This could save a bit of running early in the run, im gonna have to look into it, theres 2 locked door that could get troublesome if you dont get the chemical "normal way", if it work that could potentially save _lot_ of time.
Ill not be super happy to redo those rooms (we are up to room 44/178 already...) but this could be a huge time saver so ill investigate closely and we will use it if revelant.
Im not sure how this would affect barry/richard behaviors, given we would not explore a whole wing of the house in the begin.
(the question is basicly does barry will give the acid rounds)
If you have more like that be sure to post it ! :p
Edit: could you detail the trick a bit more, what side im suppose to go with ? how long its suppose to take ? is it limited to a particular version of the game ? so far im not able to pull it real time and it seem the plant does damage you quite a lot. (any scratch later will kill ya, fortunatly enought we have a aid spray but im not sure if it would downgrade the end ranking, anyway)
Edit2: oh well i could do it after fucking with the plant for few hours, this is dumb trick really, im not sure why or how it work, the closest thing i can think off is wolf rise in sotn lol, it would seem you gain a few pixels in between each hits of the plant, i have no idea how quick this can be done, but its likely to save time, nice trick. Now im just annoyed by the lack of ammo for bosses but ill find a way to deal with it.
Edit3: for reference, we get to the crest door with 58 doors vs 64 in the "old" route, so the trick save 6 door, it also save a pickup and avoid meeting barry (it actually take forever to speak to him), doing snake+plant with just 6 round sound very tricky, and it assume we use gun on zombie guarding the statue, maybe an extra pick up will be required in guardhouse or something like that, any idea where we should get some grenades ? (before snake boss, obviously) ideally without requiring to open extra doors...
So, let's discuss the macro of skipping the tentacles if it's indeed possible; I tried it on console just now. I got whipped to death when I tried, but if you could figure out how the clipping works, it could be possible.
If you don't pick up the Chemical, you will be forced to take the long way around via 1F when you pick up the crest from the Statue room; the door next to the stairwell will be locked.
It takes Richard 15 minutes to die. There's absolutely no avoiding him in a Jill speedrun unfortunately.
In Event Set B for Jill:
1. Barry will not give you Acid Rounds. Yawn will have to be fought with something else.
2. Barry would be next to Forrest. You have to grab the bazooka first anyway in order to do the 2F dining room properly, so this is negligible.
3. The final Barry change relevant to this run will be in the guardhouse, where there's a cutscene before you enter 002 and a cutscene when you enter 002. Examine the 002 door before you get the 002 key, and the cutscene when you enter 002 won't be there.
Also, arukAdo, what one person may know, another person may not; Chris's scenario can be completed sub-hour on console.
EDIT: Even so, let's think about this a little more; with all the radical route changes, would there be any time saved at all with all the whipping? I'm really starting to have my doubts.
I think we can safely assume that both chris and jill should be published, the fastest between them not forcably important.
So i had to make tests for all this, because like you just pointed out, it change a _lot_ of stuffs.
(theres on svn a successfully mega sloopy attempt at the skip/route)
Ive tryed to simply calculate how long are the cutscene, but this is what happen.
Barry dont give us acid round, this doesnt matter up to snake, it take 5 grenade + 5 bullet to kill plant. (shooting 5 bullet on plant will be better than using gun on the zombie guarding the blue crystal statue)
You can skip the dialogue with bazooka by going to bazooka right after you split with barry (room5 that is), then you rush for armor key.
In the guardhouse... you get 2 extra cutscene with barry. You still have to listen to wesker.
Barry Acid Rounds cutscene last ~1:10, and it take ~1:00 for barry to kill plant42, the 2 extra cutscene are apparently ~1:40.
Logic dictate its better to go that way, 6 less room to explore (minus the extra ammo pickup) on top of the ~30sec gain and shortcut to armor key, ive tested up to tyran and everything else work strictly the same.
If you say we can remove the second cutscene (the longest, around 1min long), then this is without hesitation the fastest.
The question persist, what is the best option to get the ammo needed for the snake, we have the choice of save room in guardhouse or the save room where there was the chemical bag, unless im missing an obvious other.
Joined: 4/2/2009
Posts: 376
Location: Porto Alegre - Brazil
I would like to know the reason no one has tried to do a Chris run, (sub-optimal character?) ... and why is this topic still on the play1 section when the DS version can jump dialogues and door transitions, cutting 55% of the parts everyone knows and want to skip?
Ive been given unofficial clearance to do that run on psx (according to the DS judgement), theres many factors but full screen and nostalgia value are the most important i think, im sure youll have plenty occasion to voice what you feel is right when submision hit the bench.
On the version matter i can tell the game is very sync friendly, its likely possible to sync on dual shock version for exemple, given you insert some blank frame for the extra "this game contain gore", i have no direct proof yet but its probable, the first release wont sync due to the lack of autoaim allthought.
So back on topic, well we managed to skip the plant with as low as 4 hits (so its _very_ fast).
Im still awaiting our experts to tell me what is the best option for ammo to pick up before the snake, im inclined to think guardhouse saveroom is the best since it should avoid me using the gun on plant, but im not sure if theres better available.
Now of course if the snake doesnt die with 5 explosive im gonna get depressed, but it seemed to me original mode doesnt care at all the ammo types (all others boss arent affected)
What's the fastest you've been able get by the tentacle? specifically timed pauses for this might help too.
I thought I remembered there being a flame round in the guardhouse which was hardly out your way at all. In looking at speed guides on gamefaqs they seem to say to get a flame round in room 003 which is branched off the dormitory right before you fight plant 42.
This cinema flow chart for jill may be of use:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/198454-resident-evil/faqs/62268
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 4/2/2009
Posts: 376
Location: Porto Alegre - Brazil
I was actually curious of what would be the optimal route with Chris, because I was replaying a little, and just happened to remember that Rebecca can be first found on Richard scene too, instead of the serum room, ... but the sword key is there, maybe I just don't have the tools to calculate, .. desmume is having a hard time playing on my PC, anyway x_x
(And play1 emulation just won't happen here) x__x'
Im not sure about chris route, been forever i havent played him.
Spider: well we take only 4 hits from the plant to catch the key, so it take maybe 5 seconds or so. (maybe that improvable but we havent managed to do better)
Ill look into room 003 if theres flame rounds then we are all set i guess, any better suggestion?
Also, that link cinematic flow chart suggest that skipping the barry meeting in guardhouse would lead to barry kill the plant, this may not be the best option (will probly require a test, killing it ourselves might be faster).
Edit: as far as i can tell, we reach the serum room opening 9 less doors, almost 3min earlier than with previous route (and we was 20 second ahead the canceled run), now of course ill loose ~40sec in guardhouse and loose (?) some when going first floor right wing, since after richard i cant use the back stairs.
I think this is pretty nice.
For those interrested SVN logs are here and direct download are here.
Jill.pjm is the current run
Edit2: the flamme ammo in 003 are in the closet and theres a zombie inside, this may not be any faster than the save room. any better option ?
He shouldn't be in excess of grenades by the time he fights Yawn. I expect him to have expended all of his grenades. Using the handgun would probably be faster than grabbing those Flame Rounds. 14-15 bullets in US version is what it takes to kill Yawn.
The route for Chris is outlined here:
http://www.archive.org/details/ResidentEvilDC_Chris_SS_5804
Once again, the DS version and the PSX version, while they are fundamentally the same game, are completely different from a speedrunning perspective since there's new models and new AI for everything.
Well i was about to make a long post to explain the cons and pro of the choices we are given here.
But after thinking about it, im gonna make assumptions and say that barry will kill the plant faster than us (mainly because it mean to grab extra grenade to defeat it, and his long extra dialogue), so we are going to mix gun and the 2 grenades left for the snake, your idea seem the most logic, i made test he dont die with 15 bullet but with 2 nades on top he does.
I also decided to use the aid spray earlier in the run (lion statue), this mean i dont need to access the chest anymore (dont have acid rounds...), we did store gun/knife previously so i had to resync all this, taking damage at the snake (may happen) will not be a problem, also he doesnt seem to poison you in that fight.
Note: rapid shooting in this game work (like re3 basicly) yet its not very applyable, everything seem to have a recovery timer long enought so damage will not register (for the gun at least).
Huh, I thought it took 15 bullets in the US version. I saw a Chris run by LucianoRX on Archive that took Yawn down with Handgun Bullets, but I guess that's kinda dated.
Which version of the game are you running? Black Label Director's Cut, or Dual Shock? I'm pretty sure Dual Shock has better loading due to better sector reads on the disc, but that shouldn't matter in the case of an ISO.
Another reason I ask is that I'm sure you've played around with both the Japanese and American versions of RE3 and have noticed that you can skip FMVs faster on the Japanese version regardless of loading times. I no longer own a physical copy of Director's Cut Dual Shock, so I'm not sure if there are specific ending FMVs you can skip that you couldn't on Black Label.
To my knowledge, the rapid fire trick works in every RE game prior to RE4. I've seen it used in REmake before.
Erh sry saw you went on IRC but unfortunatly i was in bed already, next time maybe :p
(tips: the morning isnt exactly the best time)
We use the DC version, DS have the screen "This game contain gore", so its a lot slower and yeah, all iso run at same speed (lol).
Ultimatly, the game is sync friendly, this mean we can add some blank and actually DS will sync.
Note also using analog is totally useless, so we dont.
The main gain in re3 of jap version versus the us one is texts (shorter in japanesse so quicker to skip) more than fmv skiping, also bosses have less hp in jap version.
This is likely the same for re1, yet remember that the canceled movie wasnt very precise so if you watched it you can except some serious differences with the current material we have, as far as i can tell fmv are lasting only for 1 frame here before you can cut them off.
I know it can matter where you hit certain enemies, like a direct flame round hit to the center of plant 42 will kill it, same with the giant spider boss, but hits to their 'limbs' don't. Chris might also do slightly more damage than Jill with his attacks in general.
I'd time the differences between all plausible options to be sure. It's pretty easy to have a large over or under estimation.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Erh sry saw you went on IRC but unfortunatly i was in bed already, next time maybe :p
(tips: the morning isnt exactly the best time)
Yeah, sure did. Mainly wanted to ask which version of the game you were using in particular so I could play it back and see what you had so far. English isn't your mother tongue and I don't know where you're from, so I asked after you in IRC regardless =p
We use the DC version, DS have the screen "This game contain gore", so its a lot slower and yeah, all iso run at same speed (lol).
Ultimatly, the game is sync friendly, this mean we can add some blank and actually DS will sync.
Note also using analog is totally useless, so we dont.
So I can pretty much load your WIP with a direct rip of my own discs? I don't use emulators often, let-alone play back TASes. Usually I wait for the AVI, but I'm very knowledgeable about RE1 in particular, and I'd like to help where I can.
The main gain in re3 of jap version versus the us one is texts (shorter in japanesse so quicker to skip) more than fmv skiping, also bosses have less hp in jap version.
I could have told you that =p
This is likely the same for re1, yet remember that the canceled movie wasnt very precise so if you watched it you can except some serious differences with the current material we have, as far as i can tell fmv are lasting only for 1 frame here before you can cut them off.
I helped AjAX with his attempt. Since it was just us working on the project, I helped him with the route and pointed out a few subtle things. The fact that you'd already saved that many frames and managed to skip the plant without the chemical was mind-boggling to say the least.
Can you tell me more about the plant skip? It's the first sequence break in the series prior to RE4.
Also, Spider-Waffle, last I checked, it took 3 Flame Rounds to kill Plant 42. Chris doesn't cause any more damage than Jill, either; the only differences between the two are the angle at which they swipe their combat knife, size, and overall health.
For those who cant watch the movie or too lazy, i encoded the current progress
Link to video
The encode sux a little but oh well, this is ~ 2min20sec faster by the last door
Also, Spider-Waffle, last I checked, it took 3 Flame Rounds to kill Plant 42. Chris doesn't cause any more damage than Jill, either; the only differences between the two are the angle at which they swipe their combat knife, size, and overall health.
Maybe that's only if you V-jolt it then, but I'm pretty sure in some set of circumstances it dies in one hit.
Does it take longer to avoid hearing that conversation through the door, or why was that done?
Run looks a lot better now, things like running to the nearest corner of the 'open door' entities instead of the middle stand out a lot.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Does it take longer to avoid hearing that conversation through the door, or why was that done?
You cant avoid it afaik, we avoid the cutscene _inside_ 002 but we cant avoid the _outside_ one, seem to be direct result of avoiding the meeting with barry in the mansion hall (giving acid rounds)
And thx for the comment, glad you like the run ;)
To be fair i have to say ajax's run is getting better once we get back in the mansion, but we are still racking up some frames so its quite hard to make an estimation of the ending time, might drop to 57min if it keep on the same pace.
Edit: Spider-Waffle was again right about damage, while fighting snake i did smell something fishy with damage, so i search for the boss hp, its impossible to register max damage if you unload all ammo on the boss right away, to be more specific, grenades are able to do up to 80dmg (havent checked yet acids) but if you shoot 2 grenades in a row the others are likely to do 15 damage, the boss have a weakness momentum or a recovery timer (that would still allow damage, but lower them).
The plant may behave the same, ill have to make tests but it might be possible to save a grenade there if it would be same than snake.
Sure does, antd. It sure does.
Where did you find these HP values? Did you watch memory values or something? I'd like to know what the values are, for my own personal reference.
Damage on snake (400HP)
Acid max 130 min 80
Explosive max 80 min 15
Gun max 30 min 15
In the canceled run in order damage are 80-130-80-80-80.
The address seem to be variable so it would change on any runs.
This isnt a easy boss with the equipment we have, we are forced to do max damage with the 2 grenades, and we have to do max damage with gun twice. (2x30 - 13x15 - 2x80)
So far we are loosing 10 seconds on the boss, but i think this can be reduced by taking damage, we are forcably going to be slower on this thought.
Note the boss have to take over 400 damage or it doesnt die.
Edit: well actually taking damage didnt helped much, this is a hard boss with our limited equipment, also it would seem you have limited oppertunities to do max damage, dont really see how to improve it, doors are like 5 seconds each so going for more ammo isnt worth it.
We are still 2:17 ahead of canceled run after the snake.
Right could be done with 4 acids, but since you are just unloading everything as fast as possible, its unlikely to do 130 damage twice in a row, and yeah im speaking of US DC, its slus00551.
This is more important with explosive because of huge damage drop (basicly equal to gun normal damage)
Edit: this also explain how zombies dont always die with the same ammount of bullets, there could be a max/min with many monsters.
Edit2: well we got in troubles for caverns, we get full inventory for second medal, so we had to go backward and use the chest in serum room... dump knife and spray... lost a second and half but thats better than going for acid or some other option requiring to open doors.
