Joined: 11/26/2010
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Location: New York, US
Hero wouldn't Speed Keeping to the Chozo Statue be faster? If not it would be interesting to see the 2 Shine Spark Crash Animation Cancel.
I could be wrong but, I remember messing around with multiple Shine Sparks after a Power Wave Combo and doesn't that only work within a certain period of time? If not, thank you because you just developed a Console time saver for us!!!!!!!!!!
Can you Shine Spark first, Power Wave combo and then Shine Spark?
The only other room where two shinesparks are used is in Draygon's room, but the second shinespark doesn't even reach the wall. Though, thinking about it, maybe this trick could be used in console for PAL, so after the second shinespark on Draygon, Samus would recover fast enough to try another shinespark or something like that.
Edit: I think i sugegsted this before, but i don't remember if it was tested or not, so i'll suggest again: Right after killing Kraid, charge a shinespark while the spikes in the ground are desapearing, enter the room in the right to get the Varia, back to Kraid's room but jumping through door transition, shoot a Super Missile in mid air and shinespark, so Samus goes over the pipe in the next room and reaches the door.
Health won't be an issue, as in a new run the WS attic will use the grapple technique to reach the crateria missile pack instead of the shinespark method.
Where was the video of this posted? I know I've seen it at some point but I can't seem to find it.
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Edit: I think i sugegsted this before, but i don't remember if it was tested or not, so i'll suggest again: Right after killing Kraid, charge a shinespark while the spikes in the ground are desapearing, enter the room in the right to get the Varia, back to Kraid's room but jumping through door transition, shoot a Super Missile in mid air and shinespark, so Samus goes over the pipe in the next room and reaches the door.
If you have enough energy it's probably worth it yeah.
Health won't be an issue, as in a new run the WS attic will use the grapple technique to reach the crateria missile pack instead of the shinespark method.
Where was the video of this posted? I know I've seen it at some point but I can't seem to find it.
I think this is what you're talking about. Also, there is this trick Saturn posted in the same page long time ago.
Edit: Btw, it was in page 200 of this thread and i was looking for it too.
Edit 2: Regarding Wave beam, it saves time in the blue gate when going for Crocomire's lair, cause you can shoot in the downwest gate from northreast (when you enter the room), so when you get there you have no delay shooting a missile to open it from oposite side.
Edit 3: Would it be possible to go for Kraid After Maridia?
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Cpadolf wrote:
hero of the day wrote:
Health won't be an issue, as in a new run the WS attic will use the grapple technique to reach the crateria missile pack instead of the shinespark method.
Where was the video of this posted? I know I've seen it at some point but I can't seem to find it.
I think this is what you're talking about. Also, there is this trick Saturn posted in the same page long time ago.
Edit: Btw, it was in page 200 of this thread and i was looking for it too.
Edit 2: Regarding Wave beam, it saves time in the blue gate when going for Crocomire's lair, cause you can shoot in the downwest gate from northreast (when you enter the room), so when you get there you have no delay shooting a missile to open it from oposite side.
Edit 3: Would it be possible to go for Kraid After Maridia?
That was awesome!!!!! Will you be doing something like that when you first enter the Attic Room?
Anyway Reeve that's a great idea you have after the Kraid fight, probably save at least a whole second maybe even more!!!!!!
I asked that before and nobody answered before. I highly doubt it possible because later Kraid means no Varia Suit which means you take more damage in the Wrecked Ship. It would be nice if it was possible though cause it would be faster but, like I said I highly doubt it.
Edit: I think i sugegsted this before, but i don't remember if it was tested or not, so i'll suggest again: Right after killing Kraid, charge a shinespark while the spikes in the ground are desapearing, enter the room in the right to get the Varia, back to Kraid's room but jumping through door transition, shoot a Super Missile in mid air and shinespark, so Samus goes over the pipe in the next room and reaches the door.
Edit: I think i sugegsted this before, but i don't remember if it was tested or not, so i'll suggest again: Right after killing Kraid, charge a shinespark while the spikes in the ground are desapearing, enter the room in the right to get the Varia, back to Kraid's room but jumping through door transition, shoot a Super Missile in mid air and shinespark, so Samus goes over the pipe in the next room and reaches the door.
Oh yeah, thanks, actually it's in the next page. Well, you said you tested and the spikes keep in the way of Samus, so it was slower. That's a shame.
Anyway, had two other ideas: In the first Brinstar clean up (after Wrecked Ship), when going for the last missile, it seems it's possible to land a power bomb in mid air, between the first bug pipe and the two breakeable blocks in the left, so it will open the yellow door leading to Blue Brinstar. Doing that will allow to open the door faster when returning from Norfair and going for the Blue Brinstar clean-up.
The other idea is for the Missile pack before Draygon. The idea is to get some run-up in the previous run, do a very low jump through the door or after the door in a way that you can CWJ in the two blocks in the water. After that i don't know what would be better, to use the grapple blocks next to the missile or morph in mid to go further...
This is what he was referring to before I believe.
I think this is what he means now to charge before the Varia Suit as Kraid's dieing and pick up the Varia Suit and Shine Spark in the next room after shooting the door open with a Super Missile. So you hit the door before Mini-Kraid. The other way is definitely slower but, this way could prove to be faster with testing.
Edit: Never mind because Kriole said the spikes get in the way. Would have been nice otherwise.
BTW that's a great idea about the Power Bomb Reeve!!!! If it doesn't hit the door they can probably Morph and drop a Power Bomb and unmorph before the land instead of just landing and running to ball up to the Missile Pack. Also that way might reduce lag as well. This idea might even have use for console!!! I'll test if its faster for us in a few days and thanks for the idea!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also about the room before Draygon. I think that would be slower then just grappling across honestly.
Anyway Reeve you've had some great ideas so far, keep it up!!!!!!!
If you have the energy, and if it is possible to charge the shinespark after defeating kraid and still enter the door on the first possible frame, then it seems like it saves about 30 frames. Compared to my old run anyway, but that could obviously be improvable.
Smv
If you have the energy, and if it is possible to charge the shinespark after defeating kraid and still enter the door on the first possible frame, then it seems like it saves about 30 frames. Compared to my old run anyway, but that could obviously be improvable.
Smv
Thanks for making it, and i liked the .smv's name.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
That's awesome. The only concern here is that there might not be enough energy to do the shinespark.
Also, using the power bomb early on the green brinstar door makes perfect sense. I see no reason why that wouldn't save a good chunk of time.
BTW that's a great idea about the Power Bomb Reeve!!!! If it doesn't hit the door they can probably Morph and drop a Power Bomb and unmorph before the land instead of just landing and running to ball up to the Missile Pack. Also that way might reduce lag as well. This idea might even have use for console!!! I'll test if its faster for us in a few days and thanks for the idea!
Also about the room before Draygon. I think that would be slower then just grappling across honestly.
Thanks, Forensics! At first i didn't think about the Power Bomb stuff as a console trick, but yeah, it would save some time too, because when returning and space jumping, you wouldn't have to morph in mid air to land the power bomb and wait for it to open the door.
Regarding the CWJ stuff, yeah, thinking about it seems slower, but it looked cool in my mind! :-D
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
Anyway Reeve you've had some great ideas so far, keep it up!
I think i ran out of ideas now. :-p
Edit: It seems i was mistaken... here is another one:
Don't know if you guys considered this already, but: In Cp's movie, when he reaches the bubble room, he goes straight to the hiden missile with a CWJ. My idea is to avoid that missile and instead go straight up, and let the missile for after LN. Now, After collecting the Reserve Tank (Norfair clean-up), you guys usually leave the northwest room with a mockball getting a damage and going straight through the door, the idea is to keep that speed going straight to the missile, but When Samus reaches a certain position in the screen, land a power bomb in a way that it cleans the left pb shortcut, so you won't have delay. Basically this idea ocurred to me long time ago and was pointed for the realtime runners, thing is it seems it would work for TAS too, at least in my mind.
Edit 2: Go to "Edit 4:".
Edit 3: Another idea: It seems possible, i don't know if it would be faster. In the Brinstar Clean-up after WS, when you reach the big room (the one with the Charge Beam in the bottom) you guys go to the left passage, where there is a missile and a hidden passage to the a Power Bomb pack. My idea is to get to that room, quickly handle the two big hoppers, go down to the power bomb using the quick fall through the crumble block, get the PB and quickly walljump back, and go through the door using the last spike on the ground for a damage boost landing on the crumble block in the next screen. After the crumble block you just have to fall using the crumble blocks trick again and use a mockball under the block to land a power bomb when Samus start to fall to clean the passage to Spore Spawn's Super Missile and opening the yellow door to the E.T. I was afraid Samus would have not time enough to reach the bottom after falling through the crumble block (where the PB pack is) and come back, but with a realtime test i could fall and jump back (not collecting the PB pack), so i think it's at least possible if not faster.
Edit 5: Regarding that double kago room in Lower Norfair, i know it's possible to go up through the spiked platforms without taking damage (the damage here doesn't seem to be a problem anyway) using the Screw Attack, so instead of using the morph/springball, wouldn't it be faster to use the Screw Attack, so Samus wouldn't have to worry about the unmorph animation in the top of the room. I don't know if jumping is faster than springballing but this came up in my mind and could be tested if it wasn't yet.
Edit 4: hero of the day wrote:
That's awesome. The only concern here is that there might not be enough energy to do the shinespark.
I noticed that in Cp's run, after collecting Crocomire's Energy Tank, he dives in the lava (Saturn's trick to cross WS lake was not known at the time) and loses 77 points of health, also he left behind some 30 points of health by not using the shinespark/wrap around after killing Crocomire, and he reached Kraid with 50 points of health. It doesn't seem to me he stopped to refill, so if you get the same drops as he did and only avoid diving in the lava you would have 77+50 health points. In Cp's last smv he lost 74 health points for the shinespark, so, if you guys manage to find a way to make this shinespark stuff work, health could not be a problem at all.
Edit 5: Is this useful.
Btw, can anyone give me the microstorage link?
Edit 6 (last one, i promise): Regarding this smv i posted above, after some not very precise calculation, I found that it's useless, cause if not slower it would be at most equally fast but loosing more than twice the health.
Edit 7 (I'm a liar): I was thinking about a different route, seems possible but not doable. Also, of course i didn't test it to see if it's faster or not, i'm just throwing it here, as i said before, not worrying in beeing dumb.
The route would change actually after WS. My idea is to take the same route as the any% run when after WS going to Maridia and the X-Ray could be collected while going down the Brinstar Shaft. Also, due to lack of Health, the Maridia mainstreet missile would be taken after Lower Norfair/Norfair. After getting the Maridia mainstreet Missile pack, you guys would have to go up leaving Maridia and emerging on Crateria surface. Once in Crateria surface you would go collect the PB pack and enter the Gauntlet. After that you would proceed to Brinstar clean up, and then Blue Brinstar Clean up and going up to Crateria again as usual. Biggest problem with this route is that you would need around 530 health points for the two shinesparks (Cp had 5 Energy Tanks and 1 Reserve Tank, but was low in health) going for X-ray and back. Also, there would be less Energy Tanks (Doesn't seem much of a problem from Maridia on) and 2 Super Missiles packs less.
Edit 8: Thinking about the above suggestion, it may not be that hard to handle with the health situation. After reaching Pink Brinstar, there could be a way to get one big health of the cactis without delay. In the next room some crabs and bugs could be manipulated to give big healths too. In Brinstar Shaft there could be a way to get a big health from the small leach and maybe even use the unmorph animation to get one big health from the bug in the left pipe or something like that. After charging the shinespark, if done as in the last .smv posted by hero, some missiles could be used in the enemies to make them quickly drop some big healths too before activating the Shinespark.
If this route proves possible, there could be some interesting new strats for the clean-ups, as for example using Screw Attack for Northeast Landing Site PB pack, Enter the Gauntlet in full Speed using the spring Ball, get the two missiles behind the chozo holding the E.T with a spring blue Ball, spacing jump up in full speed after collecting that E.T below the Charge Beam, and using the springball to land a PB to open the Yellow dor leading to Blue Brinstar while keeping the speed to enter the pipe and collect the Missile Pack. This are the ones i remembered.
Edit 9 (probably the most edited post in history): I just realized that the suggested route has one more elevator transition than the usual route. It's a sh*t that the elevators cost so many in-game seconds.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Those are some really great idea's dude!
Bubble room idea:
This would need to be tested, but it has a chance of beaing faster. When CP's run was being made, I deemed that getting the pack early would be a good idea, because it allows for a big E drop, which is critical at this point in the run. Further evaluation would be needed to determine if this can be changed.
Pink brinstar cleanup:
This is a really really cool idea. I wonder if anyone tested this before? I think it has a good chance of being faster.
Kago stuff:
Is there a run that currently uses the screw attack to pass the spike platforms? I don't think I've seen this done before.
Route change:
I have been contemplating a binstar cleanup route change too. No matter what I come up with, it always seems like the current route is the fastest possible way. Like you said above, your route idea would include another 10 second elevator ride. The improvements to be had in the cleanup would be awesome with the spring/screw/space stuff, but I don't know if it can make up for that extra elevator trip.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
I didn't read all of them before because I was busy watching SDA's Awesome Games Done Quick. After looking those are some really interesting ideas Reeve. You've been on fire lately!!!!!!!!
Reeve I think the fastest way for the Kago Room after the Kung-Fu Hunters would be what Saturn did in his GT Code TAS. Which is what I believe they were planning to do anyway.
Kago stuff:
Is there a run that currently uses the screw attack to pass the spike platforms? I don't think I've seen this done before.
I never saw any run using this too, but it's something i found sometime ago and was wondering if it was faster or slower.
hero of the day wrote:
Route change:
I have been contemplating a binstar cleanup route change too. No matter what I come up with, it always seems like the current route is the fastest possible way. Like you said above, your route idea would include another 10 second elevator ride. The improvements to be had in the cleanup would be awesome with the spring/screw/space stuff, but I don't know if it can make up for that extra elevator trip.
It seems hard to test if it would be or not faster, but if it was at least equally fast, i'd love to see a change. It seems that despite the boring elevator transition, it could be more entertaining to change the route and the way some rooms are cleared.
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
Reeve I think the fastest way for the Kago Room after the Kung-Fu Hunters would be what Saturn did in his GT Code TAS. Which is what I believe they were planning to do anyway.
I remembered that after i posted, but i was wondering if using the Screw Attack to go through the Spiked Platforms would be slower or just equally fast.
Edit: Btw, hero, doesn't the elevator ride cost 8sec and 30 frames? Also i was wondering if the route itself would be slower or despite the improvements possible by the new equipments, it would save some time...
Wow, yeah, that alternative route after the PB in Pink Brinstar is something like 2 seconds faster. I didn't optimize the end of the test either (the last mockball), so it could probably be done a bit faster still. Should be possible to get 2 supers to drop too (one from a hopper and one from the flyer at the end), and hopefully you can get away with using less than 2 supers on the hoppers as well.
CoolStuffINC
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
CP:
That was awesome! I had an idea that may save even more time on top of the smv you have. How about if you used the power bomb that would normally open the secret passage way (normally planted nearer to the grapple blocks) on the floor instead. This would open both the secret passage way and the orange door (which would be able to be opened quickly after exiting the PB pack area).
Wow, yeah, that alternative route after the PB in Pink Brinstar is something like 2 seconds faster. I didn't optimize the end of the test either (the last mockball), so it could probably be done a bit faster still. Should be possible to get 2 supers to drop too (one from a hopper and one from the flyer at the end), and hopefully you can get away with using less than 2 supers on the hoppers as well.
CoolStuffINC
That's really cool! Thanks for testing it.
hero of the day wrote:
They cost 560 frames approximately or 9.5 seconds
Do you have an smv of passing the spike using the screw attack?
Nope, unfortunatelly. Anyway it was just realtime tests i was doing. It's not hard also, you just have to kinda "SpaceJump up" in the exactly momment the spiked platform is going down. You just have to be very close to it.
Edit: Regarding that route change, just another two time savers i remembered tht would be possible using spring ball and space jump: when cleaning up Brinstar and going for the Missile Pack under the bridge (First Super Missile room), you could leave a power bomb on the bridge, get the missile, mockball and use the spring ball to go through the door straight down.
Also, when going for the Spore Spawn's Super Missile pack, when you reach the first bug pipe, do a knockback boost while shooting a Super Missile in the green door, go for the Super and when returning, charge the Spazer, and right before jumping over the pipes, release the beam and space jump full speed to the next room, then use a super in the block and mockball through the passage. If you guys find a way to make the door to open without the plasma, it would save time in the usual route too and maybe even more if you go for the Energy Tank above the Super Passage before going down (as Hero suggested), so when leaving that area you would be in full speed with the boostball.
Edit 2: Regarding the Super drops, it seems is possible to get another Super Drop from the Hopper right above the passage down to the PB. The idea here is to shoot up a Missile as late as possible, get the power bomb and quickly jump up, it seems Samus can catch the missile while it kills the Big Hopper, so you can use the Grapple to collect the Super.
Edit 3: Oh sh*t, forgot that you don't have the space jump in the usual route. :-p
CP:
That was awesome! I had an idea that may save even more time on top of the smv you have. How about if you used the power bomb that would normally open the secret passage way (normally planted nearer to the grapple blocks) on the floor instead. This would open both the secret passage way and the orange door (which would be able to be opened quickly after exiting the PB pack area).
You mean like this?
It does make sense to do that. It only takes another second or so to open the door in that way, and it probably takes more than 2 seconds for the extra trip up and back down again if you take Spore Spawns Super first.
Gonna be annoying to find the sweet spot to open the reverse gate with a super as it's not going to be the same as in the RBO because of high-jump.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Thanks for making those .smv Cpadolf you really brought Reeve and Hero's ideas to life!!!!!!!
Could you use a Power Spazer Combo to kill the first Hopper or would it be slower?
Fucking Incredible Stuff Guys, Keep It Up!!!!!!!!
Might be possible to add a door CWJ there to get the desired height in the next room. The issue is Hi-jump, which might make it so that Samus hits the roof, so you'd probably have to unspin and aim down.
