Well everyone is wrong some of the time, the main thing is that it isn't obvious which way is faster without more testing and timing. And quite honestly, if ruto bottle turns out to to be faster or only 0-3s slower then I doubt fast slides alone could make up 32s.
What was the time difference between cucco and ruto bottles on the NA version?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I looked over some earlier runs and I believe you are right.
I am unable to do sufficient testing to confirm it though.
Judging by slowkings silence, one would think he agrees.
Or he just hasn't looked in this thread for quite a while. :P
I timed crap. Timing is a little rough, since I used bloobs any% and he doesn't go the route a new run would, but it intersects closely enough so I can extract segments and put them together.
Grunzes WIP got close to the vines in 1:25 from getting control over Link.
From what I can get from bloobs TAS, a run getting the stick would take about 1:15 to get to the vines...
Even if I give you uncertainty bonus of 10 seconds that is only 20 seconds, not 32.
Pretty sure that 20s can be made back with the sword on both possible routes.
My estimtions are usually pretty good. But ofcourse I have been known to be dead wrong and this one could be close...
Not sure if anybody is actually willing to test all this crap. Unless one of the bottles is clearly faster this would mean TASing the child section 4 times.
(- ruto with and without sword
- cucco with and without sword)
edit: Though for ruto bottle getting the stick would mean a money problem. Going down river to the cucco gives you 12r. Even if you take the 5r right before the vines that still leaves you 3 r shy.
And come to think of it ruto bottle would probably lose more than even 32 seconds without the sword.
There are the 2 aqua slides in the river. But then there are also 3 aquaslides that cover quite some distance in ZD.
1. Get up to dive intructor zora
2. Get up to him again, to get the silver scale
3. Get up to king zora after retrieving the letter
(you'd have to save the stick for an aqua slide in lake hylia to make it to the owl in time. So not even one of these slides can be done)
So at least for ruto bottle stick should be out, I think.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
What was the time difference between cucco and ruto bottles on the NA version?
Waaaaaay too much. :D
Though it was never timed with aqua escape.
I can not say for certain that it is faster than cucco botlle using J version and aqua escape. Nor can I say for certain that you can make it to the market before dark. It just hasn't been tested yet.
Going down river to the cucco gives you 12r. Even if you take the 5r right before the vines that still leaves you 3 r shy.
In that video I posted above he gets 18r in the river.
If ruto bottle way also using tons of slides it might not be feasible with stick, but can't you do as many slides as you want for one level with stick using half-broken stick?
You also might have to time which level you want to use the stick for boosting on too.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Forgive me, as perhaps I am just not familiar with timing for this game, but by seconds in the video it looks like he hits the vines about 1:05 after he first gets control (3:10-4:15). Where does the count of 48 seconds come from? Is that your estimation of the time saved in a TAS?
I also only see 16r picked up in Zora's river. Perhaps you meant to link a different video?
He gets control at 3:10 and is at the vines at 4:15. That's 1:05. Granted that is faster than my timing. I should not time that late at night. I did not notice that bloobs TAS has to deal with english text.
On this short stretch TAS could probably gain like an aditional 5s... So that is 0:25 in front of sword. For ruto bottle still not enough. For cucco bottle maybe...
In that video I posted above he gets 18r in the river.
Yeah but he swam the river completely down. If you want ruto bottle you have to get out at the second Octo.
If ruto bottle way also using tons of slides it might not be feasible with stick, but can't you do as many slides as you want for one level with stick using half-broken stick?
Like I said before broken stick vanishes when you go through a loading zone...
You also might have to time which level you want to use the stick for boosting on too.
There isn't really anything to time.
- With ruto bottle you would need at in lake hylia to get to the owl before dark
- With cucco bottle you need it to skip the owl in front of Kakariko
Basically the owl dictates the places. :D
Oh, I was timing from getting control outside the house, because what happens inside the house is the same for both routes so it could only make your timing more inaccurate by including it in case there is a difference in the house.
Is it possible to hit the cuccos without breaking the stick?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
He gets control at 3:10 and is at the vines at 4:15. That's 1:05. Granted that is faster than my timing. I should not time that late at night. I did not notice that bloobs TAS has to deal with english text.
On this short stretch TAS could probably gain like an aditional 5s... So that is 0:25 in front of sword. For ruto bottle still not enough. For cucco bottle maybe...
In that video I posted above he gets 18r in the river.
Yeah but he swam the river completely down. If you want ruto bottle you have to get out at the second Octo.
If ruto bottle way also using tons of slides it might not be feasible with stick, but can't you do as many slides as you want for one level with stick using half-broken stick?
Like I said before broken stick vanishes when you go through a loading zone...
You also might have to time which level you want to use the stick for boosting on too.
There isn't really anything to time.
- With ruto bottle you would need at in lake hylia to get to the owl before dark
- With cucco bottle you need it to skip the owl in front of Kakariko
Basically the owl dictates the places. :D
In danger of appearing like an uneducated retard I will ask my question anyways.
Why is the owl the endtarget of the childsection?
That custscene is fucking gigantic.
+ The Owl is like totally far away at the lake.
I do seem to remeber it being timed slower last time the ruto-bottle was the goto route for any%
Oh, I was timing from getting control outside the house, because what happens inside the house is the same for both routes so it could only make your timing more inaccurate by including it in case there is a difference in the house.
Is it possible to hit the cuccos without breaking the stick?
Doesn't really matter. You wouldn't have the stick anymore, since it breaks for the slide past the owl.
Getting 10r extra for an aditional stick would destroy any time gain.
Your best bet for cucco collecting would be to pick them up and throw them. They will continue running in the direction you threw them.
Synx wrote:
In danger of appearing like an uneducated retard I will ask my question anyways.
Why is the owl the endtarget of the childsection?
That custscene is fucking gigantic.
+ The Owl is like totally far away at the lake.
I do seem to remeber it being timed slower last time the ruto-bottle was the goto route for any%
You reatard, agh! :D
Nah I ask a lot of questions. Often they turn out to be stupid, but somtimes they spawn new ideas. So I always apreciate it when other people do the same.
Basically you can not get to the market before dark otherwise. Last time it was timed you had to wait the night in either case, but times have changed.
The cutscene is not great but also not that bad on the japanese version.
Keep in mind ruto bottle has no chance in hell of being faster on the U version anyway, since king zora won't shut his trap.
Edit:
To elaborate on the time constraint:
Time will run in ZR and LH.
It takes about 30s to get to the chicken. At this point you have 55s left till sundown.
Getting up the river will take longer than going down. 35s?
At this point you have 20s left. That would never be enough to go back down river.
That may not even be enough to get to the owl. That's why I would very much like for somebody to test this route. We might be able to rule it out. Problem is at least the parts were time runs would have to be TASed at very high precision, to be sure. But nobody seems to have any drive to do so...
Edit2:
After you asked I actually thought about just taking the night. So I crunched some numbers and... yeah not going to happen, sadly.
1:25 is just way too much. The only chance we have is if we can get to the owl in time. Otherwise this route is dead. which ofcourse would at least bring us closer to one difinitve route.
Edit3:
Well crap.
My guesstimations show that ruto bottle is always slower. So screw that route.
Now we only have cucco bottle with and without stick as competitors.
Swordless and I talked about it and we both agree that getting the sword is faster.
Getting the stick instead just has too many drawbacks:
- money problems
- less slides
- not being able to slash the cuccos
I also changed the list of what a new tas should do differently. If anybody thinks of something else, please tell us:
- way less rupees because no shield or shop visit even
- Aqua escape instead of bridgeclip
- Savewarp after pond
- first time catching bugs and RBA should be combined after you got Cojiro (throw the stone, do RBA twice [Bombs and Cojiro] while it's in the air)
- Since you do Aqua escape going through goron city after odd mush is probably faster since the hyrule field cutscene would play otherwise
- Pull out odd mush twice to speed up old hag reaction
- Skip trails with a single megaflip from the stairs
Specifically, what slides would you be missing with the stick?
It doesn't have any money issues with the cucco bottle right? And even if it does it only takes an extra 1s to get the rubes above the gate.
And do you think the stick route would benefit more for a RTS instead of TAS? The DoT skip is harder but doing all those slide in a time effective way and the longer forest route is also harder gets slower with a RTS.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
There are 3 in ZR and one from Kak to market.
You do have money problems since the river only gives you 13r but you need 20.
The bridge gives you 60 max, but you need 80 for the shield.
Are there any videos of those slides which could be used to estimate how much they save? And don't you get at least 16r in the river like that video I posted?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Do you mean from kak village to the bridge? surely there's already a video of this one right?
wait what.
Are you skipping dekushield?
As far as I know, ya, it can't be used for SS on this knew route and isn't needed to escape forest.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Do you mean from kak village to the bridge? surely there's already a video of this one right?
Yes in bloobs TAS for example. But it isn't really acurate for the new TAS. You don't have sword and stick, so you can't walk through the owls loading zone. So that means walking around, then doing the aqua slide.
The ones in zora river are 2 superswims and one aquaslide btw.
Synx wrote:
yes it can? And it avoids the neverending cutscene of getting the flute
Do you know what aqua escape is?
Ofcourse we skip the shield. That's the main advantage of aqua escape.
In earlier runs you had to get shield, sword and deku sticks. Now only stick or sword is required.
I'll copy the PM I sent bloob, when I had the idea for this route, back in July, for further explaination:
I had an idea.
If the ruto bottle route with the owl turns out to be impossible, there is another alternative to the current route.
First of all I think the bridge clip and the aqua escape with clip are compareable in terms of how much time they take. So that really doesn't figure into the equation.
The interesting part:
From Grunz's little TAS down river we can see that that takes like 35s. Another jumpslash slide and you are at Kakariko in about 10s. So that's 45s which is compareable to the old peahat way.
It is more if you do consider the HF introduction cutscene, which you probably should since that will play as adault if it hasn't played as child.
Although you could just subsittute the one time you use that exit with going through GC. Probably comes out on top compared to watching that scene.
Anywho the good part about this is: You would never have to buy a shield or deku stick. So no gathering rupees, no going to the shop.
With the 9r you get inadvertently by getting the sword and the 13 you get from the river you also have enough to buy the adault shield when you figure in the 60r from the bridge.
I think that makes more than up for the extra 10-15 seconds HF intro (that are only really lost if you really take the intro as adault, anyway).
So really I think now it's between "doing aqua escape and getting ruto bottle" and "doing aqua escape and getting cucco bottle".
Pretty sure bridge clip is out.
You don't have sword and stick, so you can't walk through the owls loading zone. So that means walking around, then doing the aqua slide.
So couldn't this be the same with stick or sword? Or if there is more than one use on this level to skip owl and aqua slide, could you do the half-broken glitch here and still do the same as with the sword? If so the only difference between the stick and sword cucco bottle routes would be the 3 slides in zoras river, and having to throw cuccos instead of slashing them. Since the stick saves around 24-27s I don't see how you can clearly see the the 3 slides and throwing cuccos instead of slashing them would take over 27s.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I don't understand why you are so convinced about aquaescape.
Some random thoughts:
Aquaescape with sword doesn't utilize the shop in kokiri, nor ISG in lost woods. Both of which benefits from faster text in Jap verson. Also, having both stick and sword helps with the owl like you said.
Ya I'm not sure either, how much does it save to kv on [J]? Aren't there TA videos of this already?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Spider-Waffle could you please stop with broken stick?
I found the usefull ways to make broken stick, so if we could use it I would be the first one to be excited about it.
Like I said already, we would only have one stick and that one stick would be used for the owl skip. After that it's gone, you can not bring it back and you can't take a broken stick through a loading zone.
Regarding aqua escape: I did the freaking math in the post directly above yours. It is always faster, without a doubt.
You might discuss if sword or stick are faster, even so I'm pretty sure sword is, but what escape we use is clearly not up for debate.
Bridge clip is slower with the sword and impossible with the deku stick, since we could never get 50r in a reasonable amount of time, without the sword.
Pokey or aquaslide escape are even slower than bridge clip, even on J.
slowi's right, so stop the discussion right here. we tested this a while ago and aqua escape is clearly superior. it's still debatable if ruto's bottle might be quicker, which probably isn't the case.
so everything left to test is whether sword or deku stick is faster. in order to test this you'd have to do 2 complete TASes of the whole child section, which is the reason why I haven't and probably won't ever time it.
Without a new route for the adult section there won't be a new any% TAS. At least not by me.
Like I said already, we would only have one stick and that one stick would be used for the owl skip. After that it's gone, you can not bring it back and you can't take a broken stick through a loading zone.
I got that, but what I don't get it why can't you use broken stick in the k field level to both skip owl and aqua slide since there's no loading zone you would need to go through.
You wouldn't have to TAS the whole child section, just stick route up to the vines, ZR stick route (no slides), cucco collecting stick route (throwing instead of slashing). Sword route up to the vines has already been TASed, Sword route ZR has already been done, sword route cucco collecting has already been done. And they don't have to perfect either unless they turn out to be less a second apart.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
