Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Being 9 minutes in, it would definitely not be worth switching. For future runs though, I would really love to see lsnes used. Though the emulator doesn't really seem very user friendly at all, without a traditional windows GUI.
Figured I might as well post what I have so far. I'm up to the pre X-ray room, and 58 frames ahead at that point (only 9 ingame). The pre X-ray room is not quite done yet, as I think a few more frames can be saved while still getting the extra drop (if lucky, it might even be possible to do it without wasting a missile on the waver). Having 1-2 extra missiles should probably speed up the last bit of refilling enough to justify wasting a few frames to get the drop, though I'll test it both ways.
Feel free to share any ideas for improvements.
smv
Is this the right smv? I watched just ceres, but you got 49:16 on the scape... what happened to the 49:23?
Edit: I see that this one is different by the use of a cwj going for the morphball... does that really save time? i remember suggesting this but was told that it wouldn't be worth as you could reach the platform not using a cwj.
Edit: I see that this one is different by the use of a cwj going for the morphball... does that really save time? i remember suggesting this but was told that it wouldn't be worth as you could reach the platform not using a cwj.
It's equally fast, I just thought it looked slightly better.
Edit: I see that this one is different by the use of a cwj going for the morphball... does that really save time? i remember suggesting this but was told that it wouldn't be worth as you could reach the platform not using a cwj.
It's equally fast, I just thought it looked slightly better.
I see. Yeah, it does look better.
Nice wip, Cp! I liked the enemies clean up in the first E.T rom.
To get the best time on the clock you need to delay the intro by several frames to manipulate the steam pattern in the second to last room. I lose 2 frames there because of a slightly worse pattern. Besides that, the clock moves either 00.02 or 00.01 per frame, and if you aim for ingame time you can manipulate this so that the clock goes 00.01 less in a room without actually saving any time.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
That was incredibly entertaining Cpadolf!!!
Quick question though. Was the CWJ before the Morph Ball after the Blue Brinstar elevator faster or did it equal the same frames? There was a lot of really nice room strats so far, I can't wait to see the end result!!!
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
I figured as much. You may not have saved frames, but you definitely earned some style points for that one!!!
The run stylistically is very entertaining so far I can't wait for more man, keep it up!!!
Cp, regarding that Early Shot in the robots in the gravity stataue room, once you reach the robot area and unmorph to start running, something that intrigues me is how you get to the Missile Pack slight early than my attempts. In the first smv you posted you unmorph and Samus is in position 199 iirc, and the same happens in my test, then i sart running in the same momment as you and armpump all the way to the Missile pack, but Samus "Freezes" collecting the missile pack with a "no-armpump position" while in your smv she gets there with an armpump position. The result is you can press down earlier to charge the shinespark and have Samus in the right spot for the shinespark up, while i have her a little more closer to the wall. The strange thing is, edited an smv with your imputs, placing them in the right place for a Samus to go all the way till the end of the smv, but what happened is that, as in your smv you charge the shinespark earlier, Samus crashes in the very ledge of the ceiling.
I was thinking that it could be the robots movements on the ground, if you get them to move to the direction you're running exactly when you are above them, they would give you a boost or something, changing your position slighty to the direction you're going, same as armpump. Is it right?
I checked and you do indeed get a boost from the robots walking in the right direction. This should be pretty easy to manipulate too, since they will almost instantly start to move back when shot.
Got up to just before Tourian in my run (haven't jumped up to the elevator). About 150 frames ahead at this point, though I have one PB less which might be troublesome. I skipped getting any PB drops in Pink Brinstar, because the Rio's didn't want to drop them in a reasonable timeframe (best I got was a ~25 frame delay for 1 PB, which is unlikely to be worth it). Also skipped one of the health drops on the way back from X-ray which saved 14 frames. Instead I got a health drop plus a missile drop in the last room in Pink Brinstar which took 2-3 frames longer, but having 2 missiles in Tourian saves 10 frames (and entering Tourian with just 3 PB's won't allow me to get any missiles).
I've tried figuring out any better spot to get any drops, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment since most enemies have an extremely low drop rate for PB's this early in the game. So I think it'll just be up to luck in Tourian now.
Smv
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Pretty amazing you were able to save 150 frames over your previous run, which was super optimized to begin with. This new run earns some serious style points too. Great job dude.
I am hoping that lsnes/bsnes gets a proper GUI with full TAS tools in the near future. It seems like we have all the information that we need to start a new 100% run now.
The lsnes thread is here but the files aren't so I uploaded my copy here.
Initially I tried the SDL version first which has no GUI... the wxwidgets version does though.
Found and fixed a minor error I did towards the end of the X-ray room on my way back that saved 2 frames (I think I accidentally recorded over the optimized method with an older test). Got super lucky against the first set of Metroids too, saving another 30-40 frames right of the bat (with essentially the same movements I used in my old run too). Still 3 rooms left that could potentially fuck up everything, but after that I'm basically set.
I checked and you do indeed get a boost from the robots walking in the right direction. This should be pretty easy to manipulate too, since they will almost instantly start to move back when shot.
Yeah, i though it was strange that even pressing the same buttons the result was that Samus would activate the shinespark in different locations. I managed to make the second robot to move and give Samus a small boost to the right, enough to pass the ledge and activate the shinespark. It allows Samus to land 4 pixels more to the left than not using one boost in the robots, iirc. If it will save anytime or not i have no idea.
Found a weird quirk that I can't really understand. In the 2nd and 4th of the Metroid rooms in Tourian, if you place the 2nd and 3rd powerbomb on the first frame possible you get like 40-50 frames more lag than if you just wait 1 extra frame to place it. And it's not dependent at all on positioning. I managed to avoid this in the 2nd room in my old run without knowing about it, but unwittingly lost ~100 frames in the 4th room because of it. No idea why this would happen, and why it would only happen in those two rooms. But hey, a huge timesaver is a huge timesaver.
It might be that the game hasn't finished calculating something (metroid AI? Something else?) by the time you lay a bomb, which, going by the amount of lag it generates, is very expensive computationally. Tracing the CPU instructions would help, but you'll probably be fine with just frame delay testing.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
That's probably true, but it's weird that it's specific to those two rooms. Maybe it has something to do with vertical scrolling. That's the only unique feature I can think of in those rooms.
Also another weird thing. Aiming up or down when going through a door can add lag, but it only happens extremely rarely, and also seem specific to certain rooms. It adds one frame of lag when leaving the room where you get the PB in Red Brinstar, and adds about 10 frames when entering the long vertical room in Pink Brinstar, on your way back to Tourian.
I am hoping that lsnes/bsnes gets a proper GUI with full TAS tools in the near future.
Do you guys plan making the new 100% run using this new emulator?
hero of the day wrote:
It seems like we have all the information that we need to start a new 100% run now.
The only thing I still want to test is if there's an earlier spot where you can land a PB to open the Yellow door leading to Lower Norfair elevator area. I'd like to test subpixel by subpixel going from the door left of the blue gate to the small morphball passage. I'm just too lazy to start testing.
Is there a way to know without testing, considering the distance from the door to the blue gate area and the range of the Power Bomb? If there is, it'll save me a lot of work.
Other than this idea, at the momment, I have nothing more to offer.
Also, i'm curious about if the new 100% run will really be slower in realtime. If so, this will be almost impossible to be published. Unless this new run improves the current run by any frame, although this new run will probably be more entertaining, it will be hard to accept an entertainment improvement with a slower run, considering this is not a playaround. Unless you guys don't mind about it beeing published or not.
As far as I'm aware, subpixels don't matter for collisions and blast radii.
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Also, i'm curious about if the new 100% run will really be slower in realtime. If so, this will be almost impossible to be published. Unless this new run improves the current run by any frame, although this new run will probably be more entertaining, it will be hard to accept an entertainment improvement with a slower run, considering this is not a playaround.
Actually, no, not at all. Judges are not stupid, they're well aware that more precise emulators might end up slower, and the difference might consume all the improvements. It doesn't mean the new run isn't better and thus isn't worth obsoleting the old.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
For some reason I cannot help but think that the spoken intro text is incomplete, and that the whole thing goes like:
The last metroid is in captivity.
The galaxy is at peace.
Your life, as it has been, is over.
From this time forward, you will service us.
Resistance is futile.
Also, i'm curious about if the new 100% run will really be slower in realtime. If so, this will be almost impossible to be published. Unless this new run improves the current run by any frame, although this new run will probably be more entertaining, it will be hard to accept an entertainment improvement with a slower run, considering this is not a playaround.
Actually, no, not at all. Judges are not stupid, they're well aware that more precise emulators might end up slower, and the difference might consume all the improvements. It doesn't mean the new run isn't better and thus isn't worth obsoleting the old.
Sorry, i was not clear. I mean, if the run is done in Snes9x, it will be slower in realtime, due to the additions of some door transitions. I don't know if the improvements found are enough to make the run faster, also, iirc, the current run could be faster in-game time if Cp was not optimizing door scrolling and stuffs like that, so, more realtime losses.
Even if the run would use the same emulator and end up slower due to optimizing for ingame time, I think it could still be published if it was clear that it's only slower because a the goal of the run was changed, that the new goal is more interesting/entertaining and that the new run is significantly more optimized.
