But just because a run is faster than the current run doesn't mean it will automatically be published. If a run is submitted that is faster because it uses the pixel trick, but is otherwise sloppy and/or less entertaining, it will/may not be accepted.
But there'll be a huge uproar over the whole process, too.
How much does the pixel trick reduce entertainment? It didn't bug me any, but then again if it were in a longer movie it might start to grate...I don't know.
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Okay, since the new any%, I think SML2 is due for a 100% run. This means I will complete the A exit of every level. ( I call it the A exit because it is represented by the tile 4A in memory, alternatively, the 4B tile represents a secret exit, therefore, the B exit. Defeating a boss is equivalent to the A exit of a level as well, and getting the B exit on a boss will do absolutely nothing)
Should I make a glitched 100%, or a non glitched 100%?
If I make a non glitched 100% run, then there should be a third category which showcases relevant SML2 glitches, like the bell glitch, the pipe glitch, ect. Then what should this category be, and what restrictions should apply? What constitutes a glitch, or what glitched should be disallowed?
If I make a glitched run, should I do the new pixel trick? The new pixel trick involves repeatedly hopping, and if done right, saves one pixel per hop. Should I consider this a speed/entertainment tradeoff, or should I just go with it? Keep in mind tht a 100% run will be at least 25 minutes.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
There are multiple distinguishable categories here: "glitched any%" (the published run); "all golden coins" (which would allow any glitch to get to the coins themselves, and allow skipping of levels like Tree 3 and most of Macro Land); "all levels" (either exit on all levels, although some levels would have to be done twice in order to unlock other levels); "all exits". Additionally, the last two could allow either all glitches, or only a subset. I'm not sure if all levels and all exits would be substantially different, or even different at all (is there any level with multiple exits, where one of the exits doesn't unlock anything?).
As for which category to go for, I'd suggest all levels; there aren't that many secret levels, after all. I'd be inclined to allow all glitches but the pipe glitch (as the glitch that sets it apart from a large-skip game), together with any other glitch that allows Mario to go beyond the bounds of the level as a whole (going through a wall should be fair game, if there's a glitch that does that). The reasoning here is that there aren't very many bonus levels compared to the length of the game itself, and several of them are fun to watch (there's one autoscroller on the main map whose only purpose appears to be to get large combos for entertainment purposes). I also have no issues with the pixel tricks (either old or new), but perhaps that's because I like glitches which demonstrate those sorts of understanding of game mechanics; the only real annoyance that it causes is the chaotic behaviour of Mario's sprite.
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There is actually some weird differences between "all levels" and "all exits". "all levels" means getting at least the A exit in all of the levels, however "all exits" means getting the B exit in some levels as well. There are some differences here, for example, in the hippo/bubble stage, there is a secret exit which returns you to the entrance of that level. Similarly, through the pipe glitch or other out of bounds glitches (like the bat + bubble glitch, or the bee glitch), you can take the B exit in levels where you normally couldn't Normally, the B exit will do absolutely nothing, and return mario to the entrance to that level. Should these be included as exits that needs to be completed? say that they aren't. In tree zone 2 there is a B exit in the level. But if you take the B exit from the bee glitch or the pipe glitch in the bee level, you can access the bonus level as if you took the B exit in tree zone 2, so the B exit in the bee level is redundant to the B exit in tree zone 2. Taking the B exit in the bee level saves a bit of time in the route, so which one should I do?
Dillemmas like this don't exist when I say that I have to take at least the A exit in all levels (including secret/bonus ones). This part of the 100% definition was never really under debate, it's significantly easier to make a rock solid definition of 100% if it's "all levels" rather than "all exits"
As I already said, I wouldn't like to see the new pixel trick in the 100% run. And I don't think it should be using the pipe glitch to skip levels, nor the bell glitch (nor any other pause&quit glitch). The 100% run should show all the levels in their entirety.
A new any% isn't allowed to use the pipe glitch anymore. >_>
Maybe I'll work on any% and 100% routes sometime, though any% got pointless because all its levels will be in 100%.
"All golden coins" as a category:
Are you allowed to use the pipe glitch and grab every coin, then break 0xA2D5 to trigger the credits quickly? Maybe there is a way to get those coins in the garbage area? Maybe there will be other problems, too.
The 100% run should be an "all exits" run. The savegame already states the number of the completed levels and excluding Wario's castle, it's 31 (or 32?).
I'm not sure if all levels and all exits would be substantially different, or even different at all (is there any level with multiple exits, where one of the exits doesn't unlock anything?).
You can't reach secret levels without using secret exits in other levels...
I found that using a secret exit in Tree zone 3 (bee hive) by pipe glitching will send you to Tree Zone 2's secret level, but it takes too long to set up probably.
"All levels" should be all levels, so secret levels should be included, otherwise you have a semi-100% run...
As for which category to go for, I'd suggest all levels; there aren't that many secret levels, after all. I'd be inclined to allow all glitches but the pipe glitch (as the glitch that sets it apart from a large-skip game), together with any other glitch that allows Mario to go beyond the bounds of the level as a whole (going through a wall should be fair game, if there's a glitch that does that)
This reminds me that the category name "pipe glitch" should be renamed to something like "out of bounds glitch" or "glitched", because the pipe glitch is not the only out of bounds glitch after all. You could use the sprite-loading bug or bee hive oob glitch, those wouldn't be using the pipe glitch at all but wouldn't be different from the current run. Those other oob glitches can only be considered in the glitched category though - they won't be of any use in a full run.
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EDIT:
I have been complaining way too much lately, but this will be my final post on the category and obsoletion matter.
History of SML2 runs:
ISM's run --- no major glitches
Soulriver's first run --- no major glitches
Soulriver's second run --- pause & quit glitch to skip some of moon zone 2
andymac's any% run --- pixel trick; pause & quit glitch was used in a downward pipe to allow the pipe glitch
The pipe glitch is the 1st out of 3 known ways to enter the out of bounds area.
It was used to finish some levels quickly, by touching "level exit" tiles in the first two rows of garbage.
andymac's, MUGG's glitched run --- new pixel trick; pause & death was used with a downward pipe to allow the pipe glitch
This time around, the pipe glitch was used to enter the out of bounds area in order to reach a certain address, 0xA2D5. Breaking this address causes the next level that is entered to load the staff credits.
The 2nd out of bounds glitch works like this:
Have an object loading enemy (rock throwing ant, bat-summoning chibi dracula) stand slightly offscreen. They will cause more and more objects to load until the enemy slots are all used up. If all the objects are spawned now, you can cause Mario to zip downwards quickly, reaching the out of bounds area. In conjunction with the bubble glitch (sub form of pause & quit) or in moon zone 1, you can make Mario zip downwards quickly because the game's goes nuts. You can also reach the out of bounds area without a bubble by adjusting the screen cam so that Mario is almost on top of the screen, then have Mario jump on a bunch of enemies that were loaded at once (bats in pumpkin zone 1) and he will go offscreen.
The 3rd out of bounds glitch works like this:
Enter the bee hive level in tree zone. Have a bee enemy come down to the first room to the very beginning, and jump on it to reach the otherwise unreachable upper part of the left side of the room. From this point on, it's possible to reach the out of bounds area.
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Now the new glitched run was set to obsolete the any% run, for the reason that both used the pipe glitch and reaching the credits was a better implementation of the pipe glitch. However, there are negative aspects:
- We have yet to prove the legitimacy of the glitch route on a real gameboy
- The staff credits BGM is wrong. Some have expressed that the ending is like a "bad ending" due to the BGM being dull.
- The obsoletion itself removes the any% standard category completely. A glitchless any% would be pointless because all its levels would be in a 100% run anyway.
For these reasons, I dislike the obsoletion of the previous any% run.
About the category name "pipe glitch":
I think the name should be changed since the pipe glitch is 1) only a sub form of pause & quit glitch and 2) it doesn't take all the possible OoB glitches into account.
- The "pipe glitch" is only a sub form of the "pause & quit glitch". So maybe it would be a good idea to name the category "pause & quit glitch". Other categories will not be allowed to use that glitch.
- Or it could be "Ouf of bounds glitch" since it involves going out the bounds of the level. The difference in this category name is that a pipeglitch less category can still use the bell glitch (sub form of pause & quit glitch) in moon zone 2 to save time.
- The category name could also be "glitched" since it beats the game in only 2 minutes wheras the old any% run plays through the whole game.
- Maybe the category name could for the glitched run could be "memory manipulation".
The last two of these would support the separation of the previous any% and the new glitched run.
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"memory manipulation" sounds good to me. It's what really separates this last run from the previous runs.
It also defines what I think is the key break between beating the game quickly using some glitches, and beating the game practically instantly.
I think general use of the bell glitch or pipe glitch to beat a single level quickly is fine for a "standard" run. While, getting the game end almost instantly, or quickly grabbing up the 6 golden coins to be to be an overly "glitched" run.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I'm fine with the old pixel trick in the new runs. But the new pixel trick just sucks to look at. We want entertaining movies, not dull-looking and annoying ones... There is so much you can do gameplay wise in SML2, so it's stupid to be restricted to bunny hopping.
Honestly, I will vote meh or no on a movie that uses the new pixel trick in a full game run.
I'm fine with the old pixel trick in the new runs. But the new pixel trick just sucks to look at. We want entertaining movies, not dull-looking and annoying ones... There is so much you can do gameplay wise in SML2, so it's stupid to be restricted to bunny hopping.
Honestly, I will vote meh or no on a movie that uses the new pixel trick in a full game run.
I know, but it will cause an outroar if the new trick gets used and ends up rejected. =(
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I think this pause glitch may be able to make the game completed quicker than the current run. I think we may be able to complete the game earlier with some extremely good luck. How it's done is to make the CPU execute either one of these four instructions, and we'll be able to get to the credits. So far we have been able to get the pause glitch to execute random, misaligned parts of memory:
08 D5 A2 (assuming SP !=0)
EA D5 A2 (assuming the register A != 0 )
02 (assuming BC = D5 A2)
12 (assuming DE = D5 A2)
We should be able to do this with a bit of extreme luck. There might be other ways, like changing mario's position to be close to the credits block early, or something along those lines.
Honestly, I will vote meh or no on a movie that uses the new pixel trick in a full game run.
I would do the same on a movie where the player doesn't use the new pixel trick. I am probably in the minority in this case, but I think like a speedrunner and can't help it.
andymac wrote:
We should be able to do this with a bit of extreme luck. There might be other ways, like changing mario's position to be close to the credits block early, or something along those lines.
Do you plan on looking into it?
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I'm fine with the old pixel trick in the new runs. But the new pixel trick just sucks to look at. We want entertaining movies, not dull-looking and annoying ones... There is so much you can do gameplay wise in SML2, so it's stupid to be restricted to bunny hopping.
Honestly, I will vote meh or no on a movie that uses the new pixel trick in a full game run.
Sure, it's a pitty that this trick will make the run a lot more monotonous than it would have to be. But leaving that trick out is just so arbitrary a restriction that I guess it'd only work for a playaround movie. It's bad luck, but in my opinion we just need to accept games the way they are and if this happens to be the fastest way of movement, then there's no way around but to use it.
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Okay, I noticed that at first, the category for this game was "glitched" and it didn't obsolete the old any%. Then someone changed the category to "pipe glitch", and obsoleted the old any%. Then it was changed again to "Memory manipulation" and the older any% was republished. After that, the category changed back to "glitched" and the old movie was obsoleted again. What is going on? Just chose one way and stick with it. By the way, I am going to do a 100% glitched with the new pixel trick because that's what most people seem to want, when I asked on IRC (sorry MUGG).
Today I wanted to check if 0xA2D5 changes at all during a normal playthrough. So I took #2728: andymac's GB Super Mario Land 2 - 6 Golden Coins in 21:43.52 and checked it for changes to 0xA2D5. However, only in the first two frames after power-on it's -1 (as is everything else in A000~BFFF). I noticed RAM doesn't get cleared like that at all if you reload the ROM or hard-reset/soft-reset... So changing 0xa2d5 is more like screwing up the game engine and glitching to the next scene which happens to be the credits instead of setting the end-credits "flag".
So changing 0xa2d5 is more like screwing up the game engine and glitching to the next scene which happens to be the credits instead of setting the end-credits "flag".
Does that still count as "beating" the game? I'm planning to do something similar in another game, so I want to know.
Found a possible improvement for the glitched run. In the first level, take a shell, approach a pipe and throw the shell in a way that it will kill you while entering the pipe. Re-enter the level and finish it early.
