Merry Christmas TASVideos! This is our improvement of 1367 frames, or ~22 seconds over the previous run.

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: Snes9x 1.43 v17
  • Aims for fastest time
  • Abuses programming errors
  • Uses death to save time

Comments

This run has taken us a few months and we found many more improvements than we initially thought was possible. If you wish to enjoy the movie to the fullest we suggest you watch before reading ahead.

New Tricks

Chuck-Eat Glitch
This glitch was discovered by nathanisbored. The glitch abused the fact that chucks erroneously have the "Give Power-Up when eaten by Yoshi" bit set. Watching sprite table $7E:167A shows this. Thus, when we eat a chuck, we get something strange in our reserve box or a crash. When we eat a Clappin' Chuck as Fire Mario, it produces a goal sphere in reserve. Other chucks with other power-up statuses give other strange results but these aren't relevant.

Level comments

Level comments in (brackets) are over our previous smv, which is for the same submission but replaced 07/01/12 (dd/mm/yy)

Yoshi's Island 2 (4)

ISM suggested an idea of losing subpixels in order to perform additional corner boosts in this level. These are lost early in the level when 6/5ing. We perform 2 additional corner boosts. Then it became clear that performing one more boost would cause the goal to spawn a frame earlier; we managed a corner clip on a pipe near the end, which is set up via the corner boosts.
Lag is reduced at the goal too, by landing further to the left it seems. Lag is temperamental in this area.

Yoshi's Island 3 (27)

Many frames are saved on the duplications due to PangaeaPanga. Improvement of the sky level is taken from ISM's 96-exit wip.

Yoshi's Island 1 (-2559)

For information on the Item Swap glitch, please see the previous movie's comments.
Many optimization improvements occurred in this level. The aim of yi1 is to eat the Clappin' Chuck as fire mario by using the item-swap glitch; this yields a Goal Point Question Sphere, sprite 4A. We have two strategies to perform this. The first one (smv) is to collect a sprite coin from Jumping Piranha Plant while it is on Yoshi's tongue. We burn the Piranha Plant with Yoshi flames from the red shell near the midpoint. We turn the Piranha Plant into a coin, then collect it while it is on Yoshi's tongue. This triggers an item-swap. This strategy might be thought to be very fast, but because of bad placement of the Piranha Plant and the Clappin' Chuck, it costs a lot of time to die. The second one, which we've chosen in our run, is to fill sprite slots by dropping four resereved powerups and then use the fifth reserved powerup to item-swap. This strategy has an advantage, that we can die with no cost of time, but it costs a little time to collect powerups and we also had to R-Scroll.
(Until recently, these strategies matched after heavy optimization. But thanks to insight from regnum0nline (Dawn), 8 frames were gained for the latter strategy. This idea involved 49 hopping most of the way.)

Yoshi's Island 4 (-2559)

No change.

Iggy's Castle (1287)

The large portion of the improvement in this run happens here. The Goal Point Question Sphere we acquired from Yoshi's Island 1 is used.

Donut Plains 1 (1287)

No change.

Donut Secret 1 (1291)

Just before the first pipe entry, speed oscillation is changed from 17¨15 to 17¨16, which saves a subpixel and hence a frame. In addition, this enables us to beat the frame rule of sprite interaction so we can hit the red koopa a few pixels further to the right as it is unnecessary to slow down and it saves another frame.
To reduce key entry lag, we hit the sleeping fish to the left, with no loss of time thanks to the timing of cape spin.
(A frame is lost due to level transition lag.)

Donut Secret House (1290)

(A frame is lost due to level transition lag.)

Star Warp (1292)

We beat the frame rule of star warp and gain 4 frames on previous movie.
Related addresses:
  • $7E0013: In-Game Frame Counter
  • $7E1F19: Mario's Y Position in OW (2 bytes)
  • $7E1DF7: Star Warp speed
  • $7E1DF8: Star Warp Rotating Timer
OW transition starts as soon as $7E1F19 hits a certain value or less, and warp speed increments depending on the in-game frame counter, or more precisely, it increments when the value of the counter modulo 8 equals 1. So the star warp has a frame rule whose cycle is 8 frames long. Due to its strange behaviour, beating just a half of its cycle may save a frame , and hence the other half 7 frames.

Star World 1 (1296)

New optimization idea of smashola saves 4 frames. This gives us glitchy colours in this level, also.
(A frame is lost from level transition lag.)
Delaying key entry by 2 frames may remove 2 frames of lag.

Star World 2 (1296)

No change.
Delaying key entry by 4 frames may remove 2 frames of lag.

Star World 3 (1296)

No change.

Star World 4 (1302)

By platform boosting at the beginning, we gain some subpixels allowing us to corner clip once more. This saves us a frame. At the keyhole we reduce lag.
(A frame is gained from level transition lag.)
Delaying key entry by 3 frames may remove 2 frames of lag.

Star Warp (1302)

We managed to beat just the whole cycle of the frame rule, which means no time is lost due to the frame rule. If this was not the case, we could sacrifice a few in-game frames, in such a way we would end up losing no time after star warp, to remove lag frames. We were previously on this plan, but the new sw4 improvement finally enabled us to beat the frame rule and this old plan became useless.

Bowser (1367)

A new innovative method involving manipulating Bowser phases allows us to end input much earlier. We can reset a long counter during a phase by hitting Bowser at an appropriate time. For example in the second phase, by hitting Bowser as he begins his routine to drop a Big Steelie, we can avoid this and instead have him throw Mechakoopas on next round. Addresses 7E14B0-7E14B9 are important in this.
The credits would never be triggered by goal spheres being used at any places of Bowsers Castle. It only puts Mario to the overworld.

Thanks

  • Mister thanks #TASers and pirohiko
  • #tasvideos
  • amaurea and gocha for their helpful Lua scripts
  • nathanisbored for finding Chuck-Eat glitch
  • ISM for some ideas used in this run
Thanks for your patience while we worked on this! Enjoy.

Translation into Japanese - 対訳

メリークリスマス!前記録から1367フレーム、およそ23秒の更新です。
この対訳は Mister (Mr.) によるものです。ところどころ私の主観が入っています。

仕様

  • 使用したエミュレータ:Snes9x 1.43 v17
  • 最速を目指す
  • プログラムエラーを悪用する
  • 時間短縮のための死亡を許す

コメント

この動画を製作するにあたって数ヶ月を費やすこととなりましたが、当初想定していたよりもはるかに多くの更新点が見つかりました。この動画を最大限に楽しみたい場合には、先に動画を見てから続きを読むことをお勧めします。

新テクニック

ブル食べバグ
このバグは nathanisbored によって発見されました。このバグは「ヨッシーがブルを食べるとパワーアップとして認識される」という(誤って設定されたであろう)仕様を利用したものです。本来食べることのできないブルを口寄せバグ等によって食べると、マリオのパワーアップ状態が変化したり、本来想定されていないストックアイテムが得られたりします。この動画では、ファイアマリオで手拍子ブルを食べることで、ゴール玉(ラムネ海溝の沈没船のゴール)をストックしています。

各コースのコメント

括弧の中の数字は前記録との差を示しています。ルート変更が著しいため、ヨースター島コース1からイギーの城まではあまり参考になりません。

ヨースター島コース2 (4)

ISM のアイディアをもとにした二つの変更点があります。ひとつは、ゴール口寄せ直前での挙動の最適化、もうひとつは、コーナーブースト等を可能にするために数サブピクセルを犠牲にするというものです。ISM によると「コーナーブーストを2回追加することはできても、ゴールを1フレーム早く出現させるには1サブピクセルだけ足りない」とのことだったので、更に数サブピクセルの犠牲を払い、土管での角抜けを1回追加し、1フレームの短縮につなげました。ヨッシーが居ればこのタイプの角抜けが出来るというのは、この時点ではまだ誰も知らなかったようです(もちろん私も)。

ヨースター島コース3 (27)

PangaeaPanga の妥協のない最適化によって、ブロック増殖部分が大幅に短縮されました。今回はヨースター島コース1でヨッシーを使うため、ここで捨てずに持ち越します。翼を取ったあとの空の面では、ISM の全クリ TAS を参考にしています。

ヨースター島コース1 (-2559)

アイテム入れ替えバグ(または口寄せ)については前記録のコメントを参照してください。
この面での目的は、ファイアマリオになり、ゴール手前に配置されている手拍子ブルをヨッシーで食べることです。ブルを食べることはできないので口寄せバグを使うのですが、これを実行するための作戦として、以下の二つが考えられます。まずひとつ目は、スプライトコインを用いた口寄せを使う方法です。まずコースなかほどに設置されている赤甲羅を使い、ブル手前のPパックンをスプライトコインに変えます。そのコインを舌で捕らえ、舌の上のあるうちにコインを取ります。すると舌の上にコインと同じスプライトインデックスを持った無が一時的に生成され、そのインデックスにブルが出現するようにすると、ブルが舌の上にワープして口寄せ成功です。この方法はRスクロールを必要としない分、後述するふたつ目の方法よりもずいぶんと速いように思えますが、手拍子ブルとPパックンの配置が悪く、死ぬために大きく時間をロスしてしまいます。
次にふたつ目の方法です。口寄せそのものに使われるテクニックは、ストックアイテムの二個食いです。これはヨッシーが舌でストックアイテムを捕らえるのと同時に、体当たりでストックアイテムを取ってしまうというもので、この方法でも上と同様にして舌の上に一時的に無が生成されます。ここで生成される無のスプライトインデックスは、ストックアイテムと同じものです。スプライトのインデックスは0番から11番までの12個あり、ストックアイテムやブロックから出るアイテムは、空いているインデックスのうちで一番大きいインデックスに出現します。これに対してヨースター島コース1では、ブルや通常の敵は0番から7番のインデックスにしか出現することができないので、口寄せを行うためにはストックを7番以下に出現させなければなりません。ストックから出現するキノコやファイアフラワーは画面外に出ても消えないという性質を持っていて、したがってストックを4つ落とすことで、インデックス8番から11番を埋める事ができます。このためにはストックが合計で5つ必要になる計算ですが、この面に配置されているパワーアップアイテムは羽つきブロックの中のファイアフラワー、草陰のキノコ、コース終盤にあるはてなブロックの中のファイアフラワー、の3つです。草陰のキノコのみ、ブロックから出るアイテムではないため、二個食いで増殖することができますが、それでもまだストックは4つ分しかありません。ここで赤甲羅の上のブロックにある1UPキノコを利用します。もちろん1UPをそのまま取ってもストックを増やすことはできませんが、ストックを二個食い増殖するのに使うことができます。この動画では、この地点までに既に2つストックを落としているので、10番と11番のインデックスが埋まっている状態です。この状態では、ストックは9番に出現することになります。そのストックを二個食いすると、ストックにキノコが得られ、舌の上にはインデックス9番の無が生成されます。この無をそのまま食べるとキノコとして扱われるのですが、ストックに入った1個目のキノコを落としてからでなければ増殖に成功したことになりません。しかし、このストックのキノコはインデックス9番に落ちてくるので、口寄せによって舌の上にワープしてしまいます。そこで、1UPキノコをあらかじめ9番に出現させ、この1UPキノコが消える直前にストックキノコを出すと、このキノコは8番に現れます。そして1UPキノコが消えて9番が空いたあとに、キノコを二個食いしてストックを落とすと、無が8番、ストックが9番となって口寄せは起こらず、無を食べることができ、結果としてストックを増殖したことになります。この手法は最後のファイアフラワーでも使われています。
検証の結果、このふたつの方法はまったく同じ速さになると思われていましたが、regnum0nline (Dawn) の最適化案により、ふたつ目の方法が8フレーム速くなると結論付けられました。彼のアイディアは草陰のキノコ以降慣性移動するというものです。
ヨースター島コース1でゴールすると、ゴール後の長いデモが流れ、マップ画面ではマリオがかっぱ山黄色スイッチまで歩いていってしまうため、大きく時間をロスしてしまいます。これを回避するために、ゴール玉をストックしたら即座に角抜けで死亡しています。死亡によってヨッシーを失ってしまうので、ヨッシーが必要になるヨースター島コース3を先にクリアし、そのあとヨースター島コース1に戻るというルートを取っています。

ヨースター島コース4 (-2559)

変更点はありません。

ヨースター島の城 (1287)

ヨースター島コース1で取得したゴール玉を使いゴールします。強制スクロール部分と、卵救出&城破壊デモをスキップすることができ、大きな更新につながりました。

ドーナツ平野コース1 (1287)

変更点はありません。

ドーナツ平野秘密のコース1 (1290)

最初の土管に入る直前に、1/1を一瞬だけ解除して1フレームの短縮。スプライトの当たり判定は2フレームに一度しか行われないため、先の1フレームの更新により赤パタパタを1フレーム分近くで叩くことができ、更に1フレーム短縮。鍵穴エフェクトのラグを軽減するため、グースカを左側にはじきました。これによる数ピクセルのロスがありますが、マントアタックの周期の関係で、そのロスがなくとも鍵ブロックを叩くことのできるタイミングは同じため、結果としてロスはありません。前記録では、ラグを軽減するために鍵の挿入を1フレーム遅らせていましたが、今回はそれを回避して1フレームの短縮。さらに鍵穴エフェクトのラグを1フレーム軽減、ゴール後のマップ読み込みラグで1フレームロス。
マリオの呼吸による気泡は拡張スプライトになっていて、これももちろんラグの増加の一因となりえます。この気泡は128フレーム周期で発生し、また真ん中の64フレーム目で特定のキー入力が行われていると、追加で気泡が発生します。つまり、周期の真ん中の気泡は入力を避けることで、発生しないようにできるということです。今回の動画では気泡調整でラグを軽減することはできませんでしたが、スコアが100050の場合には、気泡を一つ減らすことでラグを完全になくして2フレーム短縮することができます。

ドーナツ平野の隠れ屋敷 (1289)

スコア調整のためにクルクルブロックを壊して50点を取得しました。ロスなく50点を取れるのはここだけです。また、アトミックテレサを倒したあとのマップ読み込みで1フレームロスしています。

スターワープ (1292)

スターワープのフレームルールを破って3フレーム更新しました。スターワープには以下のメモリアドレスが関係しています。
  • $7E0013:ゲーム内フレームカウンタ
  • $7E1F19:マップ画面でのマリオのY座標
  • $7E1DF7:スターワープ時のマリオの速度
  • $7E1Df8:スターワープ時のマリオの回転タイマー
ワープによるマップ移動は $7E1F19 が特定の値以下になったときに始まります。また、ワープ速度はゲーム内フレームカウンタに依存して1から4まで増加します。より正確には、カウンタの値を8で割った余りが1のとき、ワープ速度が増加します。つまりスターワープは8フレーム周期のフレームルールを持っていることになります。一方でスターワープは少し変わった挙動をするので、周期のちょうど半分、4フレームだけ短縮した場合、ワープ後の更新量は1フレームあるいは7フレームとなります。1フレームの場合は更に4フレーム短縮すると残りの7フレームが更新されます。逆もまたしかりです。

ネイティブスターコース1 (1296)

前記録ではマリオの押し出し判定のフレームルールが合わず、このコースに入るのを1フレーム遅らせていましたが、今回はそれを回避することができました。コース内では smashola の新最適化案により、4フレーム短縮しています。また、クリア後のマップ読み込みで1フレームロスしています。
注意として、今回は適用していませんが、鍵の挿入を2フレーム遅らせるとラグが2フレーム減ります。

ネイティブスターコース2 (1296)

変更点はありません。ここも鍵の挿入を4フレーム遅らせることでラグを2フレーム減らすことができます。

ネイティブスターコース3 (1296)

変更点はありません。

ネイティブスターコース4 (1301)

コース内に入るときのマップ読み込みで1フレーム更新。bahamete によるリフト加速のアイディアに、改良型角抜けを追加することで1フレーム短縮。リフト加速のみや、通常の角抜けを追加するだけでは、次の角抜けにつながらず、短縮には至りませんでした。改良型角抜けとは、角抜け中に数サブピクセル犠牲にすることで、ブースト回数を増やし、結果的に通常の角抜けよりも数サブピクセル分のアドバンテージを得るための方法です。また、鍵の挿し込みを最適化して2フレーム短縮し、鍵穴エフェクトのラグも1フレーム軽減しています。
ここでも鍵の挿入を3フレーム遅らせることで、ラグを2フレーム軽減することができます。

スターワープ (1302)

スターワープのフレームルールの周期をちょうど破ったため、フレームルールによるロスは一切ありません(つまり1フレームでも遅れるとフレームルールで7フレーム遅くなります)。
ネイティブスターコース4のリフト加速による更新が見つかるまでは、フレームルールを破るには1フレームだけ足りませんでした。そこで、鍵の挿入をネイティブスターコース2で4フレーム、コース4で2フレーム遅らせることで、ラグを4フレーム軽減していました。一見遅くなっているように見えますが、6フレーム遅らせた分は、フレームルールのおかげで1フレームのロスに丸め込まれているので、トータルでは3フレームの短縮となります。ラグフレームではゲーム内フレームカウンタは増加しないので、ラグフレームの増減はフレームルールに影響しないというのが重要なポイントです。このように、フレームルールを利用して、ゲーム内フレームとラグフレームをトレードするというアイディアもあります。この記録が更新されるときにはきっと参考になると思います。

クッパ城入り口 (1367)

クッパの行動パターンを調整するという革新的なアイディアにより、キー入力の終了を大幅に早めることができました。クッパの行動パターンはあるタイマーで制御されていて、適切なタイミングでクッパにダメージを与えると、そのタイマーを強制的に特定の値にリセットすることができます。つまり、長い行動パターンの先頭でダメージを与えることで、クッパの時間を削り取ることができるということです。そのために1巡目でメカクッパを余分に出させて1体を持ち越し(444フレームのロス)、2巡目では2つ目の鉄球を投げるモーションに入った瞬間にメカクッパを当て(240フレームリカバリ)、3巡目の開始と同時にメカクッパを当てています(196フレームリカバリ)。この時点ではまだ8フレームロスしている計算ですが、ダメージ1発分のアドバンテージがあるため、実際には短縮に成功しています。また、そのアドバンテージにより、クッパ上空で入力を終えられるようになりました。完全にテンプレ化していたクッパ戦の見た目を大きく変えることができたので、今回の更新案はとても気に入っています。
ゴール玉をクッパ城のどの部分(クッパ戦を含む)で使っても、マップ画面に戻されるだけで、エンディングへと行くことは出来ません。

DarkKobold: Judging.

DarkKobold: This run will obsolete the current any%. We will not be changing the branch name.
DarkKobold:Delaying submission while the authors improve the movie. And you only thought it happened to Mario in 3 dimensions.

DarkKobold: Verified and replaced, setting back to accepted. Nice new bowser fight. This run will obsolete the current any%. We will not be changing the branch name.
ledauphinbenoit:Processing...


Active player (264)
Joined: 4/15/2010
Posts: 198
Location: England
Ehh? I could have sworn that the SML2 run got a new category. Wow good one me >.< Anyway while it sounds incredibly selfish, I asked DarkKobold about halfway through this run if the new glitch would warrant a new category or not. If he said no, we would have quit this run (or at least, I would have). I believe that the runs are different enough to warrant a new category but it's entirely subjective. That's why I asked DarkKobold instead of just hoping for the best outcome. So whether you're proved "right" or not isn't even a factor here, because there needs to be some kind of authority on this - arbitrary or otherwise. :p
Retired smw-96, smw any%
Personman
Other
Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
Slowking wrote:
In summary: This here should be called "no game ending glitch" or "beats bowser" and the new one should just be called "any%"
This. In other news, I voted yes on this run and enjoyed watching it very much.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Joined: 4/3/2005
Posts: 575
Location: Spain
"Skips game" sounds like a great tag name that defines these kind of runs quite well.
No.
Glitcher
He/Him
Joined: 3/24/2007
Posts: 216
Location: London, U.K.
kaizoman666 wrote:
Glitcher wrote:
You're just proving my point. That SML2 run isn't in a new category, it's the only SML2 run that's been published!
Excuse me? It doesn't mean there can't be two categories. (points at here and here)
Yeah? Take a look at Chrono Trigger then. The current run obsoleted the previous one by using severe memeory corruption to shave four hours off the game. Why then wasn't it put into a separate category? I think a separate "beats Bowser" category for this run is absurd. This TAS and a credits glitch TAS both constitute an any% run, and the credits glitch TAS is clearly shorter.
BigBoct
He/Him
Editor, Former player
Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH
Chrono Trigger's any% being obsoleted by the glitched run was because the any% was extremely out-of-date, which is clearly not the case with SMW. (Except for maybe the 96-exit run, but that's not relevant here.)
Previous Name: boct1584
Player (173)
Joined: 12/28/2007
Posts: 235
Location: Japan, Sapporo
Glitcher wrote:
kaizoman666 wrote:
Glitcher wrote:
You're just proving my point. That SML2 run isn't in a new category, it's the only SML2 run that's been published!
Excuse me? It doesn't mean there can't be two categories. (points at here and here)
Yeah? Take a look at Chrono Trigger then. The current run obsoleted the previous one by using severe memeory corruption to shave four hours off the game. Why then wasn't it put into a separate category? I think a separate "beats Bowser" category for this run is absurd. This TAS and a credits glitch TAS both constitute an any% run, and the credits glitch TAS is clearly shorter.
Apparently, your discussion is somewhat irrelevant. You guys should say "there's no such example, and therefore this shouldn't be such as well" instead of "there're such examples, and therefore this should be such, too." Only a few examples never justify their correctness. Anyway, in my opinion, if this run can fall into another category than the credits glitch, it may be due to "beating bowser" or "not using null-spit" either of which may distinguish the non-credits-glitched from the credits-glitched. There's no strict standard yet which treats memory-corruption type runs, so we need more careful discussion about it, I'm just hoping. By the way, an 8-frame improvement of yi1 was hinted today or yesterday (by Dawn IIRC), so we're putting it into our run and going to have the movie replaced. It'll take us a day or two at least, or more if we encounter some score planning issue. Hex editing was going well up to bowser (and it's going to be a 6-frame improvement), so we have only to redo bowser if there's no other possible score route.
Retired because of that deletion event. Projects (WIP RIP): VIP3 all-exits "almost capeless yoshiless", VIP2 all-exits, TSRP2 "normal run"
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Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 424
Location: UK
First of all, I like the current system of putting runs which skip the majority of the game through extreme glitching in their own category, as the very glitched and less glitched runs are interesting in different ways. I think Chrono Trigger is an excellent example of this: I like the current game-breaking run, but I would also very much like to see one which does not use sram corruption (which I think was being worked on and had lots of new tricks, but was abandoned when the reset glitch was found). I doubt I am alone in thinking this, and Chrono Trigger fans visiting the site for the first time will probably also want to watch both versions. So letting the glitched version obsolete the normal version was a mistake in my opinion, and I hope it isn't repeated with Super Mario World. I don't understand what the people who argue for fewer categories hope to achieve by that. Is the fear that viewers unfamiliar with the site will be confused when they find more than one run for each game? My own reaction when I was new was rather the opposite. If people are worried that the most interesting runs will be buried in a sea of average ones, then doesn't the star system solve that? Categories are not a scarce resource, and sacrificing a good TAS in order to save a category is bad for both the viewers (because the runs they want will not exist) and for TASVideos (TASers will go elsewhere with their runs if we are keep rejecting obviously good TASes). Secondly, about the name of the category (which is much less important): Almost all our TASes are glitchy to some extent. And all whales are big. Still, a phrase like "big whale" is easily understood to mean a "whale which is even bigger than normal". Our "glitched" category name is entirely consistent with this usage, and I know to expect game-breaking glitching that skips most of the game when I see it. It is easy enough to understand for it not be worth it to rename our existing categories.
Joined: 4/3/2005
Posts: 575
Location: Spain
Fewer categories = better. In any competitive environment, when the best categories are already claimed, the people that arrive later start coming up with their own arbitrary goals, with each new one being more stupid than the previous one, and dilluting the meaning of all the others. Here's a real life example of what happens when you allow everyone to come with their own crazy category to get a headline without having to compete with all the others that came beforehand.
No.
BigBoct
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Posts: 1692
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amaurea wrote:
..I would also very much like to see one which does not use sram corruption (which I think was being worked on and had lots of new tricks, but was abandoned when the reset glitch was found).
inichi completed a test-run about an hour faster than Hero of the Day's published run, but declined to submit it for various reasons. It's somewhere in the Chrono Trigger thread.
Previous Name: boct1584
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
boct1584 wrote:
Chrono Trigger's any% being obsoleted by the glitched run was because the any% was extremely out-of-date, which is clearly not the case with SMW. (Except for maybe the 96-exit run, but that's not relevant here.)
I was still against it because this makes it a bit less enticing to go and create a new, non-glitched version. The old run should have stayed up so that someone could obsolete it properly, with a new version that plays by the old rules. The very reason we're talking about this right now is also because obsoleting that run gave people the impression that heavily glitched runs like this one can obsolete more regular playthroughs at all.
Joined: 7/28/2005
Posts: 339
I'm fine with multiple categories that have very different scope. I agree with DrJones in that in a competitive environment, having fewer categories is better, but I think that TAS is more about entertainment than speed. After all, on an individual video basis, "entertainment first, speed second" is the prevailing school of thought, and I don't see why the site on the whole would have a different stance. I don't see the harm in having "glitched", "any%", and "100%" categories, but I do think by obsoleting our current any% in favour of a video that slashes a significant amount of content is a mistake.
Glitcher
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Posts: 216
Location: London, U.K.
amaurea wrote:
Secondly, about the name of the category (which is much less important): Almost all our TASes are glitchy to some extent. And all whales are big. Still, a phrase like "big whale" is easily understood to mean a "whale which is even bigger than normal". Our "glitched" category name is entirely consistent with this usage, and I know to expect game-breaking glitching that skips most of the game when I see it. It is easy enough to understand for it not be worth it to rename our existing categories.
But a "glitched" category is redundant. Almost every run on this site uses glitches in a speed run! It's like if you created a "manipulates luck" category or a "skips bosses" category, or better yet, a "runs through the game" category. Do you see my point? Take the Rockman TAS for example. The player corrupted the memory to end several levels early and skip a large portion of the game. According to your definition, that should be put in a "glitched" category, yet it obsoleted the previous run as usual. All it did was use a new glitch to reach the game ending faster, and a SMW credits glitch TAS does the same thing.
Kles wrote:
I do think by obsoleting our current any% in favour of a video that slashes a significant amount of content is a mistake.
But isn't that exactly what we do on TASvideos? Create runs that "slash a significant amount of content" in order to complete the game quicker? Players zip through walls, skip cutscenes, break sequences and corrupt memory all the time to achieve that objective. Take a look at the new [URL=http://tasvideos.org/forum/t/12212]Kirby speed run[/url], which uses a glitch to trigger the credits and save 30 minutes. Do you believe that should obsolete the previous run or should it be put into yet another category? I agree with DrJones that fewer categories means more competition (lets not kid ourselves, the motivation for completing a game the fastest IS competitive), and I object the recently published "no zips" run for Sonic the Hedgehog, since the player is arbitrarily forgoing a time-saving glitch in order to beat the game slower. It flies in the face of what a 'speed run' is all about!
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>>It flies in the face of what a 'speed run' is all about! Good thing these are superplays, then!
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Do you honestly believe that the credits glitch obsoleting this run will create more competition for the SMW record? Really?
Retired smw-96, smw any%
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This run and the glitched run use two entirely different strategies. I see no reason they shouldn't go in a separate category. Same goes for the Kirby run. Also, your post on that run's discussion was kind of rude. On another note, why do you think not splitting this and the glitched run into two categories won't generate competition? If they're not split, you'll never see another any% using the strategy all the way to Bowser, and the glitched run would hardly be changed at all due to how weird it is to set up. Combining this and the glitched category would remove nearly all competition from SMW's non-100% runs.
YouTube Channel - Twitter Current projects: Sutte Hakkun, Hyper VI, RTDL, own hacking projects
Glitcher
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Joined: 3/24/2007
Posts: 216
Location: London, U.K.
kaizoman666 wrote:
On another note, why do you think not splitting this and the glitched run into two categories won't generate competition? If they're not split, you'll never see another any% using the strategy all the way to Bowser, and the glitched run would hardly be changed at all due to how weird it is to set up. Combining this and the glitched category would remove nearly all competition from SMW's non-100% runs.
bahamete wrote:
Do you honestly believe that the credits glitch obsoleting this run will create more competition for the SMW record? Really?
Only if you believe that every possible time-saving glitch in SMW has already been discovered. Who would have thought that somone would have found a way to trigger the game ending two decades after the game's release? Tomorrow someone may find a new way to do it faster. Who knows? That's where the competition lies.
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kaizoman666 wrote:
This run and the glitched run use two entirely different strategies. I see no reason they shouldn't go in a separate category. Same goes for the Kirby run.
With the new Kirby's Adventure run, as RinKaenbyou pointed out, the current any% and a possible future 100% run would look very similar, and only the new "glitched"/"stone glitch" run would stand out from them. Kirby's Dream Land 2 only has a 100% run because an any% run would be far too similar and give a bad ending. So if someone eventually makes a 100% Kirby's Adventure run, it and the stone glitch run would be the only categories needed to be published. With Super Mario World, the any% and 100% (96-exit and 86-exit small-only) look completely different. But with the credits glitch discovered, there are two any% runs, the "beats Bowser" and "credits glitch", and there isn't a clear way to decide which should be published.
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Joined: 6/17/2006
Posts: 510
Nice glitch! Unfortunately I have to vote No because of the credits glitch run that was just submitted. I just do not see the point for 2 glitched any% runs categories. The same strategies you used could be applied to a glitched 100% run and would be much more interesting and entertaining I believe. By the way, why backtrack all the way to YI1 after beating YI3? Wouldn't it be faster to start with YI1 right away to avoid more walking on the overworld map?
Joined: 12/22/2009
Posts: 291
Location: Michigan
SmashManiac wrote:
I just do not see the point for 2 glitched any% runs categories.
So using any glitch at all constitutes a "glitched" category?
SmashManiac wrote:
By the way, why backtrack all the way to YI1 after beating YI3? Wouldn't it be faster to start with YI1 right away to avoid more walking on the overworld map?
Because you need Yoshi, of which there are none in YI1.
Current projects: Yoshi's Island Disassembly Yoshi's Island any% TAS with Carl Sagan
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Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 424
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Glitcher wrote:
amaurea wrote:
Secondly, about the name of the category (which is much less important): Almost all our TASes are glitchy to some extent. And all whales are big. Still, a phrase like "big whale" is easily understood to mean a "whale which is even bigger than normal". Our "glitched" category name is entirely consistent with this usage, and I know to expect game-breaking glitching that skips most of the game when I see it. It is easy enough to understand for it not be worth it to rename our existing categories.
But a "glitched" category is redundant. Almost every run on this site uses glitches in a speed run! It's like if you created a "manipulates luck" category or a "skips bosses" category, or better yet, a "runs through the game" category. Do you see my point?
I addressed this in the exact text you quoted. But I'll try to make it even more explicit, then. What you're saying is equivalent to saying that the term "big whale" is redundant, because all whales are big, so it doesn't add any information. Which isn't true at all - some are bigger than others, and those are the ones we call "big". Similarly, all tases use glitches, but some use more severe glitches than others. We call these runs "glitched" because they are far more glitched than the average. Just imagine that there is a "very" or "extremely" or "even more than normal" in front of the "glitched" in the category name, since that is what is meant.
Glitcher wrote:
Take the Rockman TAS for example. The player corrupted the memory to end several levels early and skip a large portion of the game. According to your definition, that should be put in a "glitched" category, yet it obsoleted the previous run as usual. All it did was use a new glitch to reach the game ending faster, and a SMW credits glitch TAS does the same thing.
The motivation for having a glitched category is to avoid only having runs which skip all the interesting parts of the game. In the case of Rockman, the glitches are definitely severe, but the fraction of the game that is outright skipped is still pretty low.
DrJones wrote:
Fewer categories = better. In any competitive environment, when the best categories are already claimed, the people that arrive later start coming up with their own arbitrary goals, with each new one being more stupid than the previous one, and dilluting the meaning of all the others.
Your argument applies just as well to games as categories. When the most popular games have been claimed, people start looking at less popular games. You don't think this is a problem do you? The quality of the publications is upheld by judging each submission by its own merits, and as long as they are good, the number of published games or categories should not matter. Taking your argument to its logical extreme, we would only allow a single game (Super Mario World) with a single category (any%), since anything else would dilute the competition. Of course, if we did that, we wouldn't get very impressive records even for that game, as people would just do their TASing somewhere less restricted. Having more categories does not have to divide up a fixed amount of effort so that each category gets a smaller part of the share. Instead, I think the total amount of effort will increase with the number of categories, because different categories may appeal to different people, who may then go on to try another category after they have proven themselves in their favorite category. So I don't think we have to worry about too many categories resulting in sloppy runs. As a concrete example, the least popular super metroid category (low%) is probably more optimized than an average single-category game here.
Glitcher
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I addressed this in the exact text you quoted. But I'll try to make it even more explicit, then. What you're saying is equivalent to saying that the term "big whale" is redundant, because all whales are big, so it doesn't add any information. Which isn't true at all - some are bigger than others, and those are the ones we call "big". Similarly, all tases use glitches, but some use more severe glitches than others. We call these runs "glitched" because they are far more glitched than the average. Just imagine that there is a "very" or "extremely" or "even more than normal" in front of the "glitched" in the category name, since that is what is meant. Then why not call the Rockman run "glitched"? Or the Boy and his Blob run, or the Link's Awakening run, or the Pokémon Yellow run? Don't you think these runs are sufficiently corrupted to be called "glitched"? Your big whale example is quite apt, you know. All whales are big, so using a "big" category seems silly when you stop to think about it. Measurements need to be done quantifiably, and using arbitrary categories like "big" or "glitched" leads to all sorts of exceptions.
The motivation for having a glitched category is to avoid only having runs which skip all the interesting parts of the game. In the case of Rockman, the glitches are definitely severe, but the fraction of the game that is outright skipped is still pretty low.
That's even more arbitrary. If you want to stay within the Mario universe, take SM64 for example. There used to be a 16-star run, but a 1-star run soon made short work of that. Now call me crazy, but that run seems to skip just as big a percentage of the previous run as the SMW credits glitch TAS. If I am wrong, why did the 1-star run obsolete the 16-star run instead of being put into a separate category? I refrained on voting on this run until now because I wanted to see the progress of the credits glitch TAS. Now that that's been submitted, I join SmashManiac in giving this run a resounding "No".
Joined: 12/28/2011
Posts: 14
voting no is quite frankly disrepectful to kaizoman666, bahamete, mister, and pangaeapanga for all the hard work they put into redoing a tas that most of them just submitted a few months ago. they started and completed this TAS with the goal of obsoleting the current any%, which they will have done once the new improvement mister found is put in, while the same cannot be said for masterjun, who made his TAS with the hopes of showing off a completely new and gamebreaking glitch and making a new category. great job to all 4 of you as this was a top notch TAS
Joined: 12/22/2009
Posts: 291
Location: Michigan
DJWebb32 wrote:
voting no is quite frankly disrepectful to kaizoman666, bahamete, mister, and pangaeapanga for all the hard work they put into redoing a tas that most of them just submitted a few months ago. they started and completed this TAS with the goal of obsoleting the current any%, which they will have done once the new improvement mister found is put in, while the same cannot be said for masterjun, who made his TAS with the hopes of showing off a completely new and gamebreaking glitch and making a new category. great job to all 4 of you as this was a top notch TAS
Both TASes were exceptionally made and both should be accepted to the site, in my honest opinion.
Current projects: Yoshi's Island Disassembly Yoshi's Island any% TAS with Carl Sagan
Joined: 4/3/2005
Posts: 575
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amaurea wrote:
Your argument applies just as well to games as categories. When the most popular games have been claimed, people start looking at less popular games. You don't think this is a problem do you?
It isn't in this site, because games do get rejected due to "bad game choice", and the site changed the focus from NES games to all platforms because there weren't many interesting NES games left to do.
amaurea wrote:
Taking your argument to its logical extreme, we would only allow a single game (Super Mario World) with a single category (any%), since anything else would dilute the competition. Of course, if we did that, we wouldn't get very impressive records even for that game, as people would just do their TASing somewhere less restricted.
I agree with you here in that there's a point in which reducing categories/games for the sake of doing so becomes detrimental. There's a range of acceptability that doesn't contain either extreme, and the site currently has to deal with the problems on one of the sides, and probably will never have to deal with the other. Note also that "runs" have never been sloppy by the standards of the time they got published. They became sloppy due to later advancements in technology/knowledge of the games. Fixing that "sloppiness" takes a lot of time. Obsoleting the Famtasia runs took three years and a very dedicated TASer, and obsoleting the 2004 movies is also taking a lot. Imagine what would've been if these movies had six categories each instead of 1 or 2, and if it's really worth given how many people has watched the updated "princess only SMB2 run".
No.
ALAKTORN
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Posts: 2527
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amaurea speaks the truth destroying the game to beat it quickly is much different to running through it as fast as possible and they should be 2 different categories, this run does the latter, creditless does the first