well as Lullaby). Bolero and Minuet are on a different byte (along with the medallions), and have values too high to RBA anyway.
After KD, I think Serenade is the best bet. You can megaflip into the water below and hess all the way to the fishing pond, hover up using bombs + tektites, steal the rod, then slide out of LH to Gerudo Valley. LH to GV is a little faster than ToT to GV, but only by a couple seconds and costs extra bombs (and ends up being slower if you don't hess out of LH correctly), which is why console players don't typically do it. You have to steal the rod again at some point after KD before LACS, so it probably makes sense to do it along the way to Gerudo.
Ahh, that's too bad you don't get that song. Would the stick on B route be the same, but not steal the rod when at LH the second time?
Also, the TAS needs to consider getting the nuts, I think manipulating 2 tree nuts would potentially be faster, it takes about 9s to buy nuts in the shop, and 3s to grab second bug, and 4s to sell bug; also about 3.5s to throw 7 nuts which I'm not sure if you could do while waiting on egg to hatch, or maybe egg hatches in time anyway. Either way, it's about 16s to buy nuts, where as collecting from trees near the route with an extra SS thrown in should be less than 16s, the cut scene for getting nuts is shorter this way.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Also, the TAS needs to consider getting the nuts, I think manipulating 2 tree nuts would potentially be faster, it takes about 9s to buy nuts in the shop, and 3s to grab second bug, and 4s to sell bug; also about 3.5s to throw 7 nuts which I'm not sure if you could do while waiting on egg to hatch, or maybe egg hatches in time anyway. Either way, it's about 16s to buy nuts, where as collecting from trees near the route with an extra SS thrown in should be less than 16s, the cut scene for getting nuts is shorter this way.
Isn't the cutscene "you got nuts, and they can be equipped with C" no matter what? If throwing the 7 nuts takes less time than 2 pause screen equipment changes, no point in doing it while waiting for egg to hatch, right?
The cut scene is shorter for picking them up that way though, and I'm not sure if the daylight timer is counting during it. If the time to equip is the same throwing 7, then it's neutral you need to wait on night still, but it might be faster. I don't know if you could equip the egg during this time as well, and not have to equip it after it hatches?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
that "do it during waiting for the egg to hatch" is one of the things some people are annoyed of, spider-waffle. You've been told to watch Bloobiebla's run several times and if you had done so, you'd know that the egg hatches before arriving at Kakariko, so there's no "waiting for the egg to hatch".
Are we sure, that nuts drop from trees without having nuts? If not, the best time to buy them is definitely as child at the shop in the market. We buy the Hylian Shield at this time and we can simply buy some nuts as well.
And yes, 95 rupees can be collected very easily. there are 60 rupees at the bridge, 20 rupees in the kakariko grotto and the rest can be obtained while swimming down Zora's River.
Are we sure, that nuts drop from trees without having nuts?
Yes. In ZFG's RTS (as of a week ago, I don't know if the route has changed), he has time to kill running around hyrule field after stick on b as adult and waiting for the egg to hatch, so he tries to roll into trees for nuts to avoid getting them at the store (which he needs to go to anyway for shield and stick, I think), and he does get the them sometimes.
Well those were things which I adamantly supported in the face of violent opposition via telling me I was wrong or it was impossible or was slower with false or no reasoning; which were later proved to work and be better. Had people listened to me more opened-minded sooner they could have been found even sooner, that was all I was trying to convey.
Let me guess how that went:
You: "I know that the door of time skip is possible, I know it, try it, try it try it!!!!!!!!!!!111one"
Everybody else: "It's not possible as far is we know. If you can come up with a plausible idea, come back."
You: "But I know it's possible, I just know it, why won't anybody listen to me?!!!!111"
Somebody quite some time later: "Oh hey I had this new idea for a door of time skip and what do you know it actually worked."
You: "Seeee I told you it was possible, if you just had listened to me we could have had this years ago, even though I had no idea on how to actually accomplish this skip!!!!!111 Aren't you glad you finally listened to ME?! Even though nobody made any indication that I was in any way responsible for the idea or the fact that they tried it again, I'm so going to take credit for this!!!111 It was obviously all about ME!!!2"
Also I'm pretty sure that nobody ever told you that hover up to mirror shield wasn't faster. It clearly is. I'm pretty sure they told you that it wasn't feasable that late in an RTA. That's the problem here. You don't listen. You don't understand the difference between impossible and impractical.
Ofcourse as cosmo became extremely good at MST, after one year of practice, he started using the hover up there. Don't be fooled into thinking that that had anything to do with you.
And again, you seem mad and I can't see how it's justified, using profanity and telling to me see a psychologist and that I have a disorder. This is not called for on this forum, and I did nothing to warrant this.
That word doesn't mean what you think it means. Kind of sad when a german has to correct your english...
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Also, the TAS needs to consider getting the nuts, I think manipulating 2 tree nuts would potentially be faster, it takes about 9s to buy nuts in the shop, and 3s to grab second bug, and 4s to sell bug; also about 3.5s to throw 7 nuts which I'm not sure if you could do while waiting on egg to hatch, or maybe egg hatches in time anyway. Either way, it's about 16s to buy nuts, where as collecting from trees near the route with an extra SS thrown in should be less than 16s, the cut scene for getting nuts is shorter this way.
See you actually can come up with ideas that aren't stupid, if you try.
We don't have to wait for the egg to hatch, but we slide from a poe that is pretty close to the nut trees. If it's possible to manipulate drops quickly this should be faster than buying them.
Edit: I wasn't sure if the tree drops were set when you enter HF. They are not, which means they are truely random (just really scarse), which means TAS will at least be able to get one drop from one tree. Still not sure if one tree will give you multiple drops though.
I'm still mad that I wasn't the reason for the last one to be locked. ;P
Well at least this time we stay on topic while being unfriendly to each other.
Edit:
I rolled like a quadrillion times against one tree. Seems like every tree will only give you one drop. So the best strategy is probably to get one drop and RBA the rest. I don't think going to 3 different trees is the way to go. Not 100% sure though.
I know I probably sound stupid asking this, but what exactly does a Deku Nut do when thrown during RBA? Is it just another item that manipulates memory, like bugs in a bottle?
I know I probably sound stupid asking this, but what exactly does a Deku Nut do when thrown during RBA? Is it just another item that manipulates memory, like bugs in a bottle?
http://zeldaspeedruns.com/oot/ba/bottle-adventure
See item amount BA. It allows you to set your B item after using BA based on the amount of the item you have.
In this case, you need a fish on B to point to the deku nuts. Farore's wind is item 13, so you'll need 13 deku nuts when starting the LA cs to get it.
Let me guess how that went:
You: "I know that the door of time skip is possible, I know it, try it, try it try it!!!!!!!!!!!111one"
Everybody else: "It's not possible as far is we know. If you can come up with a plausible idea, come back."
You: "But I know it's possible, I just know it, why won't anybody listen to me?!!!!111"
Somebody quite some time later: "Oh hey I had this new idea for a door of time skip and what do you know it actually worked."
You: "Seeee I told you it was possible, if you just had listened to me we could have had this years ago, even though I had no idea on how to actually accomplish this skip!!!!!111 Aren't you glad you finally listened to ME?! Even though nobody made any indication that I was in any way responsible for the idea or the fact that they tried it again, I'm so going to take credit for this!!!111 It was obviously all about ME!!!2"
Not quite, Comicalflop said he tried and it was immpossible and it should never be mentioned here again and it was a waste of time to to talk about it. I said if people tried hard enough there would likely be a way found and there was documented on what people tried. It has nothing to do with me being right and comicalflop being wrong, it's about attitudes that help the community find faster strats and ones that don't.
Slowking wrote:
Also I'm pretty sure that nobody ever told you that hover up to mirror shield wasn't faster. It clearly is. I'm pretty sure they told you that it wasn't feasable that late in an RTA. That's the problem here. You don't listen. You don't understand the difference between impossible and impractical.
Ofcourse as cosmo became extremely good at MST, after one year of practice, he started using the hover up there. Don't be fooled into thinking that that had anything to do with you.
Actually they did say it was clearly slower, and that hovering took "forever" they didn't know how many hovers it would be, they just said it would be too many and take too long, being too difficult was never the reasoning. I calculated the time showed it'd be faster even if you used 50 hovers, but they just had bad attitudes. Whether or not Cosmo finally showing it was faster had anything to do with what I said over a year ago, is not the point. It's that I had the right idea long ago and people were too closed minded to listen and check it seriously. I'm not trying to get credit for something, I'm trying to show that I have good ideas and people should listen me more seriously and open minded.
And again, you seem mad and I can't see how it's justified, using profanity and telling to me see a psychologist and that I have a disorder. This is not called for on this forum, and I did nothing to warrant this.
Slowking wrote:
That word doesn't mean what you think it means. Kind of sad when a german has to correct your english...
well here's your quote: Slowking wrote:
go the fuck away.
I don't know what you think profanity means... But continuing to use it and slander contributing members of this community and breaking forums will get you banned. I suppose we could do without your attitude as well, it's not helping anything.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Spider-waffle, last time I attempted to politely suggest your posts were excessive and less than helpful at times, I was tactfully told to "stop stirring shit up." At this point, though, it seems like the stirring's been done by you and Slowking.
I don't understand why you can't show some level of respect to someone who is your senior as a Zelda TASer. My understanding is you don't seriously TAS or speedrun this game. I apologize if I am mistaken but if I am correct it does seem quite rude of you to continually justify your position based on what are effectively no credentials. Yes, perhaps you once or twice have suggested ideas that were ultimately correct, but as the saying goes, "even a broken clock is right twice a day."
Slowking is a talented TASer and he obviously wants to continue improving on this game. I don't necessarily condone his expression of frustration here, but I certainly understand it. Your posts are like the incessant nudgings of a child... "try this!" "try that!" You may be right occasionally but that doesn't justify your persistence in suggesting things in such sheer quantity.
I wouldn't mind at all that you do so, but you continue to act as though you're blameless. Most recently, you clearly were not watching Bloobie's run, as the suggestions you made would have been obviously in error if you had. Nevertheless you ignored the suggestions from the TASers here and kept insisting on ideas that were clearly flawed (even to me as a novice OoT speedrunner). Some modification of your posting habits would be greatly appreciated--at the very least, attempt as best you can to fact-check your ideas against existing runs before posting about them, given how often you suggest things that clearly just will not work. If you did this, people would take your posts more seriously and show you a higher level of respect.
I don't know if a moderator will eventually be by to delete all this mess. I would like if they did--but maybe the thread will just get locked instead. Guess we'll see. This should have all been said in PMs anyway.
Nobody hates you, but you are most definitely at times a source of annoyance. If Slowking is being offensive it's because he's frustrated that you just don't seem to get it, and being nice hasn't helped. Perhaps you should reflect upon the point several of us have tried to make.
I know fact checking helps and I've already said I do my best. I've never told people to "try this" as you say. It's more of me suggesting ideas and some people trying to debunk them, I check on their debunking and find the idea the still stands and post that. I don't know what else you expect of me. For the last idea about DC on mush timer, if that's what's you're referring to, I did watch blobledia's TAS many times, that wasn't the problem, it doesn't proove any route is clearly faster like mrgrunz said as it only does one route, I did a time check and found it to be faster. mrgrunz gave more reason for it be slower, I checked them and adjusted calcs and it was still faster. I don't know what's wrong with? It wasn't until Maxx pointed out how it couldn't work, which had nothing to do with fact checking and other TASes and was something everyone else had overlooked. I overlooked it too, which why posted here so it could get critiqued, as it's easy to overlook something like everyone but maxx did in this case. I don't know what you want you me adjust about that, I'm not perfect, I'm sorry, that's why it's an idea and not an order to do something. You can take idea how you want, but if you falsely debunk you should expect that to get checked on. I don't think got your facts straight before posting, I suggest you do more of that as this is the second time now.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I'm not looking for an argument or to further derail this thread. You aren't grasping what I'm trying to say so let's just move on and try to stay on topic.
I have yet to see this.
Im with Spider Waffle here. Slowkings attitude is just not right. This is not the first time I notice him flouting people who have not the knowledge he has. I remember his claims that a Wind Waker TAS would just be impossible whilst it is being worked on right now (and don't get me started on the whole J ROM debate. It doesnt matter what side youre on as long as you calmly present your opinions in a respectful order, which he rarely did).
I dont want to get in the Zelda Pros faces. Mr. Grunz for example has a real nice attitude while dealing with people who talk about impossible suggestions. This is not a problem with the ZSR community. This is just a problem with Slowking I have been noticing and Im sure Im not alone with that opinion.
He really isnt helping thje progress for any run around here, as far I know.
If, however, Im wrong about that and people can show me exactly WHY I#m wrong I would be glad if you could point me in the right direction.
I remember his claims that a Wind Waker TAS would just be impossible whilst it is being worked on right now
To be fair, at the time it was not known just how well dolphin syncs after the save state fixes. Two weeks before he said that, it would have been silly to even consider tasing a 4+ hour 3d game. But now? It's barely worth the time to check for desyncs.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Not quite, Comicalflop said he tried and it was immpossible and it should never be mentioned here again and it was a waste of time to to talk about it. I said if people tried hard enough there would likely be a way found and there was documented on what people tried. It has nothing to do with me being right and comicalflop being wrong, it's about attitudes that help the community find faster strats and ones that don't.
I'd like to point out that at the time, I was testing it and I was able to in fact get the right angle to jump out of bounds past the door of time. The problem was that at that one angle, I couldn't jumplslash back into the door. It wasn't until people used the rolling and camera-angle shifting trick that they found they could sidehop through the gap at a better angle. So I guess in my defense I had tested within the parameters of what was currently known, but it took the ingenuity of others to find alternate methods to make it work.
I have yet to see this.
Im with Spider Waffle here. Slowkings attitude is just not right. This is not the first time I notice him flouting people who have not the knowledge he has. I remember his claims that a Wind Waker TAS would just be impossible whilst it is being worked on right now (and don't get me started on the whole J ROM debate. It doesnt matter what side youre on as long as you calmly present your opinions in a respectful order, which he rarely did).
I dont want to get in the Zelda Pros faces. Mr. Grunz for example has a real nice attitude while dealing with people who talk about impossible suggestions. This is not a problem with the ZSR community. This is just a problem with Slowking I have been noticing and Im sure Im not alone with that opinion.
He really isnt helping thje progress for any run around here, as far I know.
If, however, Im wrong about that and people can show me exactly WHY I#m wrong I would be glad if you could point me in the right direction.
Slowking is no TASer, but I still talk a lot with him. We planned the Majora's Mask route and the All Temples TAS route of Swordless Link's TAS together, so apart from the people who TASed the game, he contributed probably most to those 2 TASes.
But I'm still on your side when it comes to the insulting. No matter how annoyed you are about anybody, you should always try to keep calm and especially when we are discussing something you should write in a factual style. This should actually be way easier on the internet than in real life, because usually you don't post here in the heat of the moment ;)
So here some updates on the route planning:
First off Slowking and I came up with a route using Stick on B, which chould have easily been able to beat the traditional route, which uses the Light Arrow CS to BA. One problem appeared, though: We planned to go directly to Kakariko after escaping the forest and get bombchus there. Afterwards we wanted to go Hyrule Castle and get Lullaby. As ingame time also progress during Intro Cutscenes of most areas, which is the case for the Outside Hyrule Castle CS, we cannot arrive at the castle before it gets night.
Avoiding this by changing the route completely costs probably too much time and makes the whole concept of beating Forest Temple to do BA slower. And like I said already, I won't TAS a route using Deku Stick on B when it is slower than the traditional route. Despite the fact it would be super entertaining, the controversies it would cause are way too big to make it worth doing, although it is slower.
So here we are back at traditional route, which is very similar to the route Bloobiebla used in his Any% TAS published on this site.
There's no question on how the Adult route will be done. The whole trading quest will be done the same way and Dodongo's Cavern will be done after magic. We will equip thr Master Sword over Bottle on B again to be able to kill King Dodongo.
After that we warp to Lake Hylia, where we steal the rod once again, and then head to Gerudo Valley to finish the RBA sequence. Watching the Master Sword cutscene afterwards with Bottle on B and 13 Deku Nuts will give us Farore's Wind on B.
It is still not clear how we are going to do the Child Section, though. Just to make it clear before hand, up until leaving Kokiri Forest buying the Deku Stick instead of obtaining the Kokiri Sword is 29 seconds quicker. This is no estimation, I TASed both routes.
How the Child route will be done in the end depends mainly on how we get Deku Nuts. But let's look at another thing at first: Is there really no item than Deku Nuts we could use to BA?
Here's a list of linked items:
Fairy - Deku Sticks
Full Milk - Bombs
Poe - Bombchus
Fish - Deku Nuts
Ruto's Letter - Arrows
Big Poe - Deku Seeds
Looking at this list, Deku Nuts is really the only thing we can easily get. Deku Nuts is linked to Fish and the only nice place to get a fish from is the grotto in Kakariko. The only time we get close to the grotto is when we trade the Odd Mushroom for the Odd Potion. In order to RBA the fish, we have to put it on to c-right and afterwards switch trading items back to c-right again. The goal would be to have the 20 Deku Nuts before fighting King Dodongo, because we can easily waste 7 nuts during the battle without loosing time. Thus RBAing Nuts would be done right before RBAing Poacher's Saw, which would add 2 pauses. Each pause takes 3 seconds, so alltogether we'd lose 6 seconds by RBAing them.
To answer the question whether RBAing them or getting 3 drops is quicker, I have to know from which trees you can get the nuts and if you can get more than 1 drop from each tree. I hope someone can help me on this.
Because getting the first drop from a tree is way quicker than collecting extra rupees and buying them as child, the Kokiri Sword has no advantage anymore when it comes to collecting the extra 15 rupees as child, which it had before.
This means getting just 1 Deku Stick instead of the Kokiri Sword is way quicker, because the sword can't save 29 seconds by doing slides and slashing cuccos.
Now that it is also clear, that we get Deku Stick as child, there are really only 2 questions left:
- Like I said before, we don't know whether RBAing Deku Nuts or getting 2 extra drops from trees is faster (important note: you must have Deku Nuts in your inventory to be able to RBA them)
- We need 80 rupees to buy the Hylian Shield as child, so what is the best place to get them from? There are 60 rupees at the Market bridge (only 40 can be obtained by one jump), 20 in the grotto in Kakariko, 5 on the way too Lost Woods and 13-18 in Zora's River depending on the route you choose. Thinking about it, getting 5 in Lost Woods (costs 0 frames), 15 in Zora's River (should only cost very minor frames compared to the fastest route through the river) and either 60 from the bridge or 20 from the grotto and 40 from the bridge. All in all whether bridge twice or getting the grotto chest is quicker is the last other thing which has to be timed.
If you notice anything that could be done faster than what I said be free to tell me ;)
SpiderWaffle that one word can be seen as profanity, but it wasn't directed at you and that should be obvious. It was a general expression of frustration. I could show you how profanity directed at you would look like, but I'd rather not.
Considering how annoying you can get, I'm not surprised that at some point poeple did tell you "no this is not possible, it never will, go away", even though it might not be strictly true. You do have a talent for driving people there.
@Everyone else
How is it that when you tell the truth it's insulting? His ideas are stupid, moronic even. He does not do any research before formulating them, that is apperent.
Even his nut idea was a lucky shot. That it came close to be being right, that is. All his assumptions were wrong. He thought we would have to wait for the cucco to hatch, which we are not, and he thought the tree drop 10 nuts at a time, which they do not, they drop 5. The latter he could have easily tested in like 2 minutes.
Also him thinking he had a hand in any of those things he listed atests to a pretty huge amount of narcisim. I think it's enough to warrent treatment, since he seems to genuinently believe it. He even believes he is "a contributing member of this community".
I'm dishing out facts, not insults. I may be blunt, but it's the truth.
PS: I'm not a TASer. But if a TASer tells me something is not possible I don't bug them endlessly about it. I accept it.
Phallosvogel wrote:
Im with Spider Waffle here. Slowkings attitude is just not right. This is not the first time I notice him flouting people who have not the knowledge he has. I remember his claims that a Wind Waker TAS would just be impossible whilst it is being worked on right now
I never said it was impossible. I said nobody would be insane enough to take on a TAS that long on an emulator that wasn't totally stable. Maybe you should actually read what I say instead of taking it as an offence by default, just because I don't sugar coat things.
Dolphin has made quite a few strides since then. (even though it was more stable than I thought at the time, that I have to admit)
I still don't see this run being finished, but I would like to be proven wrong here.
@Everyone else
How is it that when you tell the truth it's insulting? His ideas are stupid, moronic even.
Thats the whole point. Even if somebody has ideas that are unfeasible because he lacks the knowledge and would like to see some proof, depsite hearing "Its not possible, go away" all the time, you have no right to call his ideas stupid or moronic. Thats just ignorant and shows quite a lack of manners.
