Is dizzy time random as well? There has to be an address for the 'amount' left on dizzy, the only problem is you can't predict how many buttons will be pressed by the opponent right before he comes out of dizzy. Though if it's AI vs AI and your AI can figure out that your opponents AI is always pressing maximum buttons to get out of dizzy asap you could exploit that perhaps by knowing exactly when he will come out of dizzy and infinite redizzy with any character easily.
Something you could also do is input the directional sequence for special a move or multiple special moves right before he's 'exected' to come out of dizzy based on memory address, and also have a normal attack scheduled to hit him at the end of this expected time window; then as long as you can know 1 frame in advance before he'll come out of dizzy you could do a 0 frame to hit special move on the frame before this, or if the normal attack is going to hit on this frame, let it, and then combo. And there's a number of special moves that can dizzy on there own or be comboed out of to dizzy.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
dizzy times are semi random, there are a few different values for how long dizzy lasts that are picked at random.
the only 0 frame moves are jumping attacks, so the opponent can just stop mashing if he sees you jump.
Besides an enemy AI can just mash randomly so you can't predict when the stun will end.
Keep in mind also that this will be ruined by any turbo frame skip.
It just seems like there are too many variables to hit that 1 frame you need each time.
oh yeah, for the air hk to dp link, you should totally be pianoing those inputs, basically do the dp motion and then press lp, mp ,hp one after the other quickly, it will make you three times as likely to get it on the first frame
Well even if dizzy time is random you should know exactly what amount it is right away from a memory address so that's a non-issue. Then I don't think anyone wants to play hf with turbo frame skips (just play on a 0 turbo), so that's a non-issue as well.
The only problem is how much your opponent is spamming, but you know that from memory addresses with just a 1 frame delay, I'm not sure how much control you have with changing spamming rate when you're 3 frames or less away from coming out of dizzy regardless. It might be more predictable than you think.
Also, I noticed geif didn't get a wiff on his SPD until S and ST, so he could option select with SPD and lariat which should give the same uncounterable touch of death from knock-down that T-hawk has in ST. You just have to be able to get close enough to them after the KD to hit with a lariat, which might be even easier with geif than T-hawk, I think he has a much faster sweep kick (fastest in the game right?). Perfect played geif in CE and HF could be pretty amazing.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
lariat can be beaten tho, and you can't do it anyway lariat will always come out instead of spd, you're better off option selecting spd / block, you will spd everything but dragon punch like moves and you can block and punish those
Oh, lariat can be beaten by dp or something, I thought it was a full invincible?
So then with SPD and block they'd have to do a air/invincible attack, in which case you block, then are you sure everything is punishable? Such as guile's forward+mk, Ken's jumping small hurricane or jdp (I think it'd hit twice and bounce you far enough away that you'd be outside of geif's punish range). I suppose geif could do SPD 2 frames after you do jump do a command forward which should hit and KD before geif get's hit.
So I guess the only question then is can geif punish attacks like jdp, honda's headbutt, or blanka's ball. And what's the deal dhalsim's TP, come to think of it, how can T.Hawk beat that in ST?
And geif vs geif would be interesting, what if one O.S SPD and block and other SPD and lariat? What happens if he's lariating and you try SPD?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Lariat is always vulnerable to low hits, dp hits low enough to beat it.
Gief can punish lp dp with a sweep or spd if he blocks point blank. There are ranges where it can't be punished.
hurricane kick can be ducked
guile's forward+mk is way unsafe, even on hit, you can jab, sweep, or spd punish on hit or block.
headbutt you can just do a p lariat when you see it start up
telleport is really slow you can just walk up and hit it, provided you know what direction to go
hp blanka ball beats both types of lariat and spd, and can't be punished you could still do this mix up, beacuse the worst that happens is you block the ball if the opponent does everything perfectly, otherwise you get an spd
a well timed spd cleanly beats jump, in this game you are considered grounded for a few frames after pressing up so they will get thrown.
And geif vs geif would be interesting, what if one O.S SPD and block and other SPD and lariat? What happens if he's lariating and you try SPD?
spd beats lariat
you can't do spd and lariat, you can do an spd option select block and then lariat on the next frame tho.
when any two throws happen on the same frame the winner is random, that means any character can beat spd half the time by going for a throw if they are in range, a problem vs ken.
also keep in mind that after a spd gief is too far away to do anything
Why is ken or ken's throw in particular a problem? And don't all of blanka's ball attack hit on first frame? I can't see how SPD/block would ever beat that. If geif blocks HP ball, can he get a confirmed splash hit or block? Cause I think after this he might be in SPD range but out of blanka's throw range and blanka may or may not have time to charge another HP ball..
Besides geif, can anyone do anything but get SPDed if they block a geif attack, end up outside their throw range but inside SPD range, and geif has time to do SPD after his attack animation?
Geif can get in range if he SPDs close enough to the wall though.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Why is ken or ken's throw in particular a problem? And don't all of blanka's ball attack hit on first frame?
ken is a problem beacuse you need to be really close to punish a jab dp
you can still block no matter what but you can't punish unless blanka is in the corner.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
If geif blocks HP ball, can he get a confirmed splash hit or block?
no, blanka has enough time to anti air with nj, hp
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Besides geif, can anyone do anything but get SPDed if they block a geif attack, end up outside their throw range but inside SPD range, and geif has time to do SPD after his attack animation?
you can't throw someone in block stun, you have to wait until they fully recover, and then it's the same as if they're getting up, if can be lp dped or blanka balled. Gief has tons of time to do an spd after a c.lp
edit
It looks like if you are not that close to blanka you can do a ppp lariat and trade with blanka ball, zangief will do more damage and have time to set up another mix up
Interesting, So ball can be countering with a reactionary pp (it's just 2 in snes at least), but can you SPD from that range too? If so then blanka would have nothing, his best bet would be to get SPD if he's not too close to a wall be able to get away, but closer to a wall, if he is close enough to a wall it's check mate.
With Ken there's probably too ranges that work, right next to him, or just far enough way he doesn't 2 hit ldp.
I know geif has time to SPD after a blocked lp, but what about hp or hk?
And when you piano a special attack don't you sometimes get a h when you want a l or vice versa no matter which way you piano?
Guess it shouldn't matter much for trying to redizzy other than ldp won't redizzy guile very often if ever.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I know geif has time to SPD after a blocked lp, but what about hp or hk?
you can tell that from the frame data, ground attacks cause the same block stun as hit stun.
the only hard attack that recovers quick enough is far hk, but I don't know if you would be in range afterwords.
all medium attacks but c.mp
far lp, far lk, c.lp, and c.lk should also work
this doesn't take into account meatys tho, the only interesting move that would only work meaty is c.hk
yeah piano it's basically random what you get, I figured the first hit of the dps all caused the same stun, does guile have a high stun? I thought they where all the same.
No, some characters have higher constitution it's called, I think guile's is the highest, you need a 2-hit DP to stun him.
meating c.hk would be very nice, because it would push them back further before you SPD, or KD if they don't block, in which case they get pushed back and you get to start from any range basically next time. But wouldn't work on anyone with a DP type move unless it wiffs right?
I'm still a bit puzzled by o.selecting dp and throw. The throw has to be inputted after your animation recovers for it to work, at least in SNES hf it does. So I see so no benefit to starting with a meatty attack frist. The tech here basically just seems to be kara-cancling a throw wiff with a dp.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
the reason damdi starts with a meaty c.lk in the video is for timing purposes, it's a lot easier to time the c.lk for wakeup then it is the throw, beacuse if he is even 1 frame early with the throw he will get a dp instead, making the opponent block the c.lk probably isn't something a bot would need
edit, actually, I take that back, you where right when you said the opponent gets to throw you first when he wakes up. There is a random amount of frames that the opponent is immune to throws after getting knocked down or reset, so that's what the c.lk is for, vs an ai that can always be beat by a wakeup throw, a safe jump would be good if possible, but obviously wouldn't be possible vs everyone and is harder to setup
Wouldn't the geif AI always stand outside normal throw range but inside SPD range, or do a meating c.hk that pushes them back to this range. The only problem would be vs geif; couldn't start with SPD at all, maybe a meating low splash or lighter attack with less knockback would be best, can that be countered with lariat or turbo lariat? If not then I think you're set up in an adventitious guessing game, you can either go for SPD or pummel right after block stun in which you win 50% of the time or a few combo attacks which end in KD, I think geif has quite a few links he can do which end in either c.hk or lariat/tl
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
well throw always beats attack, there may be a magic range where gief can c.lk to spd and be out of throw range the whole time.
but there is up to 29 frames of throw invincibility so meaty c.lk to spd won't always work.
I wonder how good a claw ai might be, his wall dive is basically an unthrowable throw, and he has some of the best normals and movement in the game.
It wouldn't be super hard to program ether
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx06EJSlsOI
But isn't his throw countered by a lot of attacks? I know you can option select dp and hc but an ai could just know which side it will be on, and if you have have up 29 non-throwable frames you can uppercut or do another normal in that time.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
But isn't his throw countered by a lot of attacks? I know you can option select dp and hc but an ai could just know which side it will be on, and if you have have up 29 non-throwable frames you can uppercut or do another normal in that time.
if vega get's on top of you when you are imputing, he can switch sides to screw up your inputs or get you to uppercut in the wrong direction. Point being, you would need to add a lot to your AI to come up with every possible situation to beat the wall dive, witch is a big advantage for vega, beacuse if the opponents ai can't beat it he wins.
I think the AI would just have to input both sides at the same time, even if it crossed up during those 3 frames the game would still extract the correct input no matter what.
The AI could also know which side vega is on and when he'll cross you up and input the direction something like 10 frames in advance before the cross-up occurs and then press the attack button during the 3 or so frame window (how many frames is it exactly?)
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
you can't option select it by doing both sides if he is constantly moving back in forth in the air, and you won't have 10 frames in advance to know what side he is going to land on, if it's done well, you would be lucky to have 1, he can literally land on your head, where one pixel to ether side would cause a cross up
What versions can he change direction every frame? Also, are you sure if you input: L R, D, DL DR lp that the game won't extract either L, D, DL or R D, DR no matter what the c-u scenario is like?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
any of his wall dives can change is possession every frame, but it's pixels at a time.
if you get crossed up just right the game can see
L, R, D, DL DR
as
foward, foward, down, down back, down back and that doesn't do anything
I'm not saying you can't get an input that counts a dp in both directions, just that if you are crossed up contently, it's imposable to predict what the input will be
I'm saying you could input 'L R, D, DL DR' not 'L, R, D, DL, DR
So that's L and R on same frame, not 2 adjacent frames.
And if you don't want to allow AIs to do L+R or U+D, you could input:
L,R,L,R,D,DL,DR,DL,DR,L,R,L,R,lk lp and it'd be pretty hard not to get a hc or dp off.
Also are you sure multiple c-us can occur on consecutive frames.
And are you sure the game perceives input as either forward or backward and not either L or R?
I don't think any of this is multiple c-u stuff is possible unless your opponent is against the wall.
And because of throw invulnerability time don't you have enough time to get a normal or D+normal off?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
L+R or U+D doesn't do anything useful in this version of sf2 so that doesn't work
yeah it can cross up your inputs multiple times, but your charactor doesn't turn around immediately, so a lot of times your will dp in the wrong direction.
And are you sure the game perceives input as either forward or backward and not either L or R?
yeah you can't do d,dl,l,p to do a fireball on the left side of the screen
Which version of SF2?
You can c-u multiple times but can you multiple times on consecutive frames, because that would be necessary.
Still seems like normals would work if you can get up 29 frames of throw invulnerability.
It shouldn't matter which way you dp if claw is close enough to throw you.
Still doesn't seem like multiple c-u is possible unless your opponent is getting up next to a wall.
Quote:
And are you sure the game perceives input as either forward or backward and not either L or R?
yeah you can't do d,dl,l,p to do a fireball on the left side of the screen
But can you do d,dl,l,p and have your opponent c-u on the frame of the p and still do a fb left?
There's just a lot that hasn't been confirmed yet, seems like there's more ways to get out of it and it's use is more limited. Before getting a kd though claw would have an advantage.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
