Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3577)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
DarkKobold wrote:
I don't believe we should be making light of bans.
I am sending Kumquat this message.
Hi Kumquat,
While we can't specifically prevent XKeeper from participating, I will not give any credence to his participation while his ban persists. He is a banned user, and therefore not allowed to participate in any site activity.
However, that said, he knows quite well why he is banned. Additionally, unlike other troublesome users, he is not perma-banned. If he would grow up, sincerely apologize for his bullying behavior towards adelikat, he would most likely be unbanned. I doubt this will happen, he appears far too obstinate and prideful to apologize; however, I would like to be surprised. Last time I conversed with him, he appeared to have understood our position.
If you are curious yourself why he is banned, during his tenure here, he continually harped on the work done by site administrators, while providing nothing of positive value. Specifically, but not limited to, his derision towards adelikat's need for funding while providing no support, his consistent mocking of FCEUX bugs while, as a competent coder, providing no help to the source code maintained by volunteers, and his shitting on the workbench to prove some unnecessary point. This consistent, negative, and abusive attitude had gone too far.
Thank you for your understanding, I would like to see XKeeper return to the community as a positive force.
DarkKobold
This came up in the Dream Team Contest. And I wanted to clarify a situation that is overdue.
For the record, I'm much less concerned about his derision towards me, and more concerned about his derision to the rest of the community. His negative & abusive attitude is also to TASers, coders, and others who volunteer their time and hard work. I was sick of seeing him disrespect the entire community often in situations where everybody is enjoying themselves. I made the decision that silencing his forum posting was necessary as it was a drain on the users who make a positive contribution to the community.
The trigger for the ban at the time though was he was voting no on every submission. When confronted on the behavior he basically indicated that his motivations were for the fun of seeing people get upset. This is typical of Xkeeper, he makes it clear that he hates the community, and the site. He uses every opportunity to degrade TASVideos.
The ban was because I'm tired of seeing this behavior.
At the time, I banned him from the forums. He was not banned from IRC. I did ban him from the wiki (thus preventing submissions). Honestly, I was under the impression that I did not do that, but I did. Now that I am aware, I've restored that ability.
I should have communicated this ban to him and the community given that he was a long time active member of the community. Frankly, I was pretty pissed off at the time and very much distaste talking to him in general. But it was wrong of me to avoid the issue, and I apologize.
As for the dream team contest, I think it would be perfectly fine for him to participate, if that is what he chooses. And he is free to contribute submissions in the future.
As for my motivations, I browsed some xkeeper posts and here are some examples of behaviors that motivated my decision. It is by no means exhaustive because I'd rather not dig around in ~2000 posts.
Encoding discussion
Contributing nothing to the discussion other than laughing at the community
FCEUX bug report
Wow, a bug in an open source project that people donate their free time to. Rather than reporting an issue he would rather complain about how the coder "fucked up". Note: Xkeeper is a talented coder and is more than capable of trying to fix such bugs or at least look into what the cause might be. But it isn't his problem, it is someone else's problem and if they don't do it, then that means they are an idiot, incompetent, etc. It particularly angers me to see someone use something people created for free in their own time, and then show gratitude whatsoever, and then berate them when the code doesn't work the way he would like. It is hard to find good help with emulators, getting this kind of royal treatment doesn't help.
Site feature discussion
Of course any bug in the site is unacceptable, the site is mismanaged and the decisions are retarded. Was there a suggestion of what might be a better solution? A volunteer to help out with the coding? (again, xkeeper is more than capable of website coding & design) Or was it at least a polite comment? Of course not.
SMB PAL submission
Nothing particularly egregious here but a good example of what most xkeeper posts are like. His way of expressing disagreement is to berate those who disagree. Yes, I have no room to be disappointed because everything on the site ever is a run to the right game. Let's belittle the administrator, the content of the site, and community in general all at once.
SMB PAL submission
The usual berating of community members. Classy.
Tetris DS submission
Helpful
The site is going downhill
I could load this post up with these types of examples and across 6 years of posting. Apparently 6 years the site has been going down hill. And along with that is the usual berating of the community as a whole. Honestly this is the main reason for my decision. I've been hearing this attitude for too long, and frankly tired of it. This is more than enough time to accept how things are or do something else with your free time.
None of these posts in and of themselves is against the rules or ban worthy. I recognize that. As a whole, it is a constant stream of derision that is draining.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3577)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
The post is merely informative. My intent was not to elicit conversation (feel free to discuss if that suits you though). There was a lot of questions & confusion regarding the situation and I felt it was right to inform people of what was going on.
I should have discussed it when it happened, but better late than never I guess.
Politeness, n. The most acceptable hypocrisy.
-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
:)
I understand you are trying to be cute... however....
There isn't a exactly a fine line between abusive and being polite. You can be impolite without being derogatory, abusive, condescending, ungrateful, and disrespectful.
We don't require users practice the finer rules of etiquette. However, when a users modus operandi consists of taking a shit on the numerous volunteers who make this site operate, we will take notice. People work hard to encode videos, code emulators, code this site, make TASes for us to watch, upkeep the wiki, and etc. When the majority of comments from a user are vitriol towards these volunteers, we have every right to take action, and remove negative and useless voices from this site, and will continue to do so.
Oh, I almost forgot....
:)
...because that makes it acceptable.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Hi DK,
I understand that you think I'm being critical, but really I'm trying to convey to people that "hypocritically" veiling dissent with a less-combative ("polite") tone goes a long way. In all of adelikat's examples, I think different wording on the part of Xkeeper would find him in a less-banned state today.
I like to think that I have shit on you but I try to be tactful about it! Hopefully that means that no one thinks I have been shitting on you, because I am subtle about it.
:)
Non-shittingly yours,
Alden
PS You guys are really doing a bang-up job and I hope that you continue to selflessly contribute your time to this great site! Even if I disagree on some of the finer points. :)
Thanks for the clarification. Glad to see Adelikat is more reasonable admin than DarkKobold! I guess tech guys simply can't into gentleness (me too).
So I'll just repeat old proposal:
1. Bans should be public. It's as easy as creating one forum topic (in "Sites") with list of banned users in the first post.
2. Forum banning shouldn't automatically cause site banning/IRC banning and so on. These activities are too different.
3. Perma-bans are ruthless, they should only be applied to trolls (it's similar to deleting user account), not to vested members and contributors/TASers.
4. General guideline: bans should be as rare as possible. Once for a moment I had the felling that DK is gonna ban Warp, glad it didn't happen, but the whole atmosphere of admin rampage is not healthy for communities.
5. :)
Hi DK,
I understand that you think I'm being critical, but really I'm trying to convey to people that "hypocritically" veiling dissent with a less-combative ("polite") tone goes a long way. In all of adelikat's examples, I think different wording on the part of Xkeeper would find him in a less-banned state today.
I like to think that I have shit on you but I try to be tactful about it! Hopefully that means that no one thinks I have been shitting on you, because I am subtle about it.
:)
Non-shittingly yours,
Alden
PS You guys are really doing a bang-up job and I hope that you continue to selflessly contribute your time to this great site! Even if I disagree on some of the finer points. :)
Sorry, I misinterpreted your quote. I interpreted it as saying that 'requiring politeness is an acceptable hypocrisy, and thus people saying things impolitely should be ignored' Good thing I didn't try for an English Lit degree, me fail english. I was angry, because I believed you were defending his actions and mannerisms. Sorry for that.
I think it is more simple, just respect the contributions of others. If you do that, then your speech won't be permeated by negativity. Also, if you have been shitting on me, I haven't noticed. I was wondering why I smelled bad.
AnS wrote:
1. Bans should be public. It's as easy as creating one forum topic (in "Sites") with list of banned users in the first post.
Its been said before, we won't create a high-score list for banned members; especially given that A) there is generally a topic for each banned member, B) we want to discourage ban-able activity, not make it an achievement.
Bisqwit wrote:
Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer. I'm not sure how exactly it fits here, but that's what I was thinking.
Calling banned people enemies is a stretch; we aren't at war with them. We just want them to go away. Also, especially in XKeeper's case, if he apologized, and promised to be more respectful going forward, he'd be allowed back.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
I assume xkeeper was warned before being banned, so that an opportunity to change his behavior was given to him... Or did the ban simply came out of the blue? (And by warning I mean a clear one, like "please stop this kind of behavior or you will be banned", rather than just "please stop this kind of behavior".)
I think that for fairness people should be given the opportunity to correct their behavior before punishing them.
I assume xkeeper was warned before being banned, so that an opportunity to change his behavior was given to him... Or did the ban simply came out of the blue? (And by warning I mean a clear one, like "please stop this kind of behavior or you will be banned", rather than just "please stop this kind of behavior".)
I think that for fairness people should be given the opportunity to correct their behavior before punishing them.
I apologize -- I purposefully chose a difficult quote from one of my favorite pundits.
In regards to shitting upon "you" -- well, I meant "you all" as in tasvideos, not DarkKobold in particular (I happen to think you are a pretty cool guy). I share many of the same gripes as Xkeeper but clearly I have been tactful enough not to be in the crosshairs of the administration.
So, anyway, this thread is p. much useless. But informative!
Thanks for posting this topic, adelikat. I was wondering why he was banned.
Do you think an mmarks topic could be made? I'd be interested to learn why he was banned.
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
CoolKirby wrote:
Do you think an mmarks topic could be made? I'd be interested to learn why he was banned.
From what I gather, he submitted a fair amount of garbage to the Workbench under multiple pseudonyms. I can't really remember it too much (it's been yonks), but I'm certain that's why.
Thanks for posting this topic, adelikat. I was wondering why he was banned.
Do you think an mmarks topic could be made? I'd be interested to learn why he was banned.
Here.
Also, we try and keep these 'ban threads' from being a source of drama. While, yes, it is a curiosity, it really isn't relevant to users. (multiple accounts are already against the rules, so yeah, five million accounts is severely against the rules.)
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
That's not a personal warning given just prior to the ban. Does this mean the ban did come out of the blue, without warning?
Edit: Is this the official stance? If you misbehave long enough, you are banned without warning?
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
Warp wrote:
Edit: Is this the official stance? If you misbehave long enough, you are banned without warning?
I've been warned plenty of times. I'm pretty sure you're given a few warnings before you're banned for an amount of time.
I do assume it'd vary from person to person though.
Joined: 7/30/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Watching a TAS in the basement...
I know many people have said this already, but a good reason to make bans public is because it sets an example of what not to do.
I know it sounds kind of assish, but I don't mean to be that way.
I think it's logical that unhelpful or even disruptive/destructive reactions and behaviour is not accepted anywhere in the world... You know, I'm talking about communites like TASVideos that made up by several other people who registered here to the forum to get more informations about speedruns concerning the TAS area. The site is about being "nice" and "pedagogic", everybody can understand and learn what We, the TASVideos members make and do anytime anywhere.
So... I don't think anybody would afford more time for being nice to non helpful members... Okay, Warp?
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
As ive been lurking for more than 4 years now, i have to say that xkeepers posts seemed to be more ironic and/ or chastening to me
He definitly has a point concerning what the site is becoming and even though his style in making his point clear is very harsh and offending it still is an aspect and a viewpoint
I agree with this ban regarding to the site/ forum rules and definitely agree to adelikats (first) post but xkeeper is still a part of the community and i would appreciate if he apologizes and adapts his style in a way this site deserves
Thats my point
How should I know what I think before I read what I post?
I think it's logical that unhelpful or even disruptive/destructive reactions and behaviour is not accepted anywhere in the world... You know, I'm talking about communites like TASVideos that made up by several other people who registered here to the forum to get more informations about speedruns concerning the TAS area. The site is about being "nice" and "pedagogic", everybody can understand and learn what We, the TASVideos members make and do anytime anywhere.
So... I don't think anybody would afford more time for being nice to non helpful members... Okay, Warp?
I'm not exactly sure what you are asking.
I was not objecting to the ban or its reasoning. I was simply asking if he was personally warned before executing the ban, giving him an opportunity to change his misbehavior, which I think would have been fair.
Joined: 7/30/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Watching a TAS in the basement...
Warp wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
I think it's logical that unhelpful or even disruptive/destructive reactions and behaviour is not accepted anywhere in the world... You know, I'm talking about communites like TASVideos that made up by several other people who registered here to the forum to get more informations about speedruns concerning the TAS area. The site is about being "nice" and "pedagogic", everybody can understand and learn what We, the TASVideos members make and do anytime anywhere.
So... I don't think anybody would afford more time for being nice to non helpful members... Okay, Warp?
I'm not exactly sure what you are asking.
I was not objecting to the ban or its reasoning. I was simply asking if he was personally warned before executing the ban, giving him an opportunity to change his misbehavior, which I think would have been fair.
He was saying that Xkeeper was too disruptive to deserve a warning... I think.
Personally, I don't agree with this view and instead agree with Warp's idea that people should be warned before a ban.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
TASManiac, do you really need 3 identical posts? ;)
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
