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Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
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Bezman wrote:
Mario 64 should regain its star. Seriously, I just checked the list and was confused by the omission. What happened? What was the thought process?
IIRC Mario 64 0-star's star wasn't inherited because of questionable camera work. It's faster than the previous run, and that was the major reason it was accepted (there were other reasons as well), but whether it was more recommendable, or recommendable to newbies at all, was rather heatedly debated over the course of the discussion surrounding it. And since we don't recommend obsolete movies, it turned out that way.
Bezman wrote:
The list has too many 2D platformers/2D action games and maybe too many long movies. I understand that the 2D games may be where lots of technical tricks can be done but as an 'outsider', it just seems a bit repetitive and a newcomer may feel that these kinds of games are all the site offers. Yes, MM has completely different tricks than Sonic or Castlevania but having more games of completely different genres or styles would show more diversity and get folk more excited. I would suggest dropping a couple of the 2D action-platformers for Mario 64 and King's Bounty.
Genre-diversity for the sake of genre-diversity is by itself hardly a good reason. I'd say most of the genres (at least all the major ones I'm aware of) are pretty well represented on the site, and it just so happens that the most fast-paced or creatively glitched games tend to be 2D platformers. Besides, they're usually the easiest ones to track without prior knowledge of the game due to being simple in their nature and premises (which is something that can't be said about, say, RPGs, strategies, different kinds of adventure games, etc.). This ease of tracking is a very important factor in recommending a TAS of a game to people with no assumed knowledge of it.
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Bezman wrote:
The list has too many 2D platformers/2D action games and maybe too many long movies. I understand that the 2D games may be where lots of technical tricks can be done but as an 'outsider', it just seems a bit repetitive and a newcomer may feel that these kinds of games are all the site offers. Yes, MM has completely different tricks than Sonic or Castlevania but having more games of completely different genres or styles would show more diversity and get folk more excited. I would suggest dropping a couple of the 2D action-platformers for Mario 64 and King's Bounty.
Thats basically what I was talking about for the authors. If we had more author-diversity, It would show not only great TASes to recommend to first time users, but it would also show that any genuine person could make an amazing TAS if they tried. However, I do see what you mean by more genre-diversity. Its just a shame that most proposed TASes to be starred are commonly platformers. Thats not really a bad thing but its someeting that could probably be improved on. And on that note: [1833] MSX Knightmare 2: The Maze of Galious by zggzdydp & scrimpeh in 25:04.67 This is probably the best that we have for the MSX as of now. It has a fast pace, neat TAS tricks, great item usage & amazing planning of a very well known game.
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I'd say that the reason why non-2D-platformers are underrepresented in the starred movie list is simply because they are underrepresented in old console games overall. Probably at least 90% of old console games are 2D platformers, so it's not surprising that the majority of good games (including from the point of view of TASing) are also 2D platformers. Of course there's merit in the suggestion in that the star list should contain relatively more non-2D-platformers than there are TASes of. However, from a pragmatic point of view their proportion should not be artificially overinflated to the point of detriment.
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In addition to be long and super exciting, the run also would be confusing and make no sense to a first time viewer, even if they are familiar with the game. Requiring a first time viewer to read a submission text in order to get the entertainment value out of the run is a bad idea imo. Welcome to TASoreos! Please read this textbook before watching the run (and then read it again because you'll still be confused!) that we think you should watch first! Oh what, you're leaving?! :(
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I have to agree with sgrunt there. While it is a great TAS, a lot of people will not sit through it, and I think it's therefore not a good idea to recommend it. This is a bit related to Bezman's post: I don't think TASes have to be short to have a star, but they must be able to hold one's attention. Like moozooh said, the latest Mario 64 0 star movie had quite a bit of discussion surrounding it (related to its camera positioning and the very small timewise improvement), which is why it was decided that it should not automatically get the star from the obsoleted movie. After seeing the new 120 star wip, I personally think that movie would be a lot more suitable for the star... but it could take some time before it is finished.
Sonikkustar wrote:
This is probably the best that we have for the MSX as of now.
That can of course not be the reason for giving it a star. I don't know if the tricks and strategies stand out above the other runs on the site to warrant a star. A run being audiovisually pleasing is also important, especially to people who do not know the game. About the Metal Slug suggestions... how does it stand up against Genesis Gunstar Heroes (A shooter that is similar in some ways) or The Simpsons. Would it be preferable if Metal slug takes one of these stars? Why? Why not? About the 2D platformers... they are indeed generally good star candidates. You'll have to be more specific if you think the amount of 2D TASes in the starlist should be lower; is there any particular one that should not have a star? Something that may balance this slightly: I was planning on giving Zelda:MM a (new) star when it gets published. It shows inventive solutions throughout the run and high quality play. Any opinions on this?
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I had thought that OoT was starred, but that's apparently not the case (and probably shouldn't be due to the cutscene-to-gameplay ratio). I think an argument could be made that MM is a better candidate due to packing in more gameplay and showing off a wide(r) variety of glitches.
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I'm not very familiar with it, but it would probably be a good choice. Re: Metal Slug, it's basically a paragon of amazing pixel art with regards to being visually pleasing, and sound work is pretty great as well. Gameplay is reasonably fast and varied (this series is more about shooting than, say, Contra which is more about platforming). I'd have to watch all of the MS TASes made thus far to be sure which would be the recommendable one. Gunstar Heroes is notably different gameplay-wise: it has a lot more platforming trickery (including optimization of forward movement that makes it faster than unassisted runs just by that virtue), several unique TAS-only tricks like writing text with flame chaser, and the game itself is much more of a tech demo showing off Genesis's abilities compared to Metal Slug which is a honed, comercially successful arcade title. I don't think they are very comparable.
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Gunstar certainly has more movement optimization than Metal Slug does. However, it's not as pretty (naturally) and doesn't have much variety in the way of enemies. Most of the TAS interest comes from playing around during deadtime, of which there's unfortunately a decently large amount. The bosses are all handled in one of two ways, too -- either just shooting while dodging attacks, or partner throwing. Metal Slug in contrast has less flexibility with attacking (you can only shoot in 4 directions normally, and you have less room to dodge), so bossfights are a bit more involved. It also has resource management to ensure there's enough ammo and grenades. Of the Metal Slug games we have runs for, I'd have to say that X or 3 would be the best choices to star (assuming any get starred). MS1 is comparatively pretty primitive, prone to lag, and less imaginative, while 4 lacks the sheer insanity that X and 3 have (I honestly feel like 4 was "Well, how are we going to top 3? I know! TWO MACHINEGUNS!!!11"). I'd be inclined to go with 3 over X because the levels are individually more varied, but I don't feel that strongly between the two of them.
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Majora's Mask was starred. It was suggested several times in the submission thread, and there were no negative responses upon the suggestion here. The run shows a wide variety of inventive tricks, good planning and execution. It also makes the list more varied as 3D games were somewhat underrepresented.
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Okay, I know this was discussed before, but it's been a while since the movie came out and there has been time for the novelty to wear off (I think this is something that should very much be considered when choosing stars). I think [1812] Wii Mega Man 10 "Mega Man" by diggidoyo in 33:42.37 is one of the best movies I've seen come out of this site in a long time and believe it should be reviewed as a possible star candidate to replace another Megaman run if necessary. This has nothing to do with it being the only Wii run on the site. I would prefer the run it replace would be Megaman and Bass, but I am aware that Megaman 2 is probably the more likely candidate. As much as I love Megaman 2, I think this run is much better and much more entertaining. Part of the reason that the run is more entertaining and flows better than Megaman 2 is the L/R weapon switching which NES Megaman games don't have. This allows for certain strategies that are unfeasable in Megaman 2, such as Rush Coiling up to a Rush Jet and Switching weapons constantly to cause tons of mayhem as the player moves through the level. It beats Megaman and Bass in variety. This is the difference between having a large number of small glitches and TAS only tricks and having a few big game breaking glitches. When the game breaking glitches are there, that's all the player will use (there are quite a few other runs that have this problem). In Megaman and Bass, they use Ice and Lightning to zip. That feels like the entire run. Megaman 10 uses all the weapons about equally, which makes it feel likes he's making more use of what the game has to offer. There's also other things, like the luck manipulation, killing enemies that aren't in his way because he can, and the fact that he used up all of his weapon energy over the course of the final castle, and scrolls through the weapons just to make a point of that. Either way, this is a high level TAS that goes out of it's way to be entertaining and impressive. As for why I would cut Megaman and Bass over Megaman 2, they both use zip glitches for most of the run, but I think Megaman 2 has more charm and surprise in the way the glitches play out.
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While MM10 might be good game to speedrun, it doesn't translate that well into a TAS. I find it very hard to spot the difference between the TAS and regular speedruns. It's not on the same level as MM1+MM2.
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diggidoyo is also working on a Bass run of MM10; it might be worth considering that one instead once it gets finished.
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Derakon wrote:
diggidoyo is also working on a Bass run of MM10; it might be worth considering that one instead once it gets finished.
I disagree. For obvious reasons, I doubt my input is worth much on this subject, so I'll keep it short. First, I welcome the chance for the MM10 run to have its "starworthyness" considered for more than just being the first on the platform. And second, I'm about 70% finished with the Bass run, and I already feel it wont have the same superplay feel that the Mega Man run had. The Bass run will be much faster, which is both a blessing and a curse, because the opportunities to showcase the capabilities of a MM10 TAS simply aren't there due to the pace of the run. We shall see in time. That's it. I'm not even here.
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The new SMB 2 FDS TAS is the best 8-bit Mario TAS published. Star it!
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CoolKirby wrote:
[1893] N64 Super Mario 64 "0 stars" by Kaylee, sonicpacker, Nahoc, MoltovM & SilentSlayers in 05:03.80 This one should be starred!
The objections to the previous version having a star do no apply anymore, so it will get its star back (it will be subject to discussion again when the new 120 star run is finished).
Lex
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Cave Story needs a star. It's among the best TASes on the site.
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Lex wrote:
Cave Story needs a star. It's among the best TASes on the site.
I second this furiously.
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Too early? I agree it looks very much like a star movie, but we should probably wait until the initial hype dies down then look at it again.
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Lex wrote:
Cave Story needs a star. It's among the best TASes on the site.
Even at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I would like to remind that stars do not denote "best TASes" but "if you don't know what to watch, try these first" (iow. a varied representation of what TASvideos has to offer). Regardless, given that this is the first Windows TAS, a very popular free game, the quality of the TAS is very high (in both entertainment and technical aspects), and people will certainly be interested in watching this, I second the star nomination.
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Thanks for that, Warp. I needed to be put in my place. Because I didn't explain my reasoning in utmost detail, I must have some misunderstanding of the system I'm recommending to employ.
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While I enjoyed the run, it takes a good thirty minutes for it to really kick into action which may be too long for the new viewer that isn't familiar with the game. Still, it certainly had memorable moments, so consider this a 'meh' as to its star suitability.
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