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Posted: 4/1/2005 2:21 AM
Post subject: Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
I figure I might as well make a topic about this. If you have been in the IRC room in the last month or so, you'll know that I was doing lots of heavy testing with Aria of Sorrow, the third (and my favorite) Castlevania installment on the GBA. As of right now, I am still working out a very close to perfect glitch run before I start on an any%. In case you haven't seen the glitches that are possible in this game, they are a lot like the Rockman 2 glitches (where lodging yourself into walls and such can toss you around a bit). The only difference is that these glitches tend to warp you around the castle very drastically and very quickly. Anyways, I have a WIP out on VBA alpha6 right now. If you haven't seen it, ask OgreSlayeR or Nrg or... whomever else saw it last. I recently ruined my only clean copy of it (which got to Balore in about 10 minutes). I will start posting the WIP of the newest version (on the newest VBA), but I'm sure no one wants to see 50 seconds of dialog and 20 seconds of me randomising a dagger and... walking into a room. If anyone wants to know exactly what my goal is: I'm just getting Soma from the beggining of the game to Chaos as quickly as possible, which will take about 13 to 16 minutes tops. It all depends on Balore, since I fight him at level 8 (and he gives me a nice 9 extra levels when he dies, even though he is the last thing that I kill). Aside from the initial Creaking Skull, the Great Armor in the Study, and a non-boss version of Catoblepas, there won't be many boss fights or a whole lot of variation in the souls. And no, definitely no Red Minotaur. :( For the record, I am not making a 100% souls run. Too much work randomising everything, and I suck at makig paths. However, I'm willing to give any help I can to whomever wants to do that.
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Posted: 4/2/2005 3:54 AM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
As promised, my 'test' movie can be located right here. It's not even 2 minutes into the game, but it requires lots of frame specific movements to get those darn fangled dashes to work well. Curse you, Nrg, for pointing out how much faster those are! Also, I will need that orb from the first boss. The amount of MP I use in the next few minutes is too high to regenerate by other means, and the save room is a lot slower. I'm currently working on right after getting the orb, as the current movie may get it at a suboptimal height and is exactly 2 pixels too far to the left to be efficient. Comments would rock, thanks.
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Posted: 4/3/2005 1:55 PM
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McBAIN
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
Excellent! I knew about the dashing, found out about it myself too. It just was too hard for a human to perform it, so i knew that if there'd ever be a TA video for it, that'd be the ideal way to travel. I can understand it's a pain to do this through the entire castle. :P Although i really don't like the AoS glitch runs, the run should be interesting up untill after Balore, so i'm looking forward to it.
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Posted: 4/3/2005 8:52 PM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Well, I am still planning my any% no glitch as we speak. After seeing the newest speedrun for it on SDA, I am confident that I could beat the WR on console. Not only does the author of that run look for some bad randomisations, but he also goes to the Study, which isn't necessary. I have found a way to completely skip Undine, btw. I almost found a way to skip Skula, too, but there are about 6 pixels of rock stopping me from skipping Death and the Clock Tower. Oh well. As for the glitch run, I am currently just past the first White Dragon after entering the main Castle. I'm randomising the Skeleton Knight soul, which seems to be giving me too much trouble as is. Thankfully, as soon as I get that soul, there won't be any randomising of anything until right before the Great Armor in the study.
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Posted: 4/3/2005 9:01 PM
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McBAIN
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
Glad to hear you're still thinking about doing the other run :) You say you can skip the undine. i played AoS today again, and i got reminded to a certain trick. namely, when you enter the castle and take the lower path down to the 'river' where you get the flying armor sould. When you get the soul and go 1 screen o the left, you see a pltform above you, not reachable. Apperantly though, when you jump towards the wall, and then jump as soon as you touch it, you can do another jump. i tried again today and couldn't do it, so i gave up. later, when i got the double jump, i finally managed to do it again, but even without the double jump! (i believe) so, i don't know if you even need the double jump to do it, or you can do it without, but you can certainly do it. this way, you never need to visit the inner quarters. i'm curious about how you're gonna skip using the skula though :) and if your way of skipping the undine is not what i mentioned, then what is the trick if i may ask? Persona is planning on doing a no-damage run full-map for this game, so it'll be great to trade these tricks
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Posted: 4/3/2005 9:04 PM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Yes, you are correct. Once you have Malphas (2x jump) and NOT Flying Armor, you can force Soma into the wall for about 1-4 frames if you hold against the wall. This forces your character about 4 pixels up, give or take. Then, you can jump to the left with your second jump and barely land on the upper platform. That's the quick way to go from the Study to the Floating Garden. You'll see that in the glitch run. edit: I forgot to mention a few things. Yes, you can do this glitch on console pretty easily. Just hold against the wall at your apex for a bit, then jump. Also, I was going to skip Skule using Kicker Skeleton's soul, because it allows you to sort of dive under water pretty well. However, you dive just short of the underwater passageway. Dern. Now I get to scale the towers and fight death.
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Posted: 4/3/2005 9:06 PM
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McBAIN
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
Uhm, well, i've previously done the walljump multiple times myself, and i'm pretty sure i could do a THIRD jump, after the wall jump. (thus, normal jump, wall jump, double jump) edit: i got the flying armor as well edit2: well, i tried again, and i couldn't do 3 jumps :) it's pretty easy once you know how to do it. must've been fake memories. anyways, it is possible with even if you have the flying armor btw. well, gl :)
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Posted: 4/3/2005 9:41 PM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Wait, you can do it without the double jump? edit: no, you most definitely need the double jump to perform this trick
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Posted: 4/3/2005 9:45 PM
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McBAIN
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
No, you can't. I loaded a save :) i couldn't do it from a clear game
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Posted: 4/4/2005 2:28 AM
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mikwuyma
Joined: 12/20/2004
Posts: 226
I like what you have so far Zurreco, I was just wondering about one thing. Have you tried backdashing to cancel the lag of a ground slash, then using a low jump slash to kill the skeleton boss? I have no idea if doing so is slower or faster, I was just wondering. Also, you sound like you are going to do a speedrun of this game on an actual console, is this true? P.S. Work on Mega Man Zero :P
Posted: 4/4/2005 3:15 AM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
a) Nothing cancels out a standing slash except getting hit by something b) My fight with the skeleton boss was optimised. I threw out as many spears as I could while closing the distance as quickly as possible, since the Baselard does a lot of damage compared to the spears. However, a spear appears one frame after Up+B are pressed, while a slash takes... more. That's why I kill it with a spear, to finish it off. c) I could totally do a speedrun and break 45 minutes, but I have no GC of my own (my RA has one, but I won't borrow it for this), we have no GBA to GC connectors, and I have no VCRs. Oh well... PS. Mike, my queue right now is Aria glitch run, Demon's Crest any% (but I will quit if I hit some serious desynchs), Megaman Zero 1 test, Aria any% no glitch, Megaman Zero 1. I'll be sure to keep you and McBAIN up to date with anything I do involving Megaman Zero, since I'll be relying on your expertise in both games.
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Posted: 4/4/2005 6:31 PM
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McBAIN
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
You can cancel out a ground slash by backdashing. And you can cancel out the backdashing by jumping :P thus, you could slash, backdash, jump forward. unless you have a 'sticky' weapon that'll really won't let you go anywhere untill the animation stops (there are few weapons like that, iirc) although i have no idea why mike asked yah, since a jumping slash is faster and requires less frames/actions.
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Posted: 4/4/2005 10:26 PM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
So now I need some feedback. As my route stands, I will glitching to Chaos at around the 13/14 minute mark. Since I am making an 'incomplete' move as is, I was wondering if anyone cared whether or not I ended the Chaos fight early by dieing. You still get an ending (and a cool one, too), but it seems like a cheap way to dodge some work. I will kill Chaos in my any%, though, so its not like youll never see it happen. Also keep in mind that I will be fighting Chaos as a level 18 with a Whip Knuckle, no armor/accesory, Winged Seleton, Balore, and probably Minotaur. So yeah, it will take A WHILE if I do fight it.
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Posted: 4/5/2005 6:29 PM
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McBAIN
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
Hmm, if you ask me, dying against Chaos just gives you a very cool gameover screen, and, imo is not even an actual ending. If you ask me, you should defeat Chaos, even if it'll make for a long battle.
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Posted: 4/5/2005 6:57 PM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
After some calculations, I have determined the following. Each of Chaos' first segments have roughly 3000 HP. I won't exactly have any useful red or blue souls at this point, so I will be focusing my physical attacks on the blue crest first. Whenever it morphs, I will turn to the red crest until the blue one dies. I expect to do about... 50 damage per strike against these things, give or take*. After that, Chaos itself has roughly 3000 HP as well. I will focus on using only physical attacks on the core alone and avoid the eyes at all costs. I will probably toss out a spear or two from time to time in order to fend off the energy balls that follow me. I think I will be doing only 8-12 damage at this point**, so the fight will be LONG. *Level 99 with a full Headhunter, Claimh Solais, Dracula Tunic, and Chaos Ring does 247 damage per swing. This is with 342 att, 243 str, and applied holy damage. **Level 99 with full Headhunter, Claimh Solais, Dracula Tunic, and Chaos Ring does 37 damage per swing. This is with 342 att, 243 str, and applied holy damage. Also, if you are wondering, I will be fighting Chaos at level 17. Soma will have the Whip Knuckle, Casual Clothes, no accessory, Winged Skeleton, Giant Bat, and Minotaur. His relevant stats will be 90 att, and 41 str. He is essentially no match for Chaos without rerecords.
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Posted: 4/5/2005 7:08 PM
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McBAIN
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
Hmm, that will become a long fight i guess. Still, Dying just doesn't feel right :S
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
Posted: 4/5/2005 7:09 PM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Well, as of yet I have had two people say no death (McBAIN and Neon) and three people say yes death (Nrg, Bladegash, and OgreSlayeR). I demand more feedback! edit: Decided to toss in a tiny update. If you've been following the WIP, you aren't gonna see much new material. Just showing you where I'm stuck right now. I've spent about 1200 rerecords trying to randomise a soul from either of the Skeleton Knights in the last room shown, but to no avail. I'll stick with it, though.
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Posted: 4/5/2005 9:33 PM
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OmnipotentEntity
He/Him
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2631
No death if it gives you a different ending. No death if it gives you the same ending. Beating a game via suicide seems wrong to me.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Posted: 4/5/2005 10:22 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Yeah, I have my doubts that a game over screen can count as an ending. I mean, there can be movies or whatever after dying, but that doesn't mean you WON.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 4/5/2005 10:23 PM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
OK. So now it is 4 yes and 4 no. First to 5 decides it.
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
Posted: 4/5/2005 10:40 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Why don't you use your own judgement?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 4/5/2005 10:48 PM
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videogamefreak
Former player
Joined: 7/16/2004
Posts: 6
Seems anti-climatic to see someone get to the boss in 13 minutes then just kill themself. I don't think it makes a very good ending .Besides, if someone wants to see the ending you get when you die they can stop the movie right at the boss.
Posted: 4/5/2005 10:51 PM
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BillBull
Former player
Joined: 5/22/2004
Posts: 462
No death. Dying just seems like the lazy way out. Look at the Dragon Warrior movie - It has a long battle at the end of it, but the parts before it and the skill with which it was handled still made in interesting.
Posted: 4/5/2005 11:12 PM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
OK, looks like I'm gonna kill Chaos then...
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Posted: 4/6/2005 6:34 PM
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McBAIN
Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands
About the 1200 states for the skeleton knight thingy... I've used savestates before, in the hope of getting easy items and souls. However, that never worked for me. Instead, playing the game normally and entering the room and killing the fiend over and over again got me to get the soul/item with less tries than i used save states. Thus, i'm thinking that acquiring the item/soul isn't randomly calculated at the death of an enemy, rather when entering the room. What you could do to test this little theory, is to save state before killing an enemy. Just keep on exiting/entering the room, until you get a soul/item from the enemy. Then, load your state and kill the enemy again. If you get the soul/item over and over again, well, you know what to do. If that doesn't work.. Well then you and every TA runner are officially screwed, coz that means there is like..... no randomization in AoS.... rather some wierd calculation of 'luck' of something
http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.
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