Post by MESHUGGAH

Posted: 9/16/2011 4:06 PM
(Edited: 9/16/2011 7:23 PM)

Post subject: Dream Team Contest 4 Game Selection!

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DarkKobold

Skilled player (1652)

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy

I'm hijacking the Awards section of the board, so that we can have approval voting instead of single votes. Also, after struggling to pick 4 games, I decided to include a 5th. Rockin' Kats - This would be a first for DTC 4, a game with an already published movie. There is a ton of depth to this game that has not been explored, and would make for a difficult DTC4. Suggestion by adelikat. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - While a straight forward platformer, this game has glitches, sequence break(s), and the ability to be a colorful and interesting movie. Estimated TAS length: 25-30m. Suggestion by AKheon. Captain Commando, 4 player - A first for DTC4! A multiplayer game, and 4 at that! I will provide a multi-track script for people to use, if this wins. Teams are expected to use each of the 4 characters, regardless of strengths. Estimated length: 15-20 minutes Sorcerer's Maze - A breakout clone with boss battles, powerups, and a balancing act. MP can be gained to buy powerups for each level. While my test TAS was very long, it was very poorly optimized. With optimization, MP maxing, and proper powerup buying, this movie could be very entertaining. Estimated TAS Length: 30-40m. Suggestion aided by FatRatKnight Chronos Twin - A bizzare multitime game, with lots of room for optimization. Estimated TAS length: 25 minutes. Suggestion by Atma Some rejected games: Cannon Fodder - This would have been a great game, but it is reallllly long. I finished the first 20% in about 30 minutes. This would not have been feasible in the time allowed Syndicate - You can do 4 player SNES action, but it is once again, just too long to get done. Knight's Quest - This would have been a fun game, but it is far too simplistic. Most of the resulting movies would have ended up far too similar. Mega Man PC - This would have been fun, but JPC-rr's learning curve is just too large for this competition. I'll post more as I remember them. I won't post ones that may be good for future competitions.

Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.

Posted: 9/16/2011 4:12 PM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1099)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

My vote is for Rockin Kats. I like the idea of using these contests to improve out of date runs. Also, because of how tough it is to optimise it would be the game I'd be most interested in seeing what each team comes up with.

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 9/16/2011 5:55 PM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

If not during this contest, Rockin' Kats won't ever be improved!

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 9/16/2011 6:58 PM
(Edited: 9/17/2011 1:10 AM)

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Brandon

He/Him

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Joined: 11/21/2010
Posts: 914
Location: Tennessee

Although essentially every game on this list deserves to be run, I would like to place a sole vote on Chrono Twins. Rockin' Kats - I agree that this game could probably be optimized much more, and that it could make for a good competition to see how much it can be improved, but I don't buy into the belief that this will never be re-run if we don't do it here. Games that have been published before have a much higher chance of being run than an obscure game with little to no resources or recognition in the TAS community. Furthermore, improvements are not something that I believe can be rushed. With the other games, we are going in blind and we have no idea how long the movies will end up being, so we have no standard to meet. With an improvement, our goal is to focus on every single flaw done by the previous author; this simply can't be done well in the given time restraints. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - I honestly found nearly no information on this game. Although I'm sure this is a good game, we have enough alternatives for me to overlook this. Captain Commando - The only real reason I like this idea is because the game is where the name Capcom came from (Captain Commando). We already have a 4-player beat-em-up on this site (The Simpsons), and I doubt its quality can be matched in the given amount of time. Sorceror's Maze - Looks really cool, but it's breakout clone that seems like it will take significantly longer than all of the other games. I'm sure this will become repetitive after a while for the viewer, even if I'm sure it'd be fun to TAS. Chronos Twins - Wow, what's not to like? A DS game without touch screen input, and one with an interesting concept at that. This is similar to a multi-game run, but with a connection between the two games. It would have all the entertainment of a multi-game run, except it would have an actual connection, and it wouldn't have redundant sounds all going on at once. Best yet, when you're actually playing this game, I'm sure you have to stop and think about what's going on in each world; in TAS, this hesitation is removed, inevitably making the final product incredibly impressive. I also don't believe this game will get the same level of attention anywhere outside of this contest, due to it not being well known (This is the first time I've ever heard of it, at least). I've never tried TASing on the DS, and I'd probably be much more comfortable running a NES game (Especially considering it might lead to another verification), but this game is so interesting that I cannot in good conscious hurt its chances of being the chosen game by voting for anything else. But hey, that's just my two cents. I'll be happy running any of these, mostly because none of them are for the Genesis (I hate Gens).

All the best, Brandon Evans

Posted: 9/16/2011 7:09 PM
(Edited: 9/16/2011 9:48 PM)

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partyboy1a

Player (138)

Joined: 9/18/2007
Posts: 389

Captain Commando? No... I think this one would need to contain speed / entertainment tradeoffs to avoid doing all the same fights over and over again. Rockin Kats didn't look that interesting to me... But it would be quite helpful to have a comparison movie to start with. Crouching Tiger is really somewhat straight forward, but some of the possible moves are really fast... and it has better sound and graphics. Sorcerer's Maze seems too difficult to me, we would need some tools for it like the tools for Lunar Ball, but with hundreds of choices for every second... The character movement speed at Chronos Twins is a bit slow compared to the other games, but the gameplay is quite unique... and it will somehow look like completing two games at once. (Edit: I decided to vote for Chronos Twins, and nothing else... Brandon offered quite good reasons to do so.)

Posted: 9/16/2011 7:54 PM

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AnS

Emulator Coder, Experienced player (728)

Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682

I'm voting for Chronos Twin and Rockin' Kats. Sorcerer's Maze and Crouching Tiger are too long for a contest, and Captain Commando isn't suitable, because this contest is all about speed, not entertainment.

Posted: 9/16/2011 8:04 PM

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mmbossman

Experienced player (829)

Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong

AnS wrote:

I'm voting for Chronos Twin and Rockin' Kats.

Ditto. I remember seeing a youtube clip of Chronos Twin a year ago and thinking it would make a pretty entertaining movie. And Rockin' Kats is complex, and can be improved by probably 25% of the current movie from what I've read, as well as being a pretty entertaining game when it's done fast (the channel X run is fun to watch, after all).

Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page

Posted: 9/16/2011 9:47 PM

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DarkKobold

Skilled player (1652)

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy

Clearly, my 2 suggestions are well on their way to winning, with zero votes each. I don't really know why I held this poll, since clearly I could have picked the best game for the contest on my own...

Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.

Posted: 9/16/2011 9:50 PM

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partyboy1a

Player (138)

Joined: 9/18/2007
Posts: 389

Yeah... my choices were even better I only thought about games for SNES and Genesis.

Posted: 9/16/2011 10:42 PM

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TASManiac

Joined: 7/30/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Watching a TAS in the basement...

You people have odd taste. Voting for Capcom and SM.

I am the future ruler of the world! My forum: http://elderyoshisisland.forumotion.com/

Posted: 9/17/2011 5:43 AM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1203)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

Not voted - Italics Voted - Bold NES Rockin' Kats - Seeing as we have a (granted, rather suboptimal) published TAS, this gives a pretty strong benchmark that others can base their runs off of. From the impression I got playing this for a short time led me to think the runs from the different teams might end up looking similar. GBA Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - It looks as though our main character may be repeatedly jump-kicking through stages. I like the idea of moving with a ridiculous form of movement, and hopefully there will be varied methods of handling enemies across the teams. Arcade Captain Commando - I haven't even looked at this title. I heard it's kind of like Simpsons from one of these posts here, a beat-'em-up, I believe. Which might end up killing enemies off-screen repeatedly, across all teams. I'm all for the 4-player part, but not the beat-'em-up part. On the other hand, I'm probably pretty heavily uninformed. PSX Sorcerer's Maze - I've seen a YouTube clip, a TAS I believe, that beat one level of it using some sort of bought power-up, was it? It did it blindingly fast. Alas, I have no clue what the link is now. Personally, I would like to see the results of a full TAS done at some point. DS Chronos Twin - Despite my current problems handling later versions of DeSmuME (instant crash, can't even run it at all, even the dev version can't give an error code), the one gameplay clip I saw of it looks pretty interesting. DarkKobold, be sure to give us the ROM checksum or whatever of the selected game. I would hate to submit a full TAS on what we think is the proper version only to find out we used (E) when the version should have been (U).

Posted: 9/17/2011 6:12 AM

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pirate_sephiroth

Active player (315)

Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil

pointless poll, Rockin Kats will obviously win because nobody wants to get out of their comfort zone. you see why it's important to get a opinion from someone clever enough and outside the contest now?

"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate

Bisqwit wrote:

Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.

Posted: 9/17/2011 6:23 AM

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Pasky13

Former player

Joined: 5/4/2005
Posts: 502
Location: Onett, Eagleland

pirate_sephiroth wrote:

pointless poll, Rockin Kats will obviously win because nobody wants to get out of their comfort zone. you see why it's important to get a opinion from someone clever enough and outside the contest now?

This saddens me that the contest is gonna most likely be held using an already published game :(.

I think.....therefore I am not Barry Burton

Posted: 9/17/2011 6:54 AM

Post subject: EDITED AGAIN

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pirate_sephiroth

Active player (315)

Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil

my take on the games Rockin' Kats - Yet another NES platformer. Sad choice. Already has a published run. Sad². Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - When I read this, I thought it was the bootleg KoF 2k2 game. But it's the crappy GBA game. Captain Commando, 4 player - I remember this game and a 4 player run would look great. And since I've never made such a thing, it would be an extra accomplishment for me and maybe for the other team members. Sorcerer's Maze - I've never heard of the game before, but after watching a youtube video I saw it has potential. The power-up that duplicates the ball everytime in bounces on "the thing we control" looks amazing. Could be repetitive after a while but I"d have to play to confirm. Chronos Twin - lame platformer on 2 screens

people on IRC wrote:

[05:07] <MESHUGGAH> I played a bit with Chronos Twin and it's all about cutscenes, so I stopped it after "playing" 5 minutes [05:08] <MESHUGGAH> it was something like watching an all-day-long movie [05:08] <pirate_sephiroth> unskippable? [05:08] <MESHUGGAH> I tried a lot of combination and couldn't skip it

my sugestions to DarkKobold and this contest:

Let the teams pick any one of these games and change the goal of the contest to entertainment value, making a poll at the end to decide which run is better.
Troll everyone and say that you are gonna pick the game with less votes.
Screw this poll and pick one of those 2 games yourself
Do a barrel roll (Z or R twice)!

"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate

Bisqwit wrote:

Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.

Posted: 9/17/2011 8:37 AM

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MESHUGGAH

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Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1353
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Rapid information exchange: 1. Does anybody played these games before actually suggesting them and adding it to the poll? - CTHD looks like a vomit for me. Does Chronos Twin has any skippable cutscenes? Sorcerer's Maze looks good but insanely repetitive. Rockin' Kats has already published TAS, so it will be fun to just simply improve an old TAS witihn a month and make a new record after the competition when everyone has more time. Captain Commando 4 player, watch next section. 2. Why everyone can vote if they don't need to make a 4 player TAS within less than a month? 3. So what's really the goal of this competition? Also don't misunderstand me, I have no problem with the selected games, just simply wondering that anybody has even tried to play these games or at least watched anything about them, not just "WOW A NES GAME I VOTE THIS"?

PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...

Posted: 9/17/2011 9:53 AM

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Atma

Former player

Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803

MESHUGGAH wrote:

1. Does anybody played these games before actually suggesting them and adding it to the poll?

Yes.

Does Chronos Twin has any skippable cutscenes?

Not to my knowledge, but the two further cutscenes past the initial have faster skippable text, iirc.

Also don't misunderstand me, I have no problem with the selected games, just simply wondering that anybody has even tried to play these games or at least watched anything about them, not just "WOW A NES GAME I VOTE THIS"?

I wouldn't suggest a game that I hadn't tested out.

Posted: 9/17/2011 10:01 AM
(Edited: 9/17/2011 10:08 AM)

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AKheon

Editor, Experienced player (885)

Joined: 1/23/2008
Posts: 529
Location: Finland

Got the impression that Darkkobold test TASed each game to some length to see how well they'd work here. I personally know that at least CTHD has TAS potential, having played it through once and then some. (I wouldn't have suggested it otherwise) ...c'mon, it even has a quick jumpkick you can spam endlessly, like in newer Castlevanias. Rockin' Kats might not be a bad choice, but I think a fresh new game for this competition would be more fun. Chronos Twin I don't personally know, but it seemed intriguing based on Youtube. ~~However, too bad if the game has as many cutscenes as you say.~~

Posted: 9/17/2011 10:01 AM

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MESHUGGAH

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Atma wrote:

Yes. / Not to my knowledge, but the two further cutscenes past the initial have faster skippable text, iirc. / I wouldn't suggest a game that I hadn't tested out.

Thank you for the answers, now I'm voting Rockin Kats'.

PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...

Posted: 9/17/2011 10:21 AM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

As my Rockin' Kats vote may look not very obvious, I have to elaborate now. Several truly pro TASers have given up about this game, it needs much RNG-work, plus random lag avoiding, sometimes even with slowing down the motion, wise route planning. And it's rather long. So, only team could work out a real solution, maybe for the future deep obsoletion. And I've beaten this game in my childhood, except the 2 last rooms of Channel X.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 9/17/2011 10:25 AM

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pirate_sephiroth

Active player (315)

Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil

BTW if Rockin Kats wins this is gonna become much more a frame war than a real contest. All runs will look exactly the same. Can't you people see it's a stupid 100 years old NES game. And a very lame game even for those standards. If you want to have a decent contest, it's time to stop going with the flow and start voting for Captain Commando or Sorcerer's Maze. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdb6vAeLu7Q

"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate

Bisqwit wrote:

Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.

Posted: 9/17/2011 11:34 AM

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AnS

Emulator Coder, Experienced player (728)

Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682

I see no problem in unskippable cunscenes, sure they somewhat decrease entertainment by messing with fast pace of runs, but I thought the contest wasn't about entertainment. I actually like the idea of making entartainment-oriented contest, but that's better for next time.

pirate_sephiroth wrote:

BTW if Rockin Kats wins this is gonna become much more a frame war than a real contest.

Well, framewars are real test for TASer's skills, aren't they? ;)

pirate_sephiroth wrote:

All runs will look exactly the same.

Not necessary. Maybe someone finds better route of channels yet.

pirate_sephiroth wrote:

Can't you people see it's a stupid 100 years old NES game. And a very lame game even for those standards.

Ok, now I'm offended. So I'll let you know, you're just afraid of losing a contest that got rid of random winning factors (those factors outside of TASer's comfort zone). I think you'd propose rule of tasing blindfolded just to further confuse winning conditions.

Posted: 9/17/2011 12:45 PM

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DarkKobold

Skilled player (1652)

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy

MESHUGGAH wrote:

Rapid information exchange: 2. Why everyone can vote if they don't need to make a 4 player TAS within less than a month?

adelikat and I made Simpsons in about 2 weeks, and we weren't even on a deadline.

Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.

Posted: 9/17/2011 3:58 PM

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DarkKobold

Skilled player (1652)

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy

Given that atma warned me of possible emulation issues, so I am calling it for rockin kats. It will be the same rom as the pubd run. Ill post a more complete post soon.

Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.

Posted: 9/18/2011 11:19 AM

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Aglar

Expert player (3646)

Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 375
Location: Varberg, Sweden

I'd sure be glad if the Rockin Kats run was to be made in form of a contest. Just think about that it will require a HUGE amount of planning before the run can even be started, as mentioned here http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=229753#229753 (BTW, you "only" need to manipulate 25 values for the first boss as opposed to what I wrote earlier) Also I guess I now need to share my final work of this game, where I continued a little on my previously posted testrun. I have further ideas for how to improve it but maybe that should be a part of the competition for others to figure out? I haven't really read enough about the contest itself to know what the goals are, the timeframe or how optimized you're going to make the run. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1563824369/Rockin%27%20Kats%20%28U%29test.fcm (I think it'd desync if I'd try to convert it to fm2)

feos wrote:

Only Aglar can improve this now.

Forum Awards Dream Team Contest 4 Game Selection!

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Dream Team Contest 4 Game Selection!