If I had to wager a guess, I would say that doing all of Norfair in a single trip would be much slower. The main problem would be the gold torizo and ridley fights.
Also lack of space jump, both for general movement and for reaching the gold torizo.
Cpadolf wrote:
unless there's some convenient E-tank laying around that I'm forgetting.
The closest one is the early e-tank that recently spawned in blue brinstar. It's just a room away, but still takes more time than refilling 100e at the pipe bugs. Unless you find another use for the tank or the nearby missile pack.
Do the wraparound shots require charge, or does it also work with uncharged wave?
If charge+wave is acquired early, has anyone tested wave-PB combos against phantoon to sneak in some damage before the missiles start hitting? Will he just disappear before you can stunlock him? Or could you possibly time the wave-PB combos so that they hit at the same time as the final super missile?
Can't be more than a second saved, but it may be worth trying to tip the scales in favor of early wave.
Of course, you'll have to postpone spazer until before maridia then.
Do the wraparound shots require charge, or does it also work with uncharged wave?
Iirc, behemoth used a regular shot (not charged) to open the blue brinstar e-tank left door in his realtime run...
Tub wrote:
If charge+wave is acquired early, has anyone tested wave-PB combos against phantoon to sneak in some damage before the missiles start hitting? Will he just disappear before you can stunlock him? Or could you possibly time the wave-PB combos so that they hit at the same time as the final super missile?
It's possible to hit phantoon with missiles after the power wave combo, at least i did hit one missile on him. Don't know if the power wave combo could be delayed in a way that Samus go far enough from him to start the doppler effect, but i think it would not be possible to time the power wave to hit phantoon with the last super toghether, because if the power wave particles are on screen, samus would not be abble to shoot the missiles.
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Yea but they can do it frame by frame and hit him with missiles after the Power Wave Combo hits. So it sould be no problem for them if its even possible that is. they might have to delay the Spazer for after the Wrecked Ship or turn it off in the Start Menu which I don't mind at all. Some may disagree with more Start Menus but, I don't mind them at all if it means a faster ingame time!!!!
Interesting idea, so you could lay the pb when mockballing under the Chozo and you can mockball with high speed straigh to the second missile pack too. It would be great if you had enough missiles to open the door to the Reserve Tank area, so when going for the Brinstar Clean-up you could shoot a slow beam and run and jump straight through the door, mockballing under the chozo statue (if the jump was even possible). It seems your idea wouldn't be hard to test. One negative point, as far as i could notice, is the long room with that crabs in the ground and the flyers comming to you. You wouldn't have missiles to handle all the enemies and would have to just mockball through the crab.
If it had been possible to pre-open the door you could have done a blueball into the next room and destroyed the bomb blocks with your bluesuit, but unfortunately you don't have enough missiles at that point. It might still be possible to do the blueball even if you have to open the door with a super, but that would be at a much lower speed (and would be a bit tricky since you have to get to a certain speed to pass through the gates at all, even with armpumping).
Interesting idea, so you could lay the pb when mockballing under the Chozo and you can mockball with high speed straigh to the second missile pack too. It would be great if you had enough missiles to open the door to the Reserve Tank area, so when going for the Brinstar Clean-up you could shoot a slow beam and run and jump straight through the door, mockballing under the chozo statue (if the jump was even possible). It seems your idea wouldn't be hard to test. One negative point, as far as i could notice, is the long room with that crabs in the ground and the flyers comming to you. You wouldn't have missiles to handle all the enemies and would have to just mockball through the crab.
If it had been possible to pre-open the door you could have done a blueball into the next room and destroyed the bomb blocks with your bluesuit, but unfortunately you don't have enough missiles at that point. It might still be possible to do the blueball even if you have to open the door with a super, but that would be at a much lower speed (and would be a bit tricky since you have to get to a certain speed to pass through the gates at all, even with armpumping).
Unfortunatelly, that damn missile pack under the bridge can't be collected without triggering the damn gate if so... Leaving the room after collecting it would be too slow unfortunatelly...
Edit: Watching Wrecked ship some ideas came to my attention, and as i don't know if it was tested or not i thought it would be better to share them and not worry about beeing dumb.
1: When going to to Phantoon's lair, in the bottom of Wrecked Ship, Samus drop a Power Bomb to break the block in the small passage leading to the Eyed door. Isn't it faster to do a Short Charge to break the block with a blue ball?
2: After collecting the 2nd Super Missile pack, instead of landing a PB to break the above block, Isn't it faster to use a Short Charge and blue ball?
3:In the room after collecting the WS Energy Tank, isn't it faster to avoid the damage in the eletric stuff and instead get a damage boost from the below eletric stuff to make Samus fly straight down to the water?
Edit 2: In the Landing Site, instead of stopping, and jumping on the Ship to release the diagonal shinespark, isn't it faster to just keep going till after the ship and release the shinespark from there?
Edit 3: This one goes for any% run. When leaving LN, in the top of the 3 red ki-hunters room, start to charge a shinespark there and while going through the door in a way that you can use it in the next pilars, so you don't have to lay two bombs and the power bomb to clean them all.
Edit 4: After the Blue Brinstar clean up and after the Super Missile pack in Crateria, there's a Missile pack in the left but a lot of blocks in the way which are cleaned using a PB, can a Blue Ball be used there or there's not enough space to charge a shinespark?
Joined: 11/14/2005
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Kriole wrote:
The time it takes for a CF to start is 154 frames. It cannot possibly be worth it.
But you can shoot ridley after laying to power bomb to finish him off and before the CF activates. There wouldn't be any time lost at all. Though I cannot even confirm that him grabbing samus would result in a shinespark. It was just a theory, and I see no reason why it wouldn't work in this case.
Eye of the beholder:
Good suggestions, I will try to answer what I can:
1. There isn't enough room to charge a blue suit here
2. It is faster in realtime to do a bluesuit here, yes. For in-game time, the power bomb is faster.
3. Not sure exactly which room you are referring to here. Can you please clarify? Landing in water here would be a problem due to lack of gravity suit.
And in regards to the landing site spark, that is something to consider, but I bet CP had tested that in his run. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Eye of the beholder:
Good suggestions, I will try to answer what I can:
1. There isn't enough room to charge a blue suit here
Sorry i was not clear... i'm not talking about the platform you first land once you get to the bottom room, but jumping to the ground and doing a short charge, and then jump above the robot to do the mockblueball.
hero of the day wrote:
3. Not sure exactly which room you are referring to here. Can you please clarify? Landing in water here would be a problem due to lack of gravity suit.
The room right after the Energy Tank after defeating Phantoon, in the right side of the Ship. After collecting the Energy Tank, in the room next, Cpadolf clean the passage and jump, but then there's a eletric cabe in the way down and he does a turn around animation to avoid getting pushed. If you avoid that damage, you can get a damage from the eletric cabe below and get a backward boost, and then in the middle of the boost you quickly cancel it in the right position to shoot the breakeable cabe to reach the bottom of the room. After this room is the one with spiked moving platforms and water, and lots of spikes in the ground, and it will lead to the mainstreet WS room.
Edit: Ok, watching again i realized you can use the grapple to inflict damage on Samus even if she is invulnerable, right? So you can still use the turn around animation in the eletric cabe and still use the grapple to inflict damage on Samus in the cabe below, so you use the Backward Boost to reach the breackeable block, shoot it and fall to the bottom.
Edit 2: this Is a .smv of the room I'm talking about with the damage boost, realtime made. It was found by SnUfFiT86 and posted in m2k2 forum. To make this .smv SnUfFiT86 used snes9x 1.53.
Edit 3: Btw, can't really ice beam be picked up when heading to Wrecked Ship? I know you would have to backtrack to that area to go for the Tower missile, and maybe entering the pause menu, but it would enable the option to visit Crocomire's area later, maybe even after beating Ridley, making it faster by the use of Spazer, Space Jump and Spring Ball. The Ice beam would, of course, be used to glitch through the ceiling when going for the Spring Ball.
Edit 4 (I hope so): After Phantoon, there's the rooms with the robots and then comes the main room and Samus is on her way to the First Super Missile pack on the right... Isn't it possible to shoot a slow beam, run armpumping to catch the beam and mockball in a speed that the door opens?
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Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Edit 2: this Is a .smv of the room I'm talking about with the damage boost, realtime made. It was found by SnUfFiT86 and posted in m2k2 forum. To make this .smv SnUfFiT86 used snes9x 1.53.
Edit 3: Btw, can't really ice beam be picked up when heading to Wrecked Ship? I know you would have to backtrack to that area to go for the Tower missile, and maybe entering the pause menu, but it would enable the option to visit Crocomire's area later, maybe even after beating Ridley, making it faster by the use of Spazer, Space Jump and Spring Ball. The Ice beam would, of course, be used to glitch through the ceiling when going for the Spring Ball.
Edit 4 (I hope so): After Phantoon, there's the rooms with the robots and then comes the main room and Samus is on her way to the First Super Missile pack on the right... Isn't it possible to shoot a slow beam, run armpumping to catch the beam and mockball in a speed that the door opens?
Actually my brother got that idea from Kriole's You-Tube Video, thanks for that BTW!!! That areas annoying on console to be consistently fast. I'm sad you took the video off your channel though, its a good thing my brother downloaded it!!!!!!
Well I think that would be slower to grab Ice earlier and fight Crocamire later because of the Grapple Beam abuse in the Wrecked Ship and Maridia.
That's an interesting idea!!! Though I'm sure they probably tested that before.
I'm really curious to know if Ridley causes a Blue Suit now after he grabs you. I'm also curious to know so I'll ask. What would a Shine Spark do to him?
And in regards to the landing site spark, that is something to consider, but I bet CP had tested that in his run. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I don't remember if I tested it or not when I made the run, but I think I did. Anyway, tested it again. At best it's somewhere between equally fast and a few frames slower, at the cost of more energy. But it seems like you can't even get a good enough angle to hit the edge of the wall with the diagonal shinespark, which means it goes all the way up to the "roof" instead, making it significantly slower.
As for the final missile that is picked up in crateria, there is not enough room for a blueball there instead of a PB.
Joined: 11/14/2005
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Eye Of The Beholder:
I see now what you were talking about for that damage boost. It looks like it may save time indeed. Made faster by the grapple beam if needed.
In the robot room after phantoon, there is no way to shoot a beam and catch up to it in time to have the door open, unfortunately :/
The ice beam would save so little time throughout the run, that it would not be worth the backtrack to collect it early. Getting the grapple early is a must though, so there wouldn't be the benefit of doing croc later either.
The ice beam would save so little time throughout the run, that it would not be worth the backtrack to collect it early. Getting the grapple early is a must though, so there wouldn't be the benefit of doing croc later either.
I see. Thinking about what forensics said and watching the run again i see that the grapple has much more potential, and the ice beam doesn't help much when you have to clean some areas. Thanks!
Joined: 11/26/2010
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So Hero who is working with you on the 100% project so far? I assume Taco, Kriole and yourself are sticking together working on the 100%!?
Also I think it would be nice to see early Wave Beam because its kind of refreshing to see a slight route change. I'm not sure if the good will out weigh the bad because Cpadolf's entry to the Wave Beam as well as the exit is really fast. A lot will have to be tested to see if early Wave will be justifiable that's for sure.
Also if you get early Wave would that also mean delaying Spazer? If so that would another interesting route change if early Wave proves to be faster.
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I am not necessarily starting up a new 100%. I just want to get some conversation going as to what the best route may be, when a new run is started.
If the wave beam is collected early, then yes, spazer would be collected at the very end of the run. When switching the screw attack off in tourian, is the time when the spazer would be turned off and the plasma turned back on.
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Man that sucks. :( I was hoping you guys would start on the 100% but, talking about it is a good start.
Yea I would think after Phantoon would be the best time to pick up the Spazer. Anyway I don't think early Wave would be faster, but again that still needs to be tested.
Also is it possible to hit Phantoon with Missiles after a Power Wave Combo?
Joined: 11/14/2005
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I'll try to test it, but I think he vanishes immediately if you use something greater than missiles on him. If it did work, that would save about 120 frames right there, as well as 12 missiles.
I'll try to test it, but I think he vanishes immediately if you use something greater than missiles on him. If it did work, that would save about 120 frames right there, as well as 12 missiles.
Well, i asure you Phantoon doesn't desapear right after all particles hit him, but there's not much time for you to hit him again. I managed to hit him with one missile (or super missile) right after the Wave Beam Combo some time ago when i was making a phantoon two rounds with two power wave shield video for youtube, but the problem was that i had to be very close to him. The big problem is that you can only shoot a missile once all particles despear and they'll desapear once they touch Phantoon's body. After that there's just some frames to hit Phantoon and depending on how far you are from Phantoon, the missile may not reach him in time. The only way i see this working is if you manipulate the particles to touch Phantoon the way you guys did to Crocomire, and right before the particles reach him, you'll have to be running or jumping fast enough to give the missile speed to connect to him from far, so you can do something like stop on a dime and keep firering the last missiles and super while stutter walking in his direction. Well, again, i may be saying bullshit here.
Here is one .smv showing Samus hitting Phantoon with a Super Missile after the Power Wave Combo. Recorded with Snes9x 1.43 v17.
The routine that generates the new random number: NewRandom = 5 x Randomlow byte + 5 x Randomhigh byte + 18.
This doesn't seem quite right - the formula as written above can never have a larger result than $210, while actual random numbers in the game use the whole range up to $ffff. What works for me is this:
function get_rng(old) return AND(old*5+0x111,0xffff) end
P.JBoy wrote:
First: the routine subtracts the sum of the chances of supers and bombs from 0xFF; and sums the chances for energy, nothing and missiles; and calculates the former divide the latter. The routines then multiplies the chance of small energy by this fraction and checks if it's greater than the 'target', making the enemy drop it if it is; if it's not, it multiplies the (original) fraction by the chance of big energy, making the enemy drop it if it exceeds the 'target'; then with nothing, and finally missiles.
It actually divides? That will throw away a lot of precision, and is not necessary, since one can rewrite the operation with multiplications instead. But the way the rounding is done is important, so if it really uses division, a lua script should do so too. What would help a lot is if you had disassembly of what the game does.[/quote]
Joined: 3/25/2006
Posts: 850
Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!
Oh dear, I see where I went wrong.
In that case: NewRandomlow = 5 x Randomlow + 17, NewRandomhigh = (5 x Randomhigh)low + 1
Here's the RNG routine:
EDIT: code-spoilers didn't work
http://codepad.org/tuBSLYKP
And the enemy drop routine
http://codepad.org/M108BH1q
Hero, regarding that same room i sugested the damage boost, i did a poor test just to see if it was faster or not and it was around 25/30 frames faster using the grapple, but you guys could probably make it faster. Also, after the damage boost and after shooting down (grapple can be used for that), if you shoot the grapple up from the very ledge you're falling, it's possible to reach the cable right above Samus and maybe get a damage that alow Samus to land next to the door. The problem is you would loose too much health in this room, also, maybe this last damage doesn't even work cause you would have to quickly turn around in mid air after destroying the block to have Samus facing right for the damage to the left. Another problem would be (i don't even know if this is possible) to manipulate the sparks in the cable, because in my test when i shot up the grapple was not connecting because the spark was not there. Anyway, maybe this last damage boost is not even possible or would not save time.
In that case: NewRandomlow = 5 x Randomlow + 17, NewRandomhigh = (5 x Randomhigh)low + 1
Here's the RNG routine:
EDIT: code-spoilers didn't work
http://codepad.org/tuBSLYKP
Thanks. Reading the code, I see that what is actually done is tmplow = 5*Randomlow, tmphigh = 5*Randomhigh + 1 + (5*Randomlow)high, NewRandom = tmp + 17. Which is exactly equivalent to what I originally wrote: NewRandom = 5*Random + 0x111 (which isn't that strange, since I tested my version on 20-30 numbers).
P.JBoy wrote:
Joined: 3/25/2006
Posts: 850
Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!
amaurea wrote:
Which is exactly equivalent to what I originally wrote: NewRandom = 5*Random + 0x111
I don't think I'd have been able to simplify it to that, good to know you were right ^_^
amaurea wrote:
Did you disassemble this now, or is there a collection of these available somewhere?
A bit of both. Kejardon's website has a hell of a lot of info on Super Metroid's inner workings; I looked through the RandomRoutines.txt for the enemy drop routine and disassembled (well, see further) from that address.
I played through the whole game recently without doing any game-breaking glitches while running a trace with the snes9x debugger; that had the whole of the routine conveniently disassembled, then I just added some comments.
Am I allowed to presume you're well versed with SNES assembly by the way?
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Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Hero, regarding that same room i sugested the damage boost, i did a poor test just to see if it was faster or not and it was around 25/30 frames faster using the grapple, but you guys could probably make it faster. Also, after the damage boost and after shooting down (grapple can be used for that), if you shoot the grapple up from the very ledge you're falling, it's possible to reach the cable right above Samus and maybe get a damage that alow Samus to land next to the door. The problem is you would loose too much health in this room, also, maybe this last damage doesn't even work cause you would have to quickly turn around in mid air after destroying the block to have Samus facing right for the damage to the left. Another problem would be (i don't even know if this is possible) to manipulate the sparks in the cable, because in my test when i shot up the grapple was not connecting because the spark was not there. Anyway, maybe this last damage boost is not even possible or would not save time.
Glad to hear that it's that much faster. I also tried the 2nd damage boost you mentioned, but like you said, Samus is facing the wrong direction for this to work properly. Health won't be an issue, as in a new run the WS attic will use the grapple technique to reach the crateria missile pack instead of the shinespark method.
Another plus of having the charge beam early:
This allows us to do the PB combo/early shinespark cancel technique. In order to use this technique, you must first do a shinespark in a room, with any PB combo being active at the same time. This then overloads the sprites on the screen, so that the NEXT time you do a shinespark in the SAME room, the animation sequence will be 40 frames shorter. There is only one spot in this entire run, where 2 shinesparks will be done in the same room. It is the shinespark to the gravity chozo statue, followed by the shinespark up to the WS reserve tank.
If only we had a way of doing this technique without having to do 2 shinesparks, it would save massive time.
