Post subject: Ultima: Quest of the Avatar
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NecroVMX brought this up in the Dragon Warrior thread. When I first considered this as a run, I would never be fun to watch. I haven't thought of it since Jyzero showed us all that RPGs can be entertaining, and now I'm reconsidering. It was my favorite game for a time, and upon playing it about a year ago I realized how, despite there being so many towns and available characters, how short it could possibly be. Possibly somebody who has enjoyed doing an RPG run in the time would consider it. A lot of planning would have to go into it. There is one FAQ available, at GameFAQs (check this page: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/game/8269.html) If I remember correctly, you cannot create/use more powerful spells until you actually talk to somebody and find out the reagents required, though I may be wrong about that. For this reason, the optimal party would probably be fighter-based(Fighter, Tinker). Which brings up another question. How big should the party be? Considering the power of luck manipulation, and how long it takes to travel to a town, I think 4 would be overkill. I'm not sure if sleep(I'm sure it's available) would work potentially as well as in Dragon Warrior, but if it does a mage, or magic-wielding fighter would be necessary. There is no luck manipulation involved in teleporting from town to town- only time. Any thoughts? [EDIT by feitclub - GameFAQs does not allow direct linking to files. Changed link to FAQ list instead]
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Well, as cool as this could be, there are lots of depending factors. Battles are much faster when you can use a ranged weapon, so I prefer the paladin as he can get the best bow. He also gets enough magic to get by early on. The cost might be prohibitive in a timeattack though. Anyway, after working on Crystalis, I won't say anything is impossible, so let's look at what is needed and some possibilities: --Beating the Abyss--the main goal--this requires mastering the virtues, getting all the stones and keys (which can be done in one long dungeon run as they are all connected), getting the symbols of principle, getting there in a ship and of course surviving the dungeon --Master all the virtues--There are several tricks, mostly talking to people over and over. Not really a problem. However the runes must be collected, and you have to meditate at the shrines. Some runes will require getting the key. --Getting the ship will require getting to level 4 (I think) to get pirates to appear. So lots of leveling, even with just a couple characters. If heavy luck manipulation is possible, it might almost be better to go solo so that char can level quickly. --Getting the key needs lots of gold, but if killing is done to level, gold can be manipulated from the drops. A dungeon trip could also do this fast, maybe in combination with leveling. --Symbols of principle needs the ship to get to serpent's hold and balloon for Cove. Unless...if you could get really lucky and the whirlpool takes you there. In Cove you talk to one mage that allows you get Gate travel which would speed up travel even more. --Sleep isn't in the spellbook at the start, but is easily obtained in one trip to Moonglow. With luck manipulation and money for reagents, I would rather use tremor and have it kill everyone. --Perhaps it might be good to get the skull, use it to slaughter everything in the dungeons and collect the stones, keys and tons of money. With enough money to get whatever you need, you would turn into a paragon of virtue and finish the game. Ship is needed to get the skull though.
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a solo run would keep the random encounters shorter the less people in your party, the less monsters will attack in a group. (pre-determined battles in dungeons are the same though) Paladin is definatly your best choice. you can buy as many regeants as you want in buceaneer's den from the blind shopkeeper for 1 gp for 99 (he sells manroot), if you do that early on you can just fix your virtue later and not worry about regeants the whole game (other then fungus)
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I owned this game on the Commodore 64 (originally known as Ultima IV). I never beat it. NEVER. I played it for years and I never beat it. If anyone finishes this game in less than three hours I'll buy you a present.
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one thing is at the end of the game, with 8 characters and full avatarhood, high level and such, random encounters happen VERY often. and it's time based, you can't avoid them like in dragon warrior. you can have your guy sitting there doing nothing and eventually you'll be in a battle! a solo run is the only way to do this i think and i'd say the knight or paladin are the best choices, i had a blast with this game back in the day, i'd love to see this run. you also cannot run from battle unless you want your valor rating to go down, which can make you lose avatarhood, which is necessary to the game. it might not matter once you're in the final dungeon. there's no last boss either, i think you can go through the last dungeon avoiding all enemies
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if I recall at the end of the abyss you have to fight a party of all 8 of the classes (fighter mage wizard etc etc)
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yes but they are REALLY easy to beat, and you might be able to walk past them if you do it right
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I'm not sure if this applies to the NES version of the game, as I've only played the PC version. Anyway, you needed to have a party of eight characters, all of them alive, at the end, else you'd be kicked out of the abyss and have to start over.
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spoonshiro wrote:
I'm not sure if this applies to the NES version of the game, as I've only played the PC version. Anyway, you needed to have a party of eight characters, all of them alive, at the end, else you'd be kicked out of the abyss and have to start over.
That doesn't apply to the NES one. I still have an old VHS tape kicking around from when I beat the game with just the one guy in the party. It's very much -not- a speedrun though - I just used the HP-replenishing armor to heal myself. :D
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in the nes version you have to go to the abyss alone
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For me this game was fun for like... 5 hours playtime... I just enjoyed the fact that you could kill beggars. The avatar part was very tedious for me, and makes for a very unfun premise. Everything about this game just irrated me. I would like to see a time attack of this game because I hate it so much. I guess you can say I want someone to kick this game's ass.
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imel007 wrote:
I just enjoyed the fact that you could kill beggars.
You can pretty much kill anyone, except for Lord British. He'll kick your ass if you try anything.
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Two-year bump. This game has been stuck in my mind off and on the last couple months for a TAS, but I didn't think there'd be interest or that it'd be entertaining enough. Found this thread, so there might be a little interest, and the game should be shorter than I first assumed, so who knows. I'll save the novel-writing for the submission text, but I'm considering running this most excellent open-ended RPG. I've literally spent days working out a plan of attack already, this game has so much you need to do but in nearly any order you could imagine, and multiple methods of transportation make it even more complicated. I think I'm starting to get a pretty good plan laid out but I'm still figuring out the details. *I'm going to go it solo as the mage, Mariah. Going solo removes a larrrrrge amount of otherwise unskippable, redundant text boxes, especially when opening treasure chests. The mage has 56MP after gaining just one level, meaning she can use two Squishes in a battle, damning near anything she meets; most other magic users in the game couldn't even cast one Squish at level 3. She also starts off right next to an active moongate, so quick transportation right from the start (as opposed to the Shephard who is stuck on an island with no pirate ships to commandeer and has to wait AN ENTIRE LUNAR CYCLE to escape). *Of course, to use Squish, I'd have to learn it in Yew and return to Moonglow at some point and hit Spells Unlimited. I would love to use Tremor instead, but you have to speak to ALL 3 people that tell you about it (trust me, I checked) before you can use it, and one of those people is locked in a horse's stall in Paws. Skipping Tremor will keep me from ever having to go to Skara Brae, though, so it's not so bad. *Two trips to the dungeons will be necessary--first, for some easy cash (for the darn Key) and levels in Destard (probably, plans subject to change hehe); second, balloon is the only way to get to Serpent's Spine and thus the White Stone, which is necessary to get all of the Keys of Principle at the bottom of the dungeons. So I'm thinking start with Mage, bounce around a little and learn Squish and get a couple runes and level up some of the Virtues, hit Destard for cash, a stone, level 4 or better, and eventually leave through Hythloth. With the balloon in tow, Serpent's Spine and then nearly everything else in the overworld. Back to the dungeons (probably using Despise as entrance since it's a quick descent and it's right next to Serpent's Spine and Britannia) for the rest of the stones and the keys. Hythloth, boat for Skull and Bell, then into the Abyss. It's the part in the middle that I haven't figured out yet; when I mean all over the world, I mean all over the world. Lots of wrinkles to iron out here. Some things I HAVE discovered so far that are interesting: *You CAN kill Lord British, with some...cheat help. You gain 3 exp. and he doesn't die on the map; he just acts like nothing happened. Not like it matters; 250+ hp, 200-400 dmg per hit, takes at most 4 dmg per hit that I could get...iiiit'd never happen *There are exploits for the Virtue that I never expected, and some exploits that I thought worked on the console actually don't! Beggars, for example, don't give you compassion EVERY time you give them a coin, but instead reset over time. *Standing on a city, cave, or castle prevents random encounters in the overworld while the moons still shift *Treasure chest money IS manipulable *Cove can be reached in a way other than Whirlpool and Balloon; pirate ships CAN appear in that little lake! More later as I work things out. Opinions, anyone? Tell me now if you worry this run will be too uneventful/repetitive Edit: Uh oh. Two problems. 1) I talked to all three that give Tremor and yet they wouldn't let me learn it (do I have to know every other learnable spell first? argh) and 2) Squish will not destroy all creatures, but instead seems to just put them down to 25% of their current health or so (meaning that subsequent Squishes only do 1-5 damage). This is very bad news because now, both possible methods of superquick dungeon delving are gone. It's almost looking like a team of four all with Bows or better is the better option for taking out the large groups of enemies in dungeon rooms. Now, the Energy spell works great for this, but anything that dies from walking into the lava it creates gives NO experience, which is something I need early on. The Quick spell on the other hand could let me use two spells a turn, though one's just on Auto (meaning just missile randomly, which won't kill most creatures) but it would be a help. Augh this requires much re-planning
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This is one I have thought about, rethought, etcetc I really dont know if there is an optimal plan you can do without maybe doing like 10-15 previous runs. Which I didnt feel like doing. :) Things I was considering doing: I was thinking of Mage as well, but in the Abyss there are many fights that are necessary to do, would squish + other spells end the fight faster say then A fighter (or paladin/etc) with a reasonable ranged weapon? Seeing as he'll have 99 MP anyways and can also cast squish. .Or do you get enough golf to save up for the Wand? Then Squish+Wand would kick ass in the abyss. (wand is also a ranged weapon). Maybe Druid + some bow + Squish is a better idea? (or even the Ranger, but ranger starts in Skara, which is a useless town). Druid would have enough starting MP for blink (if random encountes cant be manipulated, that I dont know). You should verify what squish does, if it takes out enough that a sling shot can kill them the next round, then it should leave no doubt that you can use the Mage. If squish leaves the monsters with more HP, then I think its the druid? Combat with lots of monsters could possibly be killed faster with Squish, then Quick, then slinging them to death? Maybe save for the Abyss fights. (unless they can be blinked away? I cant remember) Seeing as Squish is probably going to be used a lot, I assume a lot of the gold money would be used to buying manroot in Buc. Den.? This makes me wonder if Gate is worth getting then? OR by the time youre able to cast it, you have basically everything anyways, and it might be useless. AAAhhhhh, its so damn complex eh.. so many variables............. Interesting things I have found: * Waiting on a bridge will always get you a fight with trolls/orcs. Useful? Maybe not, but its still interesting. :) * I believe the prisoner in the Castle Brit. is the best for raising virtues. * Dieing could probably be abused. You get 200 (or is it 400? I cant remember) gold after you die. You keep your items if you die. Buy 400 worth of armor/weapons, die, repeat. Then when finish, you can resell them. Worth using? Again, probably not, but maybe something to consider. * Theres the invislble whirpool east of Paws. Again, no idea if its useful, but its there. Misc things that plagued my mind: Is donating blood only way to raise Sacrifice? Mage would come in handy here, donate, heal, donate, heal, etc. Is it worth ripping off herb sellers early in the game? I would think so. Especially if you start in Moonglow. The small loss of virtue is probably worth it? Is it worth ripping off manroot seller in Buc Den? Im not sure how much virtue is lost, but again, its probably worth it if squish is going to be a valuable spell. (at this point, most of your virtues should be pretty high) What resets the "im too tired to pray"? Is it staying at an inn? Is it walking around X number of steps? I would assume level 4 is going to be the max level of your char? Just enough to get the ship and thats it. After that, blink would be used in all battles that couldnt be avoided. Of course thats if Valour is partial avatarhood at that point. Or unless you can manipulate random encounters. If I were to pick up companions, pick up the Druid? and maybe the Paladin? for their MP and sell starting equipment? (so they can just be used as backup healers for donating blood, backup squish, backup blink, etc). Maybe just give them slings if Squish works they way I think it does. Aahhhhhhhhhhhhh just boggles the mind on how complex a run will be. and how many times you will rethink it and start over. There is more I want to type, but then I rethink and dont know if thats the right way. etc. heh. Please let me know how it goes, and maybe I can be of some help... :) edit: Im assuming youve looked over fceus debugger and know the values for vritue levels, etc. If not, I have those basic values. Curious if youve figured out if random encounters can be manipulated? And how did you figure out the gold can be manipulated?
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HEADS UP, long post #3 in a row oncoming, hehe: *Yeah, I'll probably have to run through the game a couple times only semi-optimized to see what's fastest. *If I DO get a Wand then the vast majority of creatures in the game will be defeated in one strike. My intent for quick-cash is the loop in Destard on Level 4, which is en route anyway-19 treasure chests to manipulate 85+ Gold each and then a forced Room fight, and then back to the gold loop with every chest refilled! One loop will give enough for the key, three more for the wand, OR two loops will yield three X-Bows. (X-Bow 30-40 damage all BUT Mage and Shephard can use, Wand 50-60 damage only Mage and Druid can use) However, the Wand can only be purchased at Buccaneer's Den, whereas the X-Bows can be purchased at either there or Vesper. Vesper is on route to a couple shrines, while the Den on the other hand is an island in the middle of the ocean. *Squish will do roughly 75% damage, so even for creatures that have 50-70 hit points it brings them to less than 20, so a Squish-Bows combination would kill everything, Squish-Sling would indeed kill most. However, there are a lot of creatures that a Bow can kill in one hit, most by X-Bow, vast majority by Wand, so there is definitely some work involved figuring out what's best. *Gate will be useful, but ONLY if the route brings us back to Moonglow after we visit Cove. The guy that gives the spell is dead en route to the Candle, and Gate is SUCH a timesaver it isn't even funny. To hell with time, wind, and pirates, I go where I want WHEN I want! *Your discovery about the bridge is a good thing that I'd hadn't realized. Trolls can be killed by a bow in one hit for some quick easy experience. Perhaps in my first trip around the world, pre-Destard, I can manipulate some random battles on bridges if necessary. *Yes, I fully intend to abuse that silly reaper in Castle Brittania for my virtue raising. Such a cheap, easy exploit! And yeah I've been using the Memory Watcher and Cheat functions in FCEU already, I've been using it to figure out the best methods to gain virtue. It's surprising what does and doesn't give or take away virtue sometimes when you can see into the game itself. *400 gold upon death, and I've already considered it, yeah. It's probably the easiest way to get that necessary level 4 as soon as you have the experience, and then you're right there in the Britain area, which has the best virtue gaining in the whole game, between the reaper, a beggar, and a healer, along with two runes and friendly access to pirates. *The whirlpool isn't invisible; I have seen it maybe twice in my youth. Ever. Something tells me it only appears to higher level characters, like how the pirates only appear to level 4 and above. Simply put, I have no intention of using the whirlpool to get to Cove; the balloon or stupidly placed pirates will suffice. *Yes, donating blood is the ONLY way to gain Sacrifice, and, like beggars, can not be done repeatedly to gain virtue (but they'll still sap your health the bastards!!) AND they'll only offer if you have more than 300 health, meaning that nothing can be done until level 4, again, which sucks a whole lot more than blood. *Ripping off blind reagent sellers is incredibly worthwhile. The four virtues that drop from this awful deed are the same four virtues that the reaper will raise every time you answer his question right! It's far too perfect, and is nearly the only thing about planning this run that has gone beautifully well so far, haha. With that in mind, the ideal reagent seller to ripoff is indeed the one in Buccaneer's Den for his supply of Manroot. Unfortunately, you can only get there by boat or balloon, and boat requires level 4 and balloon requires a trip to Hythloth. The latter option, then, will mean that I won't have any Squish for my delve into Destard, on top of the lack of ranged weapons, this makes for a bad trip. Another option is to nab the Manroot from its overworld location near at a new moon; perhaps using this chance to die-teleport to Britain would be good, since the moongate will surely appear very soon once you exit the castle. Hm, I wonder if the exit spell can be used in towns and castles for a little speed boost, haha! Must test. *I'm not sure what resets certain values yet. You cannot pray repeatedly or obtain virtue from repeated chats with beggars, healers, or Stormwind, but they DO reset. One loop I know of is in Britain: Beggar->Healer->Stormwind->King to heal for the healer, and by the time you return to the beggar, he'll give you compassion points again. However, I'd greatly prefer not to have to use this if possible. I'd of course skip the chat with Stormwind, but it does make me wonder whether footsteps (or footsteps in the overworld instead! Walking in town doesn't restore MP like it does everywhere else in the world, perhaps that's the key!) determine how soon you can benefit from such characters. *I don't intend to go above level 4, no, and yeah blink would be used much at that point. However, I haven't looked into whether random encounters are manipulable one way or another, though I do know that standing on city, castle, or cave squares prevent attacks. I have an idea why but whatever. Skipping battles while walking around is more important, currently. *IF companions are picked up, yeah, Druid and Paladin are the good choices. I intend to use Flamis (who stands next to Jaana the Druid btw) for his Honesty virtue exploit, so if I do try out accomplices, she's only one step away! If I use neither friends nor Squish, though, I'd only ever have to visit Yew once. Perhaps I can do Destard alone and Squishless, but then gain Jaana and Dupre the Paladin and Squish for the second dungeon dive. Then I'd have Squish for the Abyss, which you do totally alone in the NES version of Ultima 4 anyway. Squish + Quick will be fun there I'm sure. *Gold can be manipulated. The Random Number Generator continues once every frame that you're able to be attacked by random monsters (citystanding included) and don't have any windows open, so the amount of gold inside a treasure chest is determined from the frame that you first open up the menu and stays there while you reach Search and go through the conversation that way. Longpost is looooong.
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* There is also the invisible whirpool east of Paws that doesnt move. Its not useful, but its the same as the normal whirlpool, taking you to Cove. * Exit doesnt work in Towns/Castles. :( * Hopefully the mandrake search spot can be abused somehow. To get maximum mandrake. Unfortunately, if you main char is the Mage, I cant see anyway of not getting a Wand. The abyss fights might just take too long with out it. Which means Buc. Den. Buc. Den aint too far from Horn island anyways (if I remember correctly, maybe Im wrong), so maybe it would be worth a stop there. Contrary to that, squish + Ice repeated might be enough to kill all the monsters, but then you have to walk around and regain MP. They just dont make it easy do they? ;) Can you share what values for the RNG and gold and what not? I'll take another stab at seeing if I can figure out how the random fights work.
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I don't know values for RNG, didn't think to check but that might be a good idea. Gold is somewhere in the 6800 region and is two bytes backwards, meaning that the first byte is up to 256 and the second byte is the rest up into the tens of thousands. What invisibile whirlpool? If you can find that for me, I might be able to work it in. I know of the visible, moving whirlpool, but not of any invisible one. Maybe the whirlpool is still there if your level is too low, just invisible. Amazing, this must be looked into. There are coordinates to be found for its location in the memory for sure. Don't believe the mandrake spot can be abused, same old reset issue as with beggars (untested), but you get a couple dozen when you dig I think, so once should be enough. Horn island is a bit closer to Magincia, so popping over there to use its moongate is a possibility if I don't pick pick up Gate. Whicih I should, though. Walking around to gain MP shouldn't be an issue at all, overworld or not, especially if I manipulate random battles away from the dungeon so I can only worry about the rooms. I won't even have to hit as many rooms as you might expect, even.
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My bad, the faq says the whirlpool is invisible there, but its just the "starting" point for the whirlpool before it starts to move. It could be level based before it starts showing up as you said. But I just tried with a high level party and there was no invisible pool there. btw, the coords are 127 lat, 125 long. Maybe I misunderstood, but you said you can manipulate the amount of gold in the chests. Thats what I really want to know. I would assume this part of the game uses the RNG. So what memory locations contain the value of the gold in the chest? I tried one save game with a known value in the chest, advanced enough frames so that the chest value would change (after opening the chest, then reloading), but I could not find a value in memory that had these two in common. Maybe Im just doing it wrong. :) And yes I know about around 6800. 67fe is herbs, 680c is start of virtues, gold is at 6827, etcetc all around there. Im tinkering around with fights right now, not having much luck. Maybe Im just too stupid. :)
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Maybe not as Im stupid as I think. I believe value 0xD9 has a lot to do with fights. It overflows from FF to 00 and a fight will start, if you keep it at 00, a fight never happens. Yep, force the cheat to force 00 in 0xD9 and a fight will never happen. Now its time to see what affects D9 and if we can force it to do what we want. EDIT: Quick hack is to change the JSR F32B at 0xe956 (thats 202BF3) to JMP E9A5 (4CA5E9) and no random encounters will appear. Of course, no good for a speedrun, but its helpful to be able to move around when testing out D9 and not have to go through the fights. Note, my 6502 asm is slowly improving, instead of 3 byte changes, all you really need to do is change the STA $D9 (85 D9) @ e952 to LDA (A5 D9). I have retraced some of the steps that change value D9, but still cant figure out exactly what gives the random value to increase D9. D9 "increases" every 15 frames. A "0" increase is possible, as I have a save game that goes 30 frames without increasing D9. Hitting buttons (B, select, start, up down left right) doesnt seem to change the randomness. Bringing up windows perhaps changes it, casting spells definitely does. But seeing as the value increases anyways, is it worth wasting lots of frames with the window being drawn so that you can get 15 frames of 0 increase? To be honest, I dont think its even going to be close to possible to manipulate this. Going to be stuck with random fights, and tons of them. :(
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The biggest issue with the random fights will be on the high seas, though there will be some walking around necessary. Thanks for that random battle stopping address, though, that'll definitely help speed research up!
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only one thing resets $D9 and that is going to an inn, resting, saving the game then resetting the NES and loading the save game. Not really useful, as takes too long to save games, etc. Dieing doesnt do diddly, fighting a pirate ship does nothing. nothing does anything. stupid game. :) Of course D9 does not increase while standing on the town/cave (which you already know), so you could plan perfect timing to get from the town to the moongate. I believe the rng for $d9 starts at 0xF41B, or at least the routines there are used to calculate it, it may even go further back. Youre looking at random fights about every 12 seconds of overland/dungeon movement. :( Thats going to be a ton of fights, and a ton of blinks.
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I am resurrecting this thread to reveal the results of some research. Not many definites yet, but I am starting to get some ideas. This is a run that would almost certainly have to made completely through multiple times to really figure things out. Anyway, here's the goods: -There shouldn't be a lot of random battles. The key should be obtained early, even if it means stealing from towns. The penalty for stealing is pretty low and only affects easily-raised virtues. That lets you get into hythloth and get the balloon. Then you can fly around with no random encounters. Furthermore, you can fly to cove and get gate travel! Finally, the dungeons go pretty fast when you know what you're doing. -Figured out the issues with getting Tremor. The flags that control spell availability at Spells Unlimited are single bits in $68d3 and $68d4. The lowest bit of $68d4 is tremor. Now some of the spells are revealed in pieces by multiple NPCs, but I believe that only one conversation actually sets the flag. So among the three NPCs who mention the man in black that knows tremor ......*NONE* of them sets the flag!!! The flag actually gets set when you talk to a mage in Lord British's Castle who says "Disturb me not, for I seek to end odd-order intermodulation in linear power stages." This is great because it is an easily accessible spot that doesn't even require the key. In fact, you have to go right by there to get the rune of spirituality. -Undecided whether it's better to start with paladin or mage. Paladin starts out with much more experience - 325 vs 175. This is significant because you only need 400 to reach level 4. It's necessary to get the ship eventually to get a few items and reach the final dungeon. However, in most cases, the balloon can replace the ship for transportation. This is probably even preferable as it eliminates random encounters. There are still a lot of mandatory dungeon battles, certainly enough to get the 225 exp for the mage. But there's another issue with the valor virtue that may make it preferable to do more random encounters. Mage starts out in Moonglow and so she can get herbs for magic right away and use fire to nail small fry for exp and gold. The paladin can sell his starting armor and buy a bow, then gate to Moonglow or walk to paws for herbs. Then again, the mage can put this money towards the key. -You can increase your MP through the following loop: --Enter hythloth from Britain Castle --Cast exit immediately --Re-enter the other entrance --Touch the orb two steps from that entrance. This kills you but raises all stats by 5. Paladin gets 5 MP, Mage gets 10. Didn't check druid. --You get revived by Lord British and you're in his throne room. There's no impact to your virtue or exp, but your gold gets reset to 400. --Repeat as many times as necessary. This is probably about four times for a paladin. Of course, this would work well with multiple party members. Each would touch the orb and die before the main char does so. Everyone would get high MP to tremor the crap out of all the dungeon battles. -I went through all the towns and castles and did a few other things to see how I can build the virtues. They start at 50 and you need to go up to 99. Three of them are problematic: Valor, compassion and sacrifice. --It seems that the only way to raise valor is to fight. It goes up one point every battle, along with a point of honor. Also, it does not go up in the battle rooms in the dungeons, only on random encounters. If anyone figured out a better way to raise valor, please speak up! If I am right about this then a solo run is probably best as there are going to be a lot of random battles -- at least 49. --Compassion only goes up when you give money to a beggar. It doesn't matter how much, 1 gold is just as good as 1000. You get 5 points either way, and one point of humility. The ghost near the rune of valor gives 5 points for talking to it, but it disappears afterwords. --As was noted before, sacrifice only goes up from giving blood. You get 6 points of sacrifice and 3 humility. --Other virtues are easy. Honesty, justice, honor and humility go up just by giving the right price to the item vendor. You can also sell an item for the right price. To facilitate this, you can buy a bunch of staffs and cloths early on and sell them off over the course of the run. As with other things, there's a timer, but it seems to be separate for herbs and weapons. Meditating at shrines increases spirituality. There are also several NPCs that can raise these 5, the best being the reaper in British's castle. --By the way, using the skull drops all virtues by 10. However, if this causes them to go below 10, they get set to 10, so 10 is effectively the lower limit. Still, unless there's a better way to get valor the cost is way too big.
Lord_Tom
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Expert player (3145)
Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England
Wow, I'd love to see a run of this game. Spent a sick amount of time playing it as a kid before I finally beat it. From everything I've read, it was just as rich and complicated as I remember...;)
Twisted_Eye
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Active player (410)
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 636
Location: Seattle, WA
oh, wow! That's a lot of awesome information. Wish I were near my notes to see what more I could add that I was able to figure out with what tinkering I did. What can I remember ahh Getting the stones in the dungeons will be very easy using the key rooms. I've already figured out what the quickest path would be step-by-step--it just depends on whether popping into a nearby treasure room to get the gold for the key or other things is a good idea, depending on how early in the run you want to do this--you can just pop into hythloth and Exit for a quick re-ballooning after. Working out the path through the game is going to be crazy tricky. You can perhaps some some MP/Herbs on the really strong enemies by using Squish first before Tremor if it can't kill some in one hit. Squish halves the life of creatures, so clearly it alone is useless, but with Tremor (thank GOD for your discovery! I was tearing my hair out) as an aftershock, all's good and for cheaper. I believe I was told somewhere that Sacrifice can go up by having the avatar-to-be be the last party member to run (but that drops Valor probably, so may not be worth it) Man I absolutely love this game. There's a Master System version that is far truer to the original computer versions, but that one is far less entertaining to watch and the music is much worse. Doubt it'd be faster or easier, either!
Lord_Tom
He/Him
Expert player (3145)
Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England
If you haven't already, I would make certain to specifically test that it is sufficient to speak to that one guy & have tremor made available. I say this because Faxanadu had a similar situation where it seemed that a step could be skipped, based on flags that were set, but there was specific logic in the source which enforced actually doing everything. Hopefully it works, just didn't want you guys to do a bunch of planning and find out later it didn't...