Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
Cool. Is it worth it to manipulate the stat wheel at the end of boss fights? Continuously raising Ashley's
STR maybe?
Also, does rotating the camera cost time?
And is it worth it to get any really rare weapon or armor drops?
Sorry for all the questions, but I've wanted to see a TAS of VS for a while.
I am a big fan of this game, but I haven't played it for over ten years. My guess is that yes, the fastest way is to chain bosses to death. If my guess is right, that would mean that the TAS wouldn't show off the game very well. Which would be sad.
It would be cool if this TAS proves me wrong.
It's really a great game though.
Cool. Is it worth it to manipulate the stat wheel at the end of boss fights? Continuously raising Ashley's
STR maybe?
Also, does rotating the camera cost time?
And is it worth it to get any really rare weapon or armor drops?
Sorry for all the questions, but I've wanted to see a TAS of VS for a while.
STR will be manipulated after bosses. rotating the camera doesn't inherently cost time. It's just that it takes a few seconds to rotate and control isn't kept in the same direction you were holding. Every frame the camera moves you have to adjust your direction to stay in a straight line. I really didn't want to have to do that.
What I have done so far can probably be improved by 10 seconds.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1743884206/Vagrant%20Story-1.pjm
Improvements, questions, and comments are welcome.
I honestly don't know how you've been able to make that game runs on PSXjin, I tried everything I could and it doesn't load at all, (even tried to RIP the game myself with the original copy). Sad.
EDIT: There's also audio issues in your video, does it happens when you play the game normally? , like musical footsteps 8-bit sort of sound.
I honestly don't know how you've been able to make that game runs on PSXjin, I tried everything I could and it doesn't load at all, (even tried to RIP the game myself with the original copy). Sad.
EDIT: There's also audio issues in your video, does it happens when you play the game normally? , like musical footsteps 8-bit sort of sound.
The only copy that works is the 715MB one. I tried ripping it myself as well and I came up with some 243MB thing which never loaded. Check out darkkobolds FF8 run, it has the same audio issues.
Very nice, I'm really liking the movement optimization. The box room with the wolf and bat is impressive, it would normally take a bunch of resets to get to the box in time and minimize the bat attacking you (especially when climbing).
Manipulating the stat wheel for STR bonuses early on is most important while the Fandango can actually still deal out decent damage. Later on, MP bonuses become more important because you want to have as much MP as possible when teleporting around so that Mana item use is minimized. Rotating the camera shouldn't cost any time whatsoever...it'd be nice for the TAS to get nice views of the scenery if possible. I can't think of any rare weapon drop that'd be worth equipping since weapon type plays a huge role in damage calculation and enemies' weaknesses vary.
Sorry for the long post, but I'm really excited to see something going on for this game. My run on SDA is seriously outdated; I've found a lot of minor improvements that add up to a lot of time saved since the run was posted. My only questions are: is there any way you can glitch through locked doors? That would substantially cut down a lot of time. Also, is there a way to manipulate the game such that each time an enemy attacks you, it misses? This would negate the need to Impact Guard and save a lot time. I wish I can be of more help in terms of technical stuff but I haven't a clue about any of that.
Edit: Oh yea, I just thought of something pretty useful. Instead of going through the game with the Fandango, you should equip the Magnolia Frau (staff) that Duane drops in Town Center West (probably after the Wyvern fight since its tail is weak to edged weapons). Chaining with staves is faster than 1-h swords.
Very nice, I'm really liking the movement optimization. The box room with the wolf and bat is impressive, it would normally take a bunch of resets to get to the box in time and minimize the bat attacking you (especially when climbing).
Manipulating the stat wheel for STR bonuses early on is most important while the Fandango can actually still deal out decent damage. Later on, MP bonuses become more important because you want to have as much MP as possible when teleporting around so that Mana item use is minimized. Rotating the camera shouldn't cost any time whatsoever...it'd be nice for the TAS to get nice views of the scenery if possible. I can't think of any rare weapon drop that'd be worth equipping since weapon type plays a huge role in damage calculation and enemies' weaknesses vary.
Sorry for the long post, but I'm really excited to see something going on for this game. My run on SDA is seriously outdated; I've found a lot of minor improvements that add up to a lot of time saved since the run was posted. My only questions are: is there any way you can glitch through locked doors? That would substantially cut down a lot of time. Also, is there a way to manipulate the game such that each time an enemy attacks you, it misses? This would negate the need to Impact Guard and save a lot time. I wish I can be of more help in terms of technical stuff but I haven't a clue about any of that.
Edit: Oh yea, I just thought of something pretty useful. Instead of going through the game with the Fandango, you should equip the Magnolia Frau (staff) that Duane drops in Town Center West (probably after the Wyvern fight since its tail is weak to edged weapons). Chaining with staves is faster than 1-h swords.
Hey... I appreciate the post. It gives me some motivation. My first idea was basically to copy your route with TAS precision. As of now I'm doing all luck manipulation manually. Very time consuming. I've been keeping a list of improvements also. I haven't searched for any glitches yet. I'm not much into route planning/glitch finding. I wanted to get some content out to try to get people interested. I'm working on v2 to the first boss. It should be 15 seconds faster. In the meantime let me know if you want to help out with routes/strategies/optimizations. I'm not very familiar with the game.
Camera movement. I need to test this more. Of course I want to show the best angles. Counteracting the camera movement with the analog stick to stay in a straight line might be the hardest part of the run if I decide to do it.
I found I can rotate the camera 1 frame before entering a room to get the best angles! When you enter it's fully rotated. Since movement is relative to camera angle this solves the problem of trying to counteract the 38 frames it takes for the camera to spin around. I started more planning for each room. 272 frames ahead in the first bat room. I didn't kill the enemy or get hit. I'll need input on what camera angle to use for each room.
I'm more serious on manipulating enemy movement. This is a TAS after all. With enough dodging it's probably possible to never get hit in the run. Hiding behind boxes seems to work well so far.
You may want to make a list of what teleports you plan on using, and how much MP they'll cost--that way you know at which point to switch from STR boosting after boss fights to MP boosting. You really don't want to have to use two teleports where one will do, and the STR bonus is probably going to be negligible in boss fights, where it would most matter--especially assuming you're going to count on Raging Ache. For reference, it's 15 MP to teleport to the nearest magic circle, and an additional 4 MP for every location beyond that one. So later in the game you end up needing something like 65-80 MP to make some of the bigger trips...
I don't remember what weapons are convenient enough to pick up that still allow you to do damage. Generally speaking, you do almost no damage to bosses past the beginning of the game unless you've geared properly, and since you won't probably be entering any workshops I imagine Raging Ache/Crimson Pain would be the way to go.
Any idea how easy it is to manipulate critical hits or hit rate? I messed around with this game some in emulator a while back and it seemed like the RNG was moving every frame--should be pretty easy to get the results you want just by using trial and error. Tedious, though.
Hey that's a nice find with the camera movement, I forgot about that but yea that really helps getting the right angle for the next room. I find that orienting the camera so that Ashley is facing up generally makes for the most convenient point of view. But that's just for chaining/defense timing, for a TAS it really shouldn't matter because you're gonna land everything. Glad to hear you're gonna try and avoid everything, it's definitely possible to bypass most of not all enemies under regular conditions as it is. You'll probably just want to sustain just enough damage to have your HP in single digits so as to maximize Raging Ache's power. Boxes and other obstacles can protect you from enemies as you say, including walls. Also, I don't really see how Crimson Pain would work...by the time you have enough battle points for it you can't inflict damage on most bosses/enemies normally. It'll help for places like in the city walls after the Snowfly Forest where you have to clear out a room full of lizards though.
Another thing you may want to look into is going to your menu screen and turning off the information toggle. This makes it so that the information displayed at the bottom of the screen during spells/special attacks doesn't show. I'm not 100% sure but the "charge loading" times seems faster with the info off. I don't think it'll matter since you'll be blowing by everyone but there's no way you can get through Town Center East without someone casting a spell. Something else that can optimize time management...only draw your weapon when you're opening a door and have to wait for it to actually open (when about to face a boss or mandatory fight). Should save a lot of frames over the run.
Also, I don't really see how Crimson Pain would work...by the time you have enough battle points for it you can't inflict damage on most bosses/enemies normally. It'll help for places like in the city walls after the Snowfly Forest where you have to clear out a room full of lizards though.
I guess I didn't remember the order in which battle abilities unlock. I've probably beat this game 20+ times but my memory of it is a little hazy now, even with all that time put in...
I'll probably watch the SDA run again and look at the enemies on the route. It's always possible some enemy item drops can be manipulated to get some decent weaponry, but IIRC most of the good stuff is dropped in optional or new game + only areas.
Also, I don't really see how Crimson Pain would work...by the time you have enough battle points for it you can't inflict damage on most bosses/enemies normally. It'll help for places like in the city walls after the Snowfly Forest where you have to clear out a room full of lizards though.
I guess I didn't remember the order in which battle abilities unlock. I've probably beat this game 20+ times but my memory of it is a little hazy now, even with all that time put in...
I'll probably watch the SDA run again and look at the enemies on the route. It's always possible some enemy item drops can be manipulated to get some decent weaponry, but IIRC most of the good stuff is dropped in optional or new game + only areas.
Let me encode first two bat rooms real quick to show you what I'm talking about for avoiding enemies this time.
Trying to get the exit to the north of the screen makes sense.
Edit: See two posts down for the video.
1st Boss Down
998 frames ahead of old WIP. I finally got the bats stuck on each other in room 11 and was only attacked once.
Now with twice the boss action...
It is possible to get behind the boss early and not be attacked but this is much slower.
Edit: now 70 frames faster. optimized reel movement and chose str+2 over str+3. Took 54 frames for that extra 1str. I'm excited about the run back through the old rooms. I haven't gotten stuck yet.
Nice progress, it's crazy how much you've improved the old wip. From this point on it's gonna be a lot trickier since you have to start collecting Battle Points through chains in the most efficient manner. Raging Ache won't be truly necessary until you get to the Fire Elemental because you should be able to manipulate nice base damage on each boss before then. But that's a little too far off--still gotta get through the Catacombs first which should be easy enough (avoiding the enemies after the initial run through the Wine Cellar is a lot easier, stupid bats). I'm wondering whether there's any way to get across the river in the Sanctum though so that you can skip fighting the Golem. Although it'd complicate the BP situation more, you'd save a really nice chunk of time if there's some way to somehow get across (unlikely, I've tried but still worth a try). Same goes with the river in Town Center West after the Duane battle...again...getting ahead of myself, but I'm curious if tas conditions permit any sequence breaks.
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
I couldn't help but laugh at the noises the knights made when they walked. They sounded like they had little horns on their shoes or something! Anyway, it's looking great. Looking forward to more.
I couldn't help but laugh at the noises the knights made when they walked. They sounded like they had little horns on their shoes or something! Anyway, it's looking great. Looking forward to more.
I'm stuck 5 rooms further. I really want to do it without getting hit at all. If the first bat attacks me then the second never even moves from its spawn. If I climb over the ledge without getting hit the second attacks me every time. No matter how long I wait or what angle I jump off. I tried glitching around the boxes as well. Having to open the door is what gives the second bat time to attack me. I guess I will try to get the required bat attack (I think) to miss me because this is 20 frames faster than taking damage (I think) minus manipulation time.
Entire WIPAfter the 1st boss
I was stuck in this room a few days ago. I started from scratch and saved 1 frame somewhere, and I made it past the bat by the door without getting hit!
The 2nd boss fight is more of an example. It's very slow right now.
After the attack sphere is opened nothing changes rng values. (crits occur on the same frames regardless of input)
After the initial attack nothing affects when misses occur. (chains have a 6 frame window[3 input frames]to succeed.)
I need an initial crit of 16 or 20 (I think) to make it worthwhile.
I have to run through all 10-15 chains to see how many times I miss.
Technically I could wait 300 frames for the rng and do it in 10 chains and it would be faster than my current trial. I'll be stuck here for some time. I wanted to post what I had.
Questions for Riskbreaker Y:
Does turning off the "Information" display in options save time? What about "Timing Display"?
Do I get the Magnolia Frau and use it for the rest of the run?
What do Faerie Wings do?
I avoid killing more in a TAS, I'm going to be behind on points.
How do Battle Points/Raging Ache work?
Is Impact Guard required? Or Defensive chains at all? Are there rooms where you will be attacked no matter what?
Could you come up with how much MP I need and when for teleporting? Watching further into your run it looks like I should be getting +MP from every boss fight bonus. Taking time to obtain/use mana items seems much slower than the few less chains on a boss more str would give me.
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
I'm going to cry a little if/when you get Knight of Brilliance. Still one of the only things I haven't done in the game...
That also stinks about the RNG not changing once you begin attacking. Does cycling through the different body parts advance the RNG at all? If so, it might be faster than waiting.
I'm going to cry a little if/when you get Knight of Brilliance. Still one of the only things I haven't done in the game...
That also stinks about the RNG not changing once you begin attacking. Does cycling through the different body parts advance the RNG at all? If so, it might be faster than waiting.
Nope. I tried that.
This is how I'm doing this right now:
Erratic movement
Open attack sphere on frame 0
Check frames 0-100 for crits
Do 10-15 chains(until the boss dies) for each of those crit iterations
record when the boss dies
Erratic movement
Open attack sphere on frame 1
Repeat
The run looks pretty good so far. I still wonder if you can't manipulate drops from enemies from time to time, though I don't think there's anything you could have gotten before Dullahan that would help that fight.
I do wonder why you chose STR +1 on the bonus wheel. I don't think it's a big time loss to go for a better stat, especially since +1 seems rather low given that you could be buffing MP by more (and you -will- want extra MP later, for teleporting). 2 MP is the most you can get from a wheel, but you're not going to be hunting for +MP items so you'll probably have to settle for that. I'm fairly certain the STR benefit is almost completely negligible anyway, long-term. I could be mistaken on this, of course, but I would suggest being sure you have all the MP you need for teleporting. At one point you will need to teleport about halfway back through the game (I think you need around 65-69 MP to make the trip, but again my memory is hazy.)
I don't think it'll be of much help given that you'll never be buffing INT/AGI but this guide can be useful:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/914326-vagrant-story/faqs/39091
He says it's "random" if you get the AGI or INT wheel if those stats are equal. I wonder if you can manipulate a different wheel somehow, but that does add another thing to worry about on top of the current crit/hit chain manipulation...
At any rate, I can answer some of those questions.
exileut wrote:
Do I get the Magnolia Frau and use it for the rest of the run?
I did a quick check to verify, I think this is correct.
The Fandango is a bronze weapon (+2 str) with Scimitar (+7 str). It's edged type.
The Magnolia Frau is a silver weapon (+3 str) with Wizard staff (+1 str). Blunt type.
Lots of enemies in the game have all sorts of different resistances. You're going to have to look at bosses case-by-case. I'm sure Riskbreaker Y will have done more research on this but I only see Magnolia being useful against undead with edged resistance (silver has a natural bonus versus these enemies).
Keep in mind, because you can manipulate crits in a TAS as well as item drops, weapons that might not have been necessarily useful for Riskbreaker Y could end up being good for you.
exileut wrote:
What do Faerie Wings do?
These handy items are something you'll probably want to manipulate the crap out of in Snowfly Forest (the flying enemies there can drop them at a pretty good rate). They increase your movement and jump speed substantially for a little while, which will help in avoiding enemies, moving through rooms, and skipping puzzles.
exileut wrote:
I avoid killing more in a TAS, I'm going to be behind on points.
How do Battle Points/Raging Ache work?
Is Impact Guard required? Or Defensive chains at all? Are there rooms where you will be attacked no matter what?
Battle points are simple. If you do an 8 chain attack, you'll get 7 battle points. Basically it's the number of your combo minus one. However, points don't roll over, so if you're only 4 battle points away from a new skill, doing a 15 hit combo would waste the extra points.
I honestly don't remember at what point you can get Raging Ache. You need to acquire only battle abilities (the list of abilities you can learn is set in a fixed order, and only three show up at a time, so you have to learn one of those three to make the next one on the list available). I want to say it'll show up about 4 skills in, which would require roughly 90 battle points. This isn't too bad, as you're going to definitely chain more than 90 times, and Raging Ache will be most important late in the game.
As for the chain ability itself, Raging Ache does 10% of your missing health in damage. Since you'll almost definitely do 5-10 damage max with a crit on anything late game without workshopping your gear, Raging Ache can end up being the bulk of your damage. Losing health shouldn't take more than a few seconds of triggering a potent trap, and there's no reason you should ever need to heal. Because you cannot use the same chain ability twice, I suspect once you acquire Raging Ache you'll just switch between that and Heavy Shot. I don't think we'll see Crimson Pain on a speedrun, so no lowering your health through your own attacks.
exileut wrote:
Could you come up with how much MP I need and when for teleporting? Watching further into your run it looks like I should be getting +MP from every boss fight bonus. Taking time to obtain/use mana items seems much slower than the few less chains on a boss more str would give me.
Like I said earlier, you're going to do zero damage on most bosses throughout the game regardless of your strength stat, simply because the gems, weapon material, and attack type are all far more important than stat scaling in this game. Earth Dragon doesn't care if you have 50 STR or 65 STR... it's socketing +Air gems to a weapon that makes you a threat to him. Best case scenario you might do 20 damage on a crit instead of 10. This won't really help any once you get Raging Ache, and the time you have to waste on two teleports + using mana restoration items is much worse than the gain from a few hits saved per boss.
Again, keep in mind you do have the advantage of guaranteed crits and you can manipulate STR increases from Elixir of Kings... these aren't things a normal speedrun could count on. So you may end up going a different road. But traditional speed running of this game relies on increased MP for teleports and Raging Ache to kill bosses.
I know you realize some of this already. I would probably look at his run and see where he does the biggest teleport, or where he does teleports closely enough together that his MP hasn't had time to naturally regen. Then just count how much MP is being spent. I would do this myself but it's finals week. If nobody does, I'll look into it when I have the time.
It is a real shame the Minotaur in the Keep Time Trial requires the Kalmia Sigil. I could almost see ducking into his room and manipulating the mace drop being a time saver, but not with the added time you'd have to take to go into Iron Maiden B1. It might end up being slower anyway.
--
I took the liberty of going through enemies you'll be running into, and marked drops that may be worth picking up. I want to put this stuff out there now because you may end up being able to actually build enough STR to want to prioritize that stat. In a speedrun this would never happen but a TAS with guaranteed crits and drops may make it worthwhile. I'm referencing this guide:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/914326-vagrant-story/faqs/15974
I can't verify the information from school but I've used it in the past. I believe this is all accurate. For reference, I'll compare it to the Fandango. Note that the Fandango, a Bronze Scimitar with a Short Hilt, totals in at 10 STR.
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Gabled Hall - City Walls West
Zombie Fighter drop: Hagane Scimitar + Swept Hilt = 14 STR
Basically a better Fandango (Hagane will give you another +4 STR over bronze). At this point weapon damage may still matter. You also have to kill this enemy anyway to unlock the door in this area. This is right on your path, after beating Duane and getting the Magnolia Frau.
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Way of the Mother Lode - Undercity West
Zombie Knight drop: Hagane Short Sword + Cross Guard + Braveheart Gem = 22 STR
This enemy is optional but right on your path. With the hilt and gem attached, this would be 7 more STR than the Scimitar above and 11 more than the Fandango. Quite a nice upgrade, and the Braveheart gem may make this even more worthwhile, as it increases all affinities a little and helps your chance to land an attack (which will make manipulating hits a lot less stressful).
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Forest River - Snowfly Forest
Zombie Knight drop: Hagane Firangi + Counter Guard = 22 STR
This weapon and its hilt are stronger than the short sword, but since it doesn't have a gem it ends up being only one strength more than the one above (12 more than Fandango). I mention it because I do think you'll end up killing this enemy (they tend to block your path across the logs in the river). That's the only reason I can think I'd get this instead of the sword from Way of the Mother Lode. In all likelihood, you'd end up ditching it in a few rooms for...
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Hewn from Nature - Snowfly Forest
Dark Crusader drop: Hagane Katana + Cross Guard + Demonia = 24 STR
Boss drop, so you're guaranteed to get it. Again, in a normal speedrun it wouldn't matter, but if you can max strength and guarantee crits this is a possible option. Riskbreaker Y might have more to offer on this. This weapon has 14 more STR than the Fandango, and Demonia will increase your effectiveness versus evil enemies.
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Kesch Bridge - Town Center East
Crimson Blade drop: Hagane Falchion + Counter Guard = 26 STR
Crimson Blade drop: Hagane Cranequin + Javelin Bolt = 26 STR
The sword here is only two more strength than the Katana from the boss earlier (16 more than the Fandango), so it's only a minor upgrade. However, the real prize here is the bow. The Cranequin has an impressive 26 STR total. This puts it on par with the sword here (and again, 16 more than the Fandango), and the advantage of a bow is that you will have a significantly larger attack range. Besides allowing you to attack a boss sooner, this also might give you time enough to hit a boss before they land an attack (bosses in this game tend to be at the back of a room, and many of them, such as dragons, will almost certainly hit you with a spell before you can hit them). I would strongly consider diverging from a normal speed run to pick this up. A bow might be useful all the way through to the end of the game, especially given the way the final boss fight works.
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Rue Criminade - Town Center East
Crimson Blade drop: Hagane Gloomwing + Heavy Grip = 32 STR
Next room from Kesch Bridge, you have a nice mace that totals 32 STR, 22 more than the Fandango. There's not much to say about it otherwise.
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Noble Gold and Silk - Undercity East
Quicksilver drop: Silver Baselard + Side Ring + Angel Pearl = 28 STR
Right after getting teleport from the Lich, you have the chance to pick up this weapon. At 28 STR, it's weaker than the Gloomwing and has a small attack range, but it is silver, so it will be useful versus any undead in your path. It also has the Angel Pearl, which increases light affinity; this can be quite useful as quite a few foes and bosses ahead are dark-based. The Side Ring grip also has a nice increase to edged damage. I can see this being situationally useful.
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From Boy to Hero - City Walls North
Blood Lizard drop: Iron Voulge + Framea Pole = 34 STR
Even though it's only iron, this weapon clocks in at a nice 34 STR. I'm sure you can guess how much more than the Fandango that is. How many hours are in a day? A little stronger than the Gloomwing, all said.
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Alone for Eternity - Limestone Quarry
Gremlin drop: Damascus Lug Crossbow + Farlacia Bolt = 31 STR
31 STR on a crossbow is great! Unfortunately, this room is one of two paths and it's probably faster to go the other way (two Dullahan will go down quicker than two Ogres). Moreover, You have to enter the room with 150 health or more, and at this point you're probably rolling with Raging Ache. I'm listing it as an option, but I don't think you'd pick it up.
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Hall of Prayer - Temple of Kilitia
Nightstalker drop: Hagane Double Blade + Bhuj Type + Braveheart + Morlock Jet = 44 STR
Alright, this one's a toughie. At 44 STR this is probably the best weapon you could pick up in terms of raw damage. The enemy that drops it won't spawn on your first visit--you get a boss fight when you come in here. On your way to the Great Cathedral, though, this guy will be waiting for you. So if you take the time to kill him, this can be a great, hard-hitting upgrade. Assuming you have maxed strength whenever possible I can see you doing actual damage on bosses with it. However, the Morlock Jet attached will increase your dark affinity, so you might suddenly be doing the exact wrong kind of damage to some foes...
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Those who Fear the Light - Temple of Kilitia
Gremlin drop: Hagane Lug Crossbow + Falarcia Bolt + Haeralis = 31 STR
Minor upgrade over the Cranequin from Kesch Bridge, at 5 more points in STR (21 more than the Fandango). The Haeralis won't really do anything special at this point because your remaining bosses are not humans, but it does add a little more damage on.
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Well, I've definitely put off studying too long. I don't know how much of that will help but it's a start. I didn't really consider elements or edge types, only pure STR, because right now that seems to be the main question on the table (building STR to actually do damage versus building MP early on for teleporting often). At some point I'll try to look into the damage formula for various weapon types and iron out how much you'd need for it to matter. In the meantime you can do some of that research yourself:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/914326-vagrant-story/faqs/56772
Hope that helps. Ask away if you have questions, I love this friggin' game.
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Edit: Electrospecter, for what it's worth, on 20+ playthroughs of this game, with every title earned and pretty much everything you can do in this game done, I've only ever broken 30 twice. It wasn't the last title I got but it was the hardest, no question.
