So everybody who refuses to be happy for no good reason has split personalities and is clinically depressed? I see, that convinces me I should be taking more drugs, watching more TV shows and playing more video games indeed. Let's all enjoy this glory and happiness that Western civilization has brought upon us! We don't know our neighbours but can effortlessly name tons of little ponies, video game characters and superstars. Also watch more porn, who cares about developing healthy sexual relationships with real people? Let's all just be happy, as that's definitely our sole purpose in life, and not worry so much about reality! If believing something makes you happy, it's totally ok as well! Let's not try to get to know our partners really deep down inside, how about just taking a shortcut instead and pretend they're perfect, pretend to be really in love just because it feels good, then filing a divorce a few years later? Who cares about reality, our top priority by far is to become happy, no matter the cause, right? I might have overstated my point, but calling me insane is overstating the opposite point as well, and it's furthermore and ad hominem and possibly psychological projection.
Excessive happiness for no good reason limits our freedom of choice, I believe it should be reserved only for meaningful activities. You can become just as happy that way, it just might be harder to achieve than through mindless self-indulgence. Would you have deliberately chosen to watch all MLP episodes for a good reason, or have you been coerced to it? Haven't you tried it because there might be something to it, enjoyed being distracted from real life, watched further episodes because you've started to care for the characters, watched more episodes and claimed you liked the show in an effort to provide a coherent frame for your actions? ("Well, I have watched 5 episodes now, so I might as well watch the rest and admit I like it before admitting I've watched these 5 episodes for no good reason") None of this? Does that seem such an absurd idea?
It is easy and natural to rationalize our irrational actions afterwards, again providing a coherent frame for our actions. A girl sleeping with a guy for no good reason, then concluding it means she must like him, there must be something to him, maintaining a relationship for a while, so she doesn't seem like a slut to herself in her mind. It's pretty easy and natural for her to make up reasons for why she'd like him after the fact. I see MLP fandom in a similar way. What are good reasons for starting to watch the show, besides just giving it a try or it being fun (I don't consider either of them to be good reasons btw)?
Honestly, your views on pleasure for the sake of pleasure are well in line with my own. Your little rant reminds me of a term I've come up with: The Autofellating Society. We seem to be drifting toward a civilization that values pleasure but shirks responsibility. However, My Little Pony is so incredibly far down the list of things to be concerned about that it is hardly worth mentioning.
I hardly play video games anymore, nor do I drink, smoke, or do drugs (not even once, with the exception of an occasional single drink on my birthday). The difference between you and me is that I don't go posting my views in tangential rants in forum topics on TV shows that are of the least concern to society's ills. My addiction to sugar and other non-nutritious foods is of vastly greater concern to me than my enjoyment of My Little Pony.
If more people were like us (seeking pleasure in accomplishment, not vices), I'm convinced the world would be a better place. Yet the means to reach that end are not to piss all over everyone's parade at every turn. There are appropriate times and places to express your feelings, but this is not one of them.
Any brony will be happy to tell you that they are drawn to the show by its expressive animation, solid writing, realistic and flawed characters, outstanding and infectious music, varied plots, and otherwise impressive quality and craftsmanship. You asked why someone should watch the show and those are my reasons. Like any good brony (and there are inconsiderate bronies out there), I will not proselytize needlessly to people who simply aren't interested. I stated my case, but you sound like you aren't the least bit interested from the outset. I therefore don't expect you to watch the show, nor will I take offense. This show isn't for everyone. If you like it, we'll all be happy to incorporate you into the discussion. Otherwise, it would probably be best for all of us if you were to seek a less tolerant fanbase to state your complaints to.
Edit: P.S.-- Have you read Brave New World, by any chance? I found it to be poorly written, but it did cover some very interesting themes that are related to my above response.
Honestly, your views on pleasure for the sake of pleasure are well in line with my own. Your little rant reminds me of a term I've come up with: The Autofellating Society. We seem to be drifting toward a civilization that values pleasure but shirks responsibility. However, My Little Pony is so incredibly far down the list of things to be concerned about that it is hardly worth mentioning.
Oh, I totally agree. Much of what I've written goes under the umbrella of arguing for the sake of arguing, and I think I've very openly stated that already. Nevertheless, I think it's a perfectly valid position to take, just that it might be inappropriate in that it's overstating a point.
Bobo the King wrote:
I hardly play video games anymore, nor do I drink, smoke, or do drugs (not even once, with the exception of an occasional single drink on my birthday). The difference between you and me is that I don't go posting my views in tangential rants in forum topics on TV shows that are of the least concern to society's ills. My addiction to sugar and other non-nutritious foods is of vastly greater concern to me than my enjoyment of My Little Pony.
I agree, there is much other stuff that's more important to worry about, but it disturbs me if people stop reflecting upon their acts, just because something feels good and because lots of others are doing it as well. By attacking something that seems largely harmless I can at least alienate them, which might lead them to reevaluate some of their views somewhen. Raising awereness. Or they might just call me a nutjob, which is fine too, I guess.
Bobo the King wrote:
If more people were like us (seeking pleasure in accomplishment, not vices), I'm convinced the world would be a better place. Yet the means to reach that end are not to piss all over everyone's parade at every turn. There are appropriate times and places to express your feelings, but this is not one of them.
A better place in the long run, yea. Oh, I don't think I'm doing it at every turn, I've just taken the opportunity now. I've felt the debate prior to it already went towards arguing for the sake of arguing. Anyway, I think I've stated my point and I'm done for now, I don't intend to spam this thread. It's all good.
Bobo the King wrote:
Edit: P.S.-- Have you read Brave New World, by any chance? I found it to be poorly written, but it did cover some very interesting themes that are related to my above response.
So everybody who refuses to be happy for no good reason has split personalities and is clinically depressed? I see, that convinces me I should be taking more drugs, watching more TV shows and playing more video games indeed. Let's all enjoy this glory and happiness that Western civilization has brought upon us!
Keep in mind that you're posting this in a thread about My Little Pony, on a site dedicated to video games. Why???
But anyway, your philosophy mostly makes sense... except that it seems as though you have not yet learned about the concept of "stress".
"Stress" is a very real thing, it is not just a figure of speech. It is a cycle of chemical reactions which happen in the body that prepare it for imminent danger: the fight-or-flight response. It can happen instantaneously ("OMG, that car is going to hit me! DIVE OUT OF THE WAY!"), but it can also have a prolonged effect ("Ugh, I think my boss is going to fire me but I don't know when" / "Ugh, my term paper is due in a week and I haven't started on it yet").
While the short-term stress can be a useful survival instinct, the long-term sort is almost completely obsolete in our day and age, and can be very harmful to your health, since it takes energy away from things like your immune system to power your sense of focus, reflex, and all the facilities your body has that are programmed to save your life at a moment's notice. Prolonged stress can cause innumerable health problems such as ulcers, insomnia, depression, and heart attacks. Prolonged periods of high-level stress are also proven to chop years off the end of your life.
If you cannot identify the stress reaction in your own life, you have not done enough meta-cognition. Keep up your journey and you will make new discoveries.
Anyway, the human body requires catharsis for its stress levels on a regular basis, just as much as it requires food, sleep, and comfort from pain. This means that pleasure for its own sake is, in fact, biologically justified! Fancy that! This is why we have things like ponies and video games to make us smile every once in a while, release the stress and forget about all those everyday things which "threaten" us physically and emotionally. And it helps when the entertainment is wholesome like ponies, rather than degenerate, like, say, most pop music out right now.
Can you get addicted to catharsis? Certainly. But remember, as one of my favorite quotes goes, "Most human beings are addicted to food", which is completely true. An addiction in and of itself is not a bad thing, letting it get out of hand is what's bad. Overeating may be bad, but starvation is also bad. You've no choice but to accept the addiction and learn to control it.
Likewise, there's no reason to completely remove happiness from your life. In fact, if you do, you are doing your body and mind an immense disservice, and you aren't impressing anybody. Show some skill and learn how to balance work and pleasure, rather than just condemning everyone who likes to laugh at an innocent, colorful cartoon.
So everybody who refuses to be happy for no good reason has split personalities and is clinically depressed? I see, that convinces me I should be taking more drugs, watching more TV shows and playing more video games indeed. Let's all enjoy this glory and happiness that Western civilization has brought upon us!
Keep in mind that you're posting this in a thread about My Little Pony, on a site dedicated to video games. Why???
But anyway, your philosophy mostly makes sense... except that it seems as though you have not yet learned about the concept of "stress".
"Stress" is a very real thing, it is not just a figure of speech. It is a cycle of chemical reactions which happen in the body that prepare it for imminent danger: the fight-or-flight response. It can happen instantaneously ("OMG, that car is going to hit me! DIVE OUT OF THE WAY!"), but it can also have a prolonged effect ("Ugh, I think my boss is going to fire me but I don't know when" / "Ugh, my term paper is due in a week and I haven't started on it yet").
While the short-term stress can be a useful survival instinct, the long-term sort is almost completely obsolete in our day and age, and can be very harmful to your health, since it takes energy away from things like your immune system to power your sense of focus, reflex, and all the facilities your body has that are programmed to save your life at a moment's notice. Prolonged stress can cause innumerable health problems such as ulcers, insomnia, depression, and heart attacks. Prolonged periods of high-level stress are also proven to chop years off the end of your life.
If you cannot identify the stress reaction in your own life, you have not done enough meta-cognition. Keep up your journey and you will make new discoveries.
Anyway, the human body requires catharsis for its stress levels on a regular basis, just as much as it requires food, sleep, and comfort from pain. This means that pleasure for its own sake is, in fact, biologically justified! Fancy that! This is why we have things like ponies and video games to make us smile every once in a while, release the stress and forget about all those everyday things which "threaten" us physically and emotionally. And it helps when the entertainment is wholesome like ponies, rather than degenerate, like, say, most pop music out right now.
Can you get addicted to catharsis? Certainly. But remember, as one of my favorite quotes goes, "Most human beings are addicted to food", which is completely true. An addiction in and of itself is not a bad thing, letting it get out of hand is what's bad. Overeating may be bad, but starvation is also bad. You've no choice but to accept the addiction and learn to control it.
Likewise, there's no reason to completely remove happiness from your life. In fact, if you do, you are doing your body and mind an immense disservice, and you aren't impressing anybody. Show some skill and learn how to balance work and pleasure, rather than just condemning everyone who likes to laugh at an innocent, colorful cartoon.
In Kuwaga's defense (because our views are similar and I don't want this thread to devolve into bronies vs. Kuwaga), to an outside observer, bronies do seem to take their fanaticism to an unhealthy level. Compare BroNYCon to a Star Trek convention. Look at the deluge of fanfics. Consider the existence of clopping. Examine the (usually techno) music and (often kitschy) art that's output. Most of these things are either dominated by a few extremists within the community, or just contributed by so many people that the aggregate seems overwhelming.
We are a pretty obsessive and inward-oriented community. Bronies have infected every corner of the internet, often to the detriment of our image. We should be concerned about these things and take them seriously. The only problem is that Kuwaga has specifically chosen the TASVideos MLP topic as his platform, and I don't think that any of us takes our enjoyment of the show too far.
As for stress, I don't think anyone necessarily has to turn to popular forms of entertainment to relieve their stress. Physics and mathematics can be quite relaxing for me. There are also creative outlets-- such as painting, woodworking, and songwriting-- that can be stress-relievers. It is only through reinforcement that we come to believe that combating stress requires a passive role.
And the bottom line: there's shit out there that needs to get done. By turning increasingly inward, the fabric of society continues to slowly decay, reinforcing the need to find trivial pleasures. If it's stressful work, sure, it might take a few years off one's life expectancy, but it is nevertheless a good investment in the social environment and infrastructure for years to come.
As Ferret Warlord already mentioned, MLP fandom is way more about the excitement of proudly proclaiming oneself a "Brony" and all that it entails than it is the actual quality of the show.
The series itself is good by the standards of a children's animated show, and strictly average (at best) by the standards of a normal adult-oriented show. But even by the most generous standards or wildest stretches of one's imagination, it's not remotely good enough to generate such intense fandom....if the fandom itself weren't so damn fun!
So yeah, it's one of those weird shows/movies/books where the fandom part is way more interesting/attractive than the actual work that spawned it. Oddly enough, it reminds me of Star Trek, although The Wrath of Khan is a hundred times better than anything MLP-related. And not even Trekkies are as annoying as Bronies...
As for stress, I don't think anyone necessarily has to turn to popular forms of entertainment to relieve their stress. Physics and mathematics can be quite relaxing for me. There are also creative outlets-- such as painting, woodworking, and songwriting-- that can be stress-relievers. It is only through reinforcement that we come to believe that combating stress requires a passive role.
I do a lot of music creation and writing in my spare time, and I consider it stress relief (although it can be highly stressful sometimes for technical reasons). However, in doing so, I am creating a product which is meant to be passively consumed by someone else. Do you believe that art should be created as stress relief, but not passively enjoyed by an audience?
Also, consider the fact that if I did not personally listen to music, read books, or watch movies, I would have no inspiration, no mental material with which to create this stuff. You cannot make something out of nothing. Inspiration is created by combining existing ideas in new ways, not by pulling something out of nothing. So perhaps art is, in and of itself, harmful to society completely? Or perhaps it should only be created for the sake of the artist, and not for the audience?
We are a pretty obsessive and inward-oriented community. Bronies have infected every corner of the internet, often to the detriment of our image. We should be concerned about these things and take them seriously.
I'm pretty sure that I can name about ten other fandoms that are larger and have committed more of these sins than Bronies ever have. In fact, I remember the good old days where adults never wanted to admit that they liked Pokemon. I guess MLP has overtaken the role of "embarrassing but trendy guilty pleasure". Point is, people will be people, and fandoms will always be crazy if they get too large. Don't let that ruin the reputations of the respectable fans.
As Ferret Warlord already mentioned, MLP fandom is way more about the excitement of proudly proclaiming oneself a "Brony" and all that it entails than it is the actual quality of the show.
The series itself is good by the standards of a children's animated show, and strictly average (at best) by the standards of a normal adult-oriented show. But even by the most generous standards or wildest stretches of one's imagination, it's not remotely good enough to generate such intense fandom....if the fandom itself weren't so damn fun!
So yeah, it's one of those weird shows/movies/books where the fandom part is way more interesting/attractive than the actual work that spawned it. Oddly enough, it reminds me of Star Trek, although The Wrath of Khan is a hundred times better than anything MLP-related. And not even Trekkies are as annoying as Bronies...
To a limited extent, you're right, but I strongly disagree with your second paragraph. We live in a time with outstanding adults-oriented entertainment... if you like dramas and reality TV. For the rest of us, who want something more carefree, MLP is perhaps the best show out there. I think that its comparisons to '90s cartoons are a stretch at best, but it's a wonderful show in its own right.
And as with Trekkies, don't let the most socially inept of the community sour your opinion of the rest.
As for stress, I don't think anyone necessarily has to turn to popular forms of entertainment to relieve their stress. Physics and mathematics can be quite relaxing for me. There are also creative outlets-- such as painting, woodworking, and songwriting-- that can be stress-relievers. It is only through reinforcement that we come to believe that combating stress requires a passive role.
I do a lot of music creation and writing in my spare time, and I consider it stress relief (although it can be highly stressful sometimes for technical reasons). However, in doing so, I am creating a product which is meant to be passively consumed by someone else. Do you believe that art should be created as stress relief, but not passively enjoyed by an audience?
Also, consider the fact that if I did not personally listen to music, read books, or watch movies, I would have no inspiration, no mental material with which to create this stuff. You cannot make something out of nothing. Inspiration is created by combining existing ideas in new ways, not by pulling something out of nothing. So perhaps art is, in and of itself, harmful to society completely? Or perhaps it should only be created for the sake of the artist, and not for the audience?
I think you answered your first paragraph with your second. By reading and listening to music, you are studying what elements would go well into your own creations, so it is not passive in that sense. Besides, I won't go so far as to say that all passive entertainment is counterproductive. Your point about stress is perfectly valid. I am just concerned that manufactured entertainment is consuming society as a whole.
CtrlAltDestroy wrote:
We are a pretty obsessive and inward-oriented community. Bronies have infected every corner of the internet, often to the detriment of our image. We should be concerned about these things and take them seriously.
I'm pretty sure that I can name about ten other fandoms that are larger and have committed more of these sins than Bronies ever have. In fact, I remember the good old days where adults never wanted to admit that they liked Pokemon. I guess MLP has overtaken the role of "embarrassing but trendy guilty pleasure". Point is, people will be people, and fandoms will always be crazy if they get too large. Don't let that ruin the reputations of the respectable fans.
I think I answered this in my above post and we are in agreement.
To a limited extent, you're right, but I strongly disagree with your second paragraph. We live in a time with outstanding adults-oriented entertainment... if you like dramas and reality TV. For the rest of us, who want something more carefree, MLP is perhaps the best show out there.
Really? So you've never heard of Archer, The Goode Family, Beavis and Butthead, Metalocalypse, and Futurama? (And that was just off the top of my head?)
The idea that the only modern-day "outstanding adults-oriented entertainment" is drama or reality TV is completely ridiculous. The overwhelming majority of television shows out there are carefree comedic fluff, including every single series I mentioned above. (Which are animated to boot)
And that's precisely why I called MLP strictly average; comparing it to any of those shows, not only is MLP far from the "best", it's like one or two whole levels inferior. I'd love someone to claim with a straight face that they think MLP has funnier jokes, more interesting storylines, and/or more original characters than those in Archer or Futurama, for instance.
To a limited extent, you're right, but I strongly disagree with your second paragraph. We live in a time with outstanding adults-oriented entertainment... if you like dramas and reality TV. For the rest of us, who want something more carefree, MLP is perhaps the best show out there.
Really? So you've never heard of Archer, The Goode Family, Beavis and Butthead, Metalocalypse, and Futurama? (And that was just off the top of my head?)
The idea that the only modern-day "outstanding adults-oriented entertainment" is drama or reality TV is completely ridiculous. The overwhelming majority of television shows out there are carefree comedic fluff, including every single series I mentioned above. (Which are animated to boot)
And that's precisely why I called MLP strictly average; comparing it to any of those shows, not only is MLP far from the "best", it's like one or two whole levels inferior. I'd love someone to claim with a straight face that they think MLP has funnier jokes, more interesting storylines, and/or more original characters than those in Archer or Futurama, for instance.
My friend highly recommends Archer. Futurama's latest episodes were extremely disappointing and I'd unhesitantly say that season 1 of MLP is more entertaining minute-for-minute than last summer's Futurama episodes. I can't personally speak to the quality of The Goode Family, but its reviews were mixed and it was short-lived. Beavis and Butthead is fun in small doses if it's your thing. I can honestly say I know absolutely nothing about Metalocalypse.
And all of those shows seem to have very adult elements, whether it's Beavis and Butthead's crude humor or the occasional far-reaching plot of Futurama or the strong themes of sex and violence throughout Archer. Those can be nice, but sometimes you just want to kick back and enjoy ponies for a half-hour.
I'm not looking for an argument. To each his own.
My friend highly recommends Archer. Futurama's latest episodes were extremely disappointing and I'd unhesitantly say that season 1 of MLP is more entertaining minute-for-minute than last summer's Futurama episodes.
I don't know about the series reboot; I've only watched the original. Regardless, it's amusing that a self-professed Brony has to compare the absolute worst of Futurama against the very best of MLP in order to even state (by his own tastes!) that MLP has a limited edge.
I mean, if that's the best thing you can say about the quality of your beloved show...
Bobo the King wrote:
I can't personally speak to the quality of The Goode Family, but its reviews were mixed and it was short-lived.
It might be more honest to type "I know absolutely nothing about it" here, instead of vaguely citing some reviews. The show was created by Mike Judge, the genius behind "Office Space", Beavis and Butthead, and King of the Hill, and it's easily the funniest thing he's ever done on television. In fact, I would probably take the lone season of The Goode Family over any season from any animated comedy ever.
Bobo the King wrote:
And all of those shows seem to have very adult elements, whether it's Beavis and Butthead's crude humor or the occasional far-reaching plot of Futurama or the strong themes of sex and violence throughout Archer. Those can be nice, but sometimes you just want to kick back and enjoy ponies for a half-hour.
I thought we were just talking about comedic, carefree, animated shows here, no? I don't remember you mentioning that we were also confining it to "shows with no adult elements".
But if we were, your position is even more confusing. As an adult, how is a show having "adult elements" a bad thing? I understand that for a small child, MLP is more age-appropriate than Metalocalypse or Archer, but for an adult? Why does it matter? Also, if you recall, "television entertainment for adults" is the standard which I judged MLP against and called "average at best", and which you so strongly disagreed with. Yet here, you're using an argument that is strictly to do with "television entertainment for children".
And why, as an adult, are "adult elements" such a negative thing for you? Is it a desire to escape into infantilism? A general aversion towards any content that is sexual, violent, or "indecent"?
Bobo the King wrote:
I'm not looking for an argument. To each his own.
I don't mind arguments myself, but it's strange that you type this after quoting my post and stating how strongly you disagreed with it. You basically start an argument (in a civil, reasonable manner, but still...), and then say you don't want one?!
My friend highly recommends Archer. Futurama's latest episodes were extremely disappointing and I'd unhesitantly say that season 1 of MLP is more entertaining minute-for-minute than last summer's Futurama episodes.
I don't know about the series reboot; I've only watched the original. Regardless, it's amusing that a self-professed Brony has to compare the absolute worst of Futurama against the very best of MLP in order to even state (by his own tastes!) that MLP has a limited edge.
I mean, if that's the best thing you can say about the quality of your beloved show...
Bobo the King wrote:
I can't personally speak to the quality of The Goode Family, but its reviews were mixed and it was short-lived.
It might be more honest to type "I know absolutely nothing about it" here, instead of vaguely citing some reviews. The show was created by Mike Judge, the genius behind "Office Space", Beavis and Butthead, and King of the Hill, and it's easily the funniest thing he's ever done on television. In fact, I would probably take the lone season of The Goode Family over any season from any animated comedy ever.
Bobo the King wrote:
And all of those shows seem to have very adult elements, whether it's Beavis and Butthead's crude humor or the occasional far-reaching plot of Futurama or the strong themes of sex and violence throughout Archer. Those can be nice, but sometimes you just want to kick back and enjoy ponies for a half-hour.
I thought we were just talking about comedic, carefree, animated shows here, no? I don't remember you mentioning that we were also confining it to "shows with no adult elements".
But if we were, your position is even more confusing. As an adult, how is a show having "adult elements" a bad thing? I understand that for a small child, MLP is more age-appropriate than Metalocalypse or Archer, but for an adult? Why does it matter? Also, if you recall, "television entertainment for adults" is the standard which I judged MLP against and called "average at best", and which you so strongly disagreed with. Yet here, you're using an argument that is strictly to do with "television entertainment for children".
And why, as an adult, are "adult elements" such a negative thing for you? Is it a desire to escape into infantilism? A general aversion towards any content that is sexual, violent, or "indecent"?
Bobo the King wrote:
I'm not looking for an argument. To each his own.
I don't mind arguments myself, but it's strange that you type this after quoting my post and stating how strongly you disagreed with it. You basically start an argument (in a civil, reasonable manner, but still...), and then say you don't want one?!
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
I don't think the writing of My Little Pony is necessarily average; it's just not written for you. I found the episode Look Before you Sleep to be a good example of this. The dialog was boring and predictable, the characterization simple and unbelievable. As an adult, I felt my intelligence was insulted by watching it... except that I wasn't being written for. It was written for the seven year old girl who I was babysitting at the moment, and on that level, the writing was actually pretty good! It'd be like dismissing a children's book on the basis of not being Shakespeare.
Now the G3 cartoons...
I an also see where Bobo is coming from with regards to adult themes and entertainment. Sometimes, as adults, you want to get away from all that "mature" stuff and settle down with something good, clean, and wholesome, something you wouldn't mind showing whatever young children are in your care, but can enjoy without them being around. Pixar is very good at this sort of thing.
Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -CS Lewis
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
I don't think the writing of My Little Pony is necessarily average; it's just not written for you. I found the episode Look Before you Sleep to be a good example of this. The dialog was boring and predictable, the characterization simple and unbelievable. As an adult, I felt my intelligence was insulted by watching it... except that I wasn't being written for. It was written for the seven year old girl who I was babysitting at the moment, and on that level, the writing was actually pretty good! It'd be like dismissing a children's book on the basis of not being Shakespeare.
I completely agree. That's also why I wrote that by the standards of children's animated series, MLP is good. Is it the absolute best within that genre, even among Western cartoons? From my own youth, I prefer Animaniacs and Conan the Adventurer. But it's good, and certainly way better than most 90's cartoons that I watched growing up. It accomplishes what it wants to.
But as you noted, it is made for little kids. And thus, certain adults loudly proclaiming its high quality by adult standards is that much more suspect.
Ferret Warlord wrote:
I an also see where Bobo is coming from with regards to adult themes and entertainment. Sometimes, as adults, you want to get away from all that "mature" stuff and settle down with something good, clean, and wholesome, something you wouldn't mind showing whatever young children are in your care, but can enjoy without them being around.
I completely understand and appreciate this. I'm the same way. However, if we're going down that road, I feel that, once again, there are so many dozens, if not HUNDREDS of better alternatives.
Watch a Leo McCarey comedy. Or a Danny Kaye film.
I loved their movies as a kid and I still love them now. They're innocent and care-free, and so much funnier, better written, and more interesting than MLP that even comparing them in the same sentence is an insult. Again, I dare anyone who has seen their pictures to disagree.
Even if one has a certain aversion to "mature" material, they can still do way better in terms of content. Again, it's why I believe the joys of fandom are the main appeal for the MLP community. I definitely understand and appreciate how fun it can be to call oneself a "Brony" and all that it entails.
Ferret Warlord wrote:
Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -CS Lewis
I'll ignore the fact that CS Lewis was a horrible hack writer and that I hated reading his books as a kid, while simultaneously adoring large collections of both Western and Oriental fairy tales, "The Hobbit", "The Wizard of Oz" series, etc. (Oops, too late)
The quote contains a good degree of truth, but again, more emphasis should be placed on the "moderation" part. Personally, I watched 7 full episodes of MLP, and am not ashamed to admit it to anyone. However, let's also not go too far in the other direction, and celebrate MLP solely for being childish.
And let's not confine every bit of our consumption of movies, books, and television shows to the same "carefree, childish" stuff, and then defend it as something intellectual and worthwhile, like so many people nowadays do. In a broader sense, I do feel that there's a heavy strain of infantilism in Western culture these days; many people want to "escape" back into their childhood instead of dealing with the cruel, difficult adult world.
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
IronSlayer wrote:
Watch... a Danny Kaye film.
I found a bow and arrow and I learned to shoot, I found a little horn and I learned to toot, now I can shoot and toot, ain't I cute? *ppbbttbtbtbtbt*
Otherwise completely agreed with everything.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
You asked why someone should watch the show and those are my reasons.
Nobody should have to justify why they engage in a harmless hobby. It's a hobby, and if someone enjoys it, they have all the right in the world to engage in it without having to explain themselves to anybody, and without people belittling or even insulting them because of it, or even dismissively asking for an explanation.
It's like those people dressing in costumes and camping for a week in front of a movie theater to see the latest Star Wars or whatever movie, or people cosplaying for an anime convention, and then some moron commenting that what a bunch of nerds, they should get a life. That kind of person is an idiot. People are entitled to engage in whatever hobby they want if they like it. If someone doesn't understand it, at least they should understand that different people have different interests, and that not everybody has to fit into the same preconceived mold of "adulthood", "manliness" or whatever crap.
(If someone wants to honestly know why people engage in a certain hobby, out of pure and innocent curiosity, and without any kind of dismissive or self-righteous preconceived attitude, and wants to engage in a mutual conversation about such hobbies, that's a completely different story. That kind of conversation can be an informative and fulfilling learning experience on sociology and human nature.)
(If someone wants to honestly know why people engage in a certain hobby, out of pure and innocent curiosity, and without any kind of dismissive or self-righteous preconceived attitude, and wants to engage in a mutual conversation about such hobbies, that's a completely different story. That kind of conversation can be an informative and fulfilling learning experience on sociology and human nature.)
I think this is one of the best posts so far. I feel the only thing missing is dragging TASing into the argument.
The people who think the show is "gay" are just like the people who cry "CHEATER" whenever they see a TAS. There are people who don't share the same interest and continue on with their lives ignoring the fact that TASes exist. Some see it as an act of demeaning video games and would rather avoid watching TAS runs. There may also be people annoyed to the point of dedicating their lives to stop this form of art and expression.
People are allowed to enjoy watching the show just like how people can watch TASes. There are people interested enough to keep track of stats, characters, story, pacing, music, actions, etc. People often get into TASing enough to do some small playarounds and eventually produce full runs of their favorite games. Just like how TASing can be used as a hobby to hone various skills, creating fan content for MLP can also be used to practice animation, voice work, music, sewing, or even programming (look at some of the games that fans are developing).
Perhaps we should be asking why you are watching/making TASes even though there are people who view TASing as a stupid useless hobby. I'm curious to see if you can do a better job at defending your hobby.
I was thinking earlier about what "adult cartoon shows" are good and I overlooked an obvious example. I have been a Simpsons fan my entire life and always will be. I grew up with the show and back in its heyday, it touched upon adult situations but never relied on them. It's distinctly geared toward adults, yet has never depended on gratuitous violence or sex to boost its ratings (in fact, I'd argue that most episodes with explicit sex or violence are among their worst). Something seems to have been lost from The Simpsons' glory days, since directors and executives apparently think that a show can't be sold to an adult audience without sex and violence. I find it tiresome and I suspect many bronies would agree with me.
Warp wrote:
Bobo the King wrote:
You asked why someone should watch the show and those are my reasons.
Nobody should have to justify why they engage in a harmless hobby. It's a hobby, and if someone enjoys it, they have all the right in the world to engage in it without having to explain themselves to anybody, and without people belittling or even insulting them because of it, or even dismissively asking for an explanation.
It's like those people dressing in costumes and camping for a week in front of a movie theater to see the latest Star Wars or whatever movie, or people cosplaying for an anime convention, and then some moron commenting that what a bunch of nerds, they should get a life. That kind of person is an idiot. People are entitled to engage in whatever hobby they want if they like it. If someone doesn't understand it, at least they should understand that different people have different interests, and that not everybody has to fit into the same preconceived mold of "adulthood", "manliness" or whatever crap.
(If someone wants to honestly know why people engage in a certain hobby, out of pure and innocent curiosity, and without any kind of dismissive or self-righteous preconceived attitude, and wants to engage in a mutual conversation about such hobbies, that's a completely different story. That kind of conversation can be an informative and fulfilling learning experience on sociology and human nature.)
I agree completely and I responded to Kuwaga only because he phrased it roughly as, "Why would I want to watch the show?" even if he was a little off the wall. To my surprise, we ended up on the same page. IronSlayer, on the other hand, seems to demand we justify why we like the show, which is just a matter of opinion and not worth arguing over. Hence, he gets the Pinkie Pie shrug.
IronSlayer wrote:
Warp wrote:
It's like those people dressing in costumes and camping for a week in front of a movie theater to see the latest Star Wars or whatever movie,
To be fair, anyone who does this suffers from a mental disorder. And should probably get a freaking job or education, instead.
It's distinctly geared toward adults, yet has never depended on gratuitous violence or sex to boost its ratings (in fact, I'd argue that most episodes with explicit sex or violence are among their worst).
To quote the Princess Bride, "this word...I do not think it means what you think it means." While you're at it, feel free to look up "gratuitous" in the dictionary as well, as you're misusing that word, too.
Bobo the King wrote:
IronSlayer, on the other hand, seems to demand we justify why we like the show,
Uh, no. I merely noted that the excitement and interest of MLP fandom far outstrips the show's actual quality. That was it. Then you made a post peevishly arguing with me about it, stating that MLP was simply the best. Immediately after I responded, you then wrote that you didn't want to argue about it. Even Pinkie Pie herself would be annoyed by your contradictory airheadedness.
Also, you might want to brush up on your poor reading comprehension along with those weak vocabulary skills.
Bobo the King wrote:
IronSlayer be trollin'.
Nope, dead serious. Camping out in front of the theater for a week to see a film indicates the person has severely fucked up priorities in life and/or is neglecting employment, school, and family.
