Sync effort is going pretty well. TR2 has to be manually finished due to an improvement I thought of, but I'm almost done with it.
FFR, all future .dsm's are going to be the US version, not the Euro versions anymore. Thanks Nitsuja for writing up the lua script to cover all three bases.
Finished TR2 7 frames faster. Time is now 37"20.
Crossing my fingers that the rest of the WIP will sync without a hitch. Sweet Mountain isn't nearly as laggy as Tropical Resort (I think because of the backgrounds. SM's are static).
EDIT
Woooooooooooooo, the rest synced up perfect :D. I can get back to work ^_^.
SM2 Finished. I'll get the .dsm uploaded once Captain Jelly is finished (sometime tomorrow). Out of all the levels, this is my least favorite one. The layout rarely is even for more than a second. It's full up of ups and downs, and it's a pain to optimize.
Link to video
Thanks for the detailed break down when you caught the question. Always interested in that stuff for Sonic games.
You're surely welcome. I'd have to write that information up when I submit this run at some point. Now it's fulfilled two purposes xD. I just have to add in one other part about the different directions while exploding (up, left/right and down), which makes a total of 23 different ways. 17 of those being combos of stage 3 explosions, but 9 are stage 2's that aren't used in the run. Actually, I don't think I used over 3 of the stage 3 combos with Stage 1 directions. I know I did Up - Stage 1 -> Left/Right - Stage 3 and Left/Right Stage 1 -> Left/Right Stage 3. Maybe it's only two lol.
Rather than being 18 combos, it's 17 because Down - Stages 1 & 2 give the same result.
I did a test run of one of the special stages today (second time doing so) and I just can't help but find the stages extremely boring. The test run isn't optimized besides trying out some different tricks and even then they wouldn't show up on Youtube due to 30 fps playback. So I can't help but think that they shouldn't be included. Nega-Mother Wisp is also pretty boring in my opinion (not to spoil the game, but it's kind of a throwback to SA2's final boss).
EDIT
I'm not sure why, but Captain Jelly attacks 16 frames earlier in this run. Input or restarting doesn't change it either. Delaying the stage start or beating the previous level by any amount of frames has no effect either. There is some kind of RNG because the only thing that makes a difference is resetting the game. This makes Captain Jelly behave like before, attacking 16 frames later.
EDIT 2
I've managed to reproduce the 16 frame improvement, although it's quite time consuming. The process is restarting once on another stage, exiting, then exiting sweet mountain, then reentering it and entering Captain Jelly. It does require each step in there and in that specific order (two restarts ruins it). I've even managed to make it slower (18 and 28 frames slower).
I'm not really sure everything that has an effect on the RNG. Dying in a level and then exiting a level, exiting a level without dying, exiting and entering a hub (each moving the rng, probably) all make an impact. Yet none of those actions has been performed more or less in this run in comparison to 0.9.6. I even ran SM1 and SM2 in real time from the point the hub was entered in the movie and still had the 16 frame improvement.
Since Globotron was exactly the same (Attacking on frame 318 of the fight) in both the old WIP and the new WIP, but Captain Jelly is different (16 frames faster) and nothing after entering Sweet Mountain's Hub had an effect, then I'm left with only one assumption.
Killing Globotron faster than the old WIP changed the RNG. The transitions from everything after the fight to Sweet Mountain's hub are optimal, and idling in hubs doesn't effect the RNG even if one WIP of the two hadn't been.
I'll also attempt to find the RNG's address too. Since I know what actions can force it to change, I'll eventually be able to find it/them (I hope it's only one lol).
EDIT 3
Well, those are the only four results I've come across (306, 320, 322 and 332). I've been measuring by when the first minion hits the ground and produces a shockwave.
I tried to RNG Globotron, but he always attacks on frame 318. Even fighting him directly after fighting him (which is my theory about the RNG changing), he still attacks at 318. So, I guess he's not effected by the RNG. I can't help but feel that those four differences for Cappie are really odd. It's a 16 frame difference, then a 2 frame difference, and then a 10 frame difference. There's no semblance of a pattern at all.
Good job with the second act of Sweet Mountain! I loved it.
VanillaCoke wrote:
Since Globotron was exactly the same (Attacking on frame 318 of the fight) in both the old WIP and the new WIP, but Captain Jelly is different (16 frames faster) and nothing after entering Sweet Mountain's Hub had an effect, then I'm left with only one assumption.
Killing Globotron faster than the old WIP changed the RNG. The transitions from everything after the fight to Sweet Mountain's hub are optimal, and idling in hubs doesn't effect the RNG even if one WIP of the two hadn't been.
Didn't you use different versions of the game in those two WIPs? Maybe the RNG works differently in each version.
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3
xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D
Help improving TASVideos!
First, thank you for watching!
As for the version differences... well, yes and no. Sweet Mountain 2 was about halfway finished when I was still using the Euro version. Since SM 1&2 sync up effortlessly between Euro and USA, it was easy to test that out. Same results (16 frames faster), same method works to manipulate the RNG to reproduce that 16 frame improvement.
I've also managed to produce the four variations on every setup (USA on 0.9.6, 0.9.7 and Euro on 0.9.6 and 0.9.7) this morning before going to class with resetting (always makes Captain Jelly attack at 320). So version differences (Both game and emulator) are ruled out. I still need to test if Globotron changes the rng. Rather than going through the hassle of editing the dsm, I'll just see what the results are by resetting before Captain Jelly, beating Globotron and differing times and record the results. I was really tired and could have given myself some results by recording Captain Jelly's attacks on each on of the real-time tests. I didn't think about it at the time until I was on my way to class.
More importantly, I'll hopefully find that RNG. I know that it moves during those four instances:
Exiting a level, Restarting once before exiting a level, Exiting a hub and entering a hub.
And it moves by a set value for each of them (that's why doing everything after beating Globotron in real time will produce the 306 variant). Maybe I can find that first, then I can watch the run to determine what else shifts the RNG or confirm the Globotron idea.
can you post a .dsm of your run? I wanted to try finding the RNG, but without a save nor run I’m guessing it would take me some time to get to a boss to test it
Yeah, sorry about that. I can TAS for hours on end, but I've been procrastinating on purpose pretty hard when it comes to finding the Dehacked upload link xD. I'm going to upload it now (I didn't actually get to search tonight, I had a bunch of classwork to finish that's due tomorrow).
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1844540252/Sonic%20Colors%205.dsm
Here's the link to Nitsuja's lua script (Frames for any current level are counted in blue): http://pastebin.com/gz975ErQ
I compare the differences by the blue shock-wave created by the first minion launched by the boss. It's easily recognizable.
Haven't really worked on this due to Kirby:RTDL coming out. The plan is:
1) Find the address(es) for the RNG and find all actions that cause it to change (if by a set value, which I assume it is, find what each action's value is).
2) Edit and freeze the values and see how it affects Captain Jelly fight.
3) Narrow this down to either A) Confirm 306 is the best result or B) Find the best result
4) Repeat 2 & 3 for the rest of the bosses.
If B is true for #3:
5) Either edit the Globotron fight for the best result in the Captain Jelly fight, or find another fast means of RNG manipulation
6) Finish the Captain Jelly fight while keeping the RNG as the main focus for the next boss.
Hopefully I'll get this all done by Monday. Classwork and RTDL are eating up my time xD
been playing your run, and I notice there are some parts where you run a lot without doing air dashes… why is that? I still have never played Colors, but at least in Rush Adventure doing continuous air dashes was faster than simple boost running
also noticed you don’t do the restart trick in act1… (is that faster in the first place?)
so far my attempts at finding the RNG have failed
edit: while TAing the 2nd boss, I found that you can go through the floor if you air dash against the invisible wall and do the stomp a little before landing http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/9371/wata.jpg I wonder if this could be useful somewhere? edit: lol, I think this could be used as entertainment instead of always running around like mad… actually I think it’d make the run slower, the strategy should be jumping on top of the first pirate thing then air boosting into the second
edit: by the way, I tested a lot and in your current WIP the 2nd boss attacks ASAP, you can continue TASing it
been playing your run, and I notice there are some parts where you run a lot without doing air dashes… why is that? I still have never played Colors, but at least in Rush Adventure doing continuous air dashes was faster than simple boost running
also noticed you don’t do the restart trick in act1… (is that faster in the first place?)
so far my attempts at finding the RNG have failed
edit: while TAing the 2nd boss, I found that you can go through the floor if you air dash against the invisible wall and do the stomp a little before landing http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/9371/wata.jpg I wonder if this could be useful somewhere? edit: lol, I think this could be used as entertainment instead of always running around like mad… actually I think it’d make the run slower, the strategy should be jumping on top of the first pirate thing then air boosting into the second
edit: by the way, I tested a lot and in your current WIP the 2nd boss attacks ASAP, you can continue TASing it
- The main reason is because this game is a bit different than in Rush/Rush Adventure. Sonic can't airdash while boosting like in those games and instead boost has to be released. So unfortunately, the same x-velocity/speed gains just aren't possible (It's not even possible to hit the x-velocity/speed "cap" on a flat surface lol).
If the space permits, I'll do it as much as possible since it's slightly faster than what's possible on the ground (3778*16), but the sections where I don't during the whole stretch are for at least one reason. Some common ones are: positioning on slopes to get a bigger boost when jumping (4036*16), needing to use boost for a portion of a long jump, dropped input frames.
On the plus side though, there is midair boosting in Sonic Colors that isn't in Rush/Rush Adventure, so there are some long jumps that would otherwise be impossible without it (as well as keeping a nice average x-velocity). It gives 0 y-velocity for 20 frames AND resets the airdash so it can be used again.
- I'll definitely check into that stomping glitch some more, that's an awesome find. I've got another stomp glitch that I'm going to use to kill it xD, so that works perfectly. Thanks for looking into everything too, I really appreciate it. My town has had a blackout since Sunday morning >_<, so I haven't been able to reply or get any work done on this. It's good to know that someone besides me confirmed that the Captain Jelly attacks asap.
- That strategy is the same one I used before and tested again and it is definitely the fastest one. Again, it's good to have someone else's opinion and insight on the matter since sometimes I find myself second guessing my selections and waste a lot of time finding other options (sometimes there are, usually there aren't). I also tested using Red Burst (Fire Wisp), but the animation the boss plays from it takes too long to be of any use in this fight.
ALAKTORN wrote:
I believe I found your RNG ;) 02120F8C, 4 bytes
Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaank youuuuuuuuu! ^_^. You're awesome xD.
EDIT
I'm taking a break to play Sonic Generations for a week or two starting tomorrow. I would attempt to finish this fight tonight, but I still need to understand how the RNG is going to manipulate the next boss and every other boss as well.
I'm debating completing all inputs for each boss before I work on another level. My experience so far has been that bosses don't have dropped input frames (just lag frames), so syncing should work with little changes besides line editing. I'll make sure to test this out before I get really invested in making inputs for each boss. It's just a preference thing since bosses takes about a max of three days versus some levels taking weeks. It'll be worse after Starlight Carnival, as I never TASed the remaining levels. I plan to each level at least three times to get everything from the routes to the individual sections down optimally.
and one more time (definitely not the last), thanks again ALAKTORN. I really appreciate your help in getting that RNG address. I haven't checked anything besides Captain Jelly, but it definitely does the trick ^_^.
Captain Jelly is "finished". Still haven't taken a good look at the RNG, so that's why I have finished in quotes.
I decided I'm going to skip Starlight Carnival until I can get Cyan Laser. It'll easily cut ten seconds off the first act (my old WIP is barely faster than the human record over at the Sonic Center, which isn't bad for being almost a year later) since I won't have to travel out of my way. It might be a pain due to all the possible combinations when using the laser as far as coordinates and angles go.
November has been a pretty crazy month with game releases (Seriously, I've been lucky to finish a game or two before another few released). I've finished up on everything I've wanted to play that's come out, so now I'm going to back to TASing this again on the 22nd. I've already got my plan laid out for what to do in my prior posts, so I won't say the same thing twice.
Should have everything hammered out by the end of the week and hopefully have the final route for AP all set after a few trial runs.
Have you made any progress on this run? I look forward to seeing it in the workbench. Did you like Sonic Generations? I think it's the best Sonic game of the last decade.
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3
xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D
Help improving TASVideos!
btw, for Captain Jelly there’s some sort of glitch(?) where Burst does ×2 damage for apparently no reason, it’s how Cruizer got his TA record… would that be helpful for a TAS?
he had a video but it seems like it’s lost now, he simply went from right to left while in Burst and released a charge next to the boss that just fell down
edit: he found it and is gonna upload it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B36AvpTutAI
btw, for Captain Jelly there’s some sort of glitch(?) where Burst does ×2 damage for apparently no reason, it’s how Cruizer got his TA record… would that be helpful for a TAS?
he had a video but it seems like it’s lost now, he simply went from right to left while in Burst and released a charge next to the boss that just fell down
edit: he found it and is gonna upload it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B36AvpTutAI
Red Burst? When I checked in '10, I found that the animation burst causes Jelly to do does takes too long. It's worth taking another look.
It's been awhile since I burned myself out back in October. I did finish Jelly up in December, but I didn't post anything since it's not finalized (never took a look at RNG manipulation needed for the next boss). I might just take a look at Burst again though.
And yeah, I loved generations. Chemical Plant lagged really badly on my PC, but I think it was an amazing game xD. The 3DS version is really good too if you can get a chance to play it.
EDIT
Off the top of my head, all I can think of when I watch it is that maybe Cruizer touched Jelly's hurtbox during the Stage 3 Explosion delay with burst's innate hitbox, then the hitbox of the Stage 3 explosion hit afterward. I'm not sure if it's possible to be knocked out of the stage 3's explosion delay. Or maybe that delay makes Burst's innate hitbox do the same damage as the level 3 explosion. Then those two hits together would explain the double damage.
I've got tons of ideas now xD, I think this is just what I needed.
Same thing for me too. Hm... it's so close to tell exactly what happened. Early day tomorrow otherwise I'd try some more.
I do have a few other ideas.
A) hit with the innate hitbox during the stage 3 delay while Jelly is still falling (so, be under Jelly) to the ground, then the stage 3 explosion hitbox hits once he does hit the ground.
B) Close the gap between the innate hitbox hitting and the explosion hitbox hitting as much as possible. If Jelly is any indication, this should be between 4 and 5 frames depending on lag.
Still, it looks like Cruizer hits Jelly with the innate hitbox since he moves up and right before exploding. He doesn't use any explosions during the delay either if the thumbs are any indication, ....although that might be a good work around.
So I've found that the RNG advances during:
Gaining or losing boost gauge (Only once per action, not per frame)
Killing an enemy (Even though this seems relate to gaining boost, I speculate it will move the RNG with a full Boost gauge)
Results screen
Well, those are the most important anyways. So it seems like the results screen is the easiest means of manipulating the RNG since it won't involve losing time with excess boosting or glitching through enemies.
Joined: 10/11/2009
Posts: 52
Location: Sydney, Australia
VanillaCoke wrote:
Off the top of my head, all I can think of when I watch it is that maybe Cruizer touched Jelly's hurtbox during the Stage 3 Explosion delay with burst's innate hitbox, then the hitbox of the Stage 3 explosion hit afterward. I'm not sure if it's possible to be knocked out of the stage 3's explosion delay. Or maybe that delay makes Burst's innate hitbox do the same damage as the level 3 explosion. Then those two hits together would explain the double damage.
I've got tons of ideas now xD, I think this is just what I needed.
To be honest, thats what I thought it was too, but then when discussing it with ALAKTORN, this:
ALAKTORN wrote:
about your explanation of Cruizer’s vid… it’s the same of what I thought, but I couldn’t replicate it when I TAS’d it :/
So it puzzles me quite a lot now. It would be hilarious if this was version specific to Europe. But i doubt this as ALAKTORN would have been able to do it as well. Regardless, stomping would probably much faster, so i'd save this just for burst investigation :P
So after Sweet Mountain, it would be Aquarium Park to get Laser? Since Drill isn't used at all in that stage.
So after Sweet Mountain, it would be Aquarium Park to get Laser? Since Drill isn't used at all in that stage.
Yep. I'm procrastinating pretty hard on Jelly right now. I'll have him finished sometime today though.
Btw, I sent you a YT message about Jelly. I'm not really sure how to reach you effectively xD.
Joined: 10/11/2009
Posts: 52
Location: Sydney, Australia
VanillaCoke wrote:
Cruizer wrote:
So after Sweet Mountain, it would be Aquarium Park to get Laser? Since Drill isn't used at all in that stage.
Yep. I'm procrastinating pretty hard on Jelly right now. I'll have him finished sometime today though.
Btw, I sent you a YT message about Jelly. I'm not really sure how to reach you effectively xD.
Yeah i got that message, seems like it would be good. But a good place to try and contact me, is either through Twitter (@cruizerwolf), or through The Sonic Center's chatroom. I'm there now and then.
