Ah now I get it, so with the c.lk to lk+HP, is that a chain or a 1 frame link?
what about c.mp to hp link? that'd be a really sick link cause then you could finished a fb or dp and do some chip dmg worse case and be safe against most characters and well distanced, and if he ate the c.mp you'd prolly dizzy him.
I was thinking if there was a source that showed the hit boxes on every frame of every move that'd be pretty awesome. And something that explained every possible chain and link with required inputs in frame counts.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Ah now I get it, so with the c.lk to lk+HP, is that a chain or a 1 frame link?
what about c.mp to hp link? that'd be a really sick link cause then you could finished a fb or dp and do some chip dmg worse case and be safe against most characters and well distanced, and if he ate the c.mp you'd prolly dizzy him.
cps-1 chains are chains not links, chain means it cancels the recovery of the move and immediately start the next move
chains you can input the next move during the hit freeze, about 10 frames
ken can do c.mp, s.hp but you will be out of range of any special moves
Spider-Waffle wrote:
I was thinking if there was a source that showed the hit boxes on every frame of every move that'd be pretty awesome. And something that explained every possible chain and link with required inputs in frame counts.
dammit has written an awesome hitbox script
http://code.google.com/p/mame-rr/wiki/Hitboxes
he also did a useful dizzy meter script here
http://mame-rr.googlecode.com/svn/lua/
as for frame advantage dammit also wrote a script that does that but it only works with Darkstalkers games, the SFA games, Super Turbo and 3rd Strike
you are probably better off looking here http://nki.combovideos.com/flame.html
in sf2 all moves of the same type cause the same hit stun so you can look at those numbers and tell if something will combo
ken can do c.mp, s.hp but you will be out of range of any special moves
That's not true, I've totally been nailing Zangief with c.mp, s.hp, f.dp which dizzies him; I think l.dp works too.
in sf2 all moves of the same type cause the same hit stun
by same type you mean like all c.kicks, or c.lights? And what are the hit stun times, that would have been nice to include in that table.
Want to help at all with RTS ideas? I've worked out pretty strats for geif, ryu, and sort of guile; honda is harder to predict and even when can he's hard to beat fast, best I've found is lots of straight j.hk until he's dead, this strat never knocks him down and can get 70-75
It's usually about finding consistent ways to get dizzies or hit them after knock downs
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
RTS?
Light Attacks cause 11 frames of hitstun, Medium cause 16 frames and Hard cause 20 frames
all jumping attacks cause 11 hitstun vs standing opponents, but more vs crouchers
most specials and command normals cause 20
RTS = real time speedrun, I'll start a stread on SDA and link here soon
Do you know how much hit stun is from an air attack on a croucher?
are fb and hc both 20?
and WTF is a command normal?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
So I was watching a ST Saturday about new ken. DD mentions that c.lk can be canceled with c.lk but the second c.lk can't, which would explain when I spam them they always hit in pairs. Then he says you can do a cancel after that by kara-canceling a s.lk with w/e you want to do I guess; which is dubbed "renda-canceling" Does this have to be s.lk? or does s.hp or some other cancelable attack work?
After watching and seeing it explained I get what you were saying doing c.lk chain to hp, but you said this doesn't work on the snes ports?
so this ken combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JaB_2blg_o#t=7m25s Is basically c.lk, lk,up, hp, hc; where lk,up is kara-canceling a s.lk with a straight up jump? Can this be a forward or backward jump?
So what's the best combos you know ken can do against a dizzied opponent in the middle or against a wall? I'm sure some depend on the opponents height too, I've also noticed it seem there's some stuff like dhalsim's hit box gets higher after you hit him, because it seems easier to land a downward j.hk to hc on him than against blanka or guile.
*EDIT*
Finally found something nice against E.honda. When he's rising time a up,hk,hc, he almost always will try a hp since you're in the air and that's he's air standard air defense he always does unless you're really close to landing, rarely he blocks, but I might be able to attribute this to the hk being meaty or almost meaty. If you do the hc VERY soon after the hk the hc will hit 3 times and dizzy him, but you need to be super fast, else it will hit once or twice then wiff, then he can block or special you but he'll almost never special you. Then combos of choice seem to be either cross-up hk, hc, dp; or cross-up hk, hp, dp or fb (you can almost always dp after fb when in range against all AIs)
Is there anyway to counter blanka's bite, like a reversal throw? cause he will always punish a hc with a bite when possible.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
So I was watching a ST Saturday about new ken. DD mentions that c.lk can be canceled with c.lk but the second c.lk can't, which would explain when I spam them they always hit in pairs. Then he says you can do a cancel after that by kara-canceling a s.lk with w/e you want to do I guess; which is dubbed "renda-canceling" Does this have to be s.lk? or does s.hp or some other cancelable attack work?
yeah in sf2 you can't cancel a light attack that has been chained. So you can't normally do, c.lk,c.lk, dp, you can cancel if you change between standing and crouching do S.lk, c.lk, dp tho. Another thing renda canceling can do, is let you cancel a light attack that's chainable but not normally cancelable like kens s.lk
Mostly just used for supers because supers are normally much harder to cancel then specials, more commands and a smaller window.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
After watching and seeing it explained I get what you were saying doing c.lk chain to hp, but you said this doesn't work on the snes ports?
it doesn't work in st ether. Just cps1 games
Spider-Waffle wrote:
so this ken combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JaB_2blg_o#t=7m25s Is basically c.lk, lk,up, hp, hc; where lk,up is kara-canceling a s.lk with a straight up jump? Can this be a forward or backward jump?
c.lk, jump cancel ( he jumps away ), j.lp, hk this is an snes only combo, probably only works vs zangief.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
So what's the best combos you know ken can do against a dizzied opponent in the middle or against a wall? I'm sure some depend on the opponents height too, I've also noticed it seem there's some stuff like dhalsim's hit box gets higher after you hit him, because it seems easier to land a downward j.hk to hc on him than against blanka or guile.
Best combos I know can't be done practicality. And I don't know the snes version, in the arcade crossup j.hk, c.lk, c.lk, cps1 chain s.hp, dp normally redizzies, j.hk, s.hp, dp may be your best bet, or crossup j.hk, c.mp, s.hp, dp if you can do it
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Is there anyway to counter blanka's bite, like a reversal throw? cause he will always punish a hc with a bite when possible.
hc kick is unsafe on hit, you shouldn't normally use it. If both players try to throw at the same time it's random who get's thrown. If you suspect a throw the best thing to do is jump or dp. If you get grabbed by a mash throw like blanka's bite, you should just mash all your buttons as quickly as you can and it will help you get out of it quicker.
hc or j.hc, is sometimes safe on hit in snes though, like in that combo against gief. Cause against blanka ai I'll do nj.hk, hhc; but usually it will hit twice then wiff then blanka blocks, it seems ken has vulnerable frames in ground state before he can dp or anything, because everytime I try to dp he still always gets the bite. This is the same for after honda's bear hug, he will always do fhhs and everytime I try to dp he always hits me seemingly before I land, that combo does like 90% dmg on 8* lol :-(
Ya, I was thinking cu.j.hk, c.mp, s.hp, hdp, but the second hit of the hdp would never hit unless maybe geif, sagat, or boxer, I think the second hit of hdp does more than c.mp by a couple HP.
What about good combos to start dizzies?
I think fb finishes are pretty good since they can hit from the furthest ranges, so stuff like j.hk (from extra range), c.lk or c.mk, fb; seems like one of the best.
You should make a ToD combo video at 1* to 8* for every character, against chun li w/e possible.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Ya I figured this out this morning as well, was messing around with it for a long time, was pretty excited.
It works with lp,hc; mp,hc; and hp,hc but mp and hp only have a 1 frame window for the punch, after landing the punch it's easy to get the hc with the stun frames. So I can get lp,hc at least 60% against any character in RT right now. This is really the ultimate SFII move. The hc hits 7 times always, just brutal, with with lp ken does a double cu at the end which would confuse any one, and if you got really good you could mix in hp,hc cause that will end on the other side, I guess not that you'd really ever need to since just spamming c.lk at the end will always 2 unblockable c.lk for the redizzy...
You can also end with s.hp, c.hp, or dp for redizzy, little faster for speedrunning but only 1 or 2 frame window compared to 3 or 4 for c.lk c.lp s.lp.
RTS just a lot more interesting, now that I have a pretty reliable fast way to dizzy from knock-down and redizzy. It's pretty interesting on 8* in this version because the computer gets a lot more health so you really have unleash some nasty shit to kill them fast. I suppose with 2 hps, and 7 hcs as one combo you could probably finish some with only 1 knock-down after a big dizzy combo, like 3-hit dp.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
the easiest thing to link after a backwards hurricane kick is a dragon punch. It has the quickest startup of any on kens moves, + Max damage so it's good in a speed run.
How easy is it for you to do jump back lp, hk hurricane, hp dp?
How is an rts different then the sf2:hf run in verification right now?
I was getting j.lp, hc a little over half I think, but when I wasn't in vs mode practicing I was thinking about it too much and only get like 20% plus when you're doing something else then have to execute it all of sudden it's a lot harder than when you've been doing only that for the last 10 minutes straight.
I suppose there should be a larger window for dp than c.lk since it has 2 less startup frames, plus even if they block during the 1 start-up frame they'll still get chipped twice. The real hard part is getting the lp, you have to wait 3 frames after jumping then you have a 3 frame window to hit lp, but I think with straight to hc you have 3 frame wait then 6 frames since it's an instant attack, so maybe I'll just use hc, it'd be impossible for me to execute it too early as well which happens a lot with lp.
For an AI though you should use HP, hc, HDP, which I believe will redizzy everyone guaranteed no matter what and do damage the fastest. But doing this on CE would probably be better, are you sure j.hc doesn't work like this in CE?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
there are no air hurricane kicks in ce.
In the arcade version of hyper fighting you can do backwords air hks but it always pushes the opponent away, never pulls them to you.
Redizzy is depended almost entirely on the length of the combo so there is no redizzy advantage to starting with lp over hp. The advantage to lp, is the hk will come out closer to the ground and that means the link after will be easier.
The AI should just do c.lk, jump cancel, instant air hurricane kick, c.lk, jump cancel, instant air hurricane kick, c.lk, jump cancel, instant air hurricane kick, etc
will probably always redizzy during the second hk
Doesn't j.hp have more hit stun frames than j.lp, so that'd be a small advantage if so. Also, aren't you guaranteed to be able to do a hit with c.lk or hdp after the hc if you hit with the j.hp asap? Also, I've never had j.p, j.hc, hdp not redizzy, even against guile.
What about if you c-u jump to j.hc on the way down? because you start the jump jumping toward them instead of away from them, it might be different.
Oh CE didn't have the extra special moves? well it's still pretty good, so do you think ahf is better than s or st?
Seems like characters like blanka and E.honda wouldn't be so good on CE without the extra specials, and characters like the 4 bosses and dhalsim would be pretty good.
*EDIT* I think I'm going to make a thread in shoryuken.com for the run. I just did a mess-around practice where all fights were 67 or faster expect 5 rounds. For ken it seems the most important thing is figuring out a consistent way to damage them right after they stand-up, it's pretty different for most characters, but I've worked out ways that work pretty good on all. Highlights of the run included a 86 on guile, 86 on gief (I think I can do 88), and 87 on boxer.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I made a lua script that displays charge times, and monitors special inputs for SSFT2. Maybe you could adapt it to WW, I've never tested if it works for world warrior.
It displays the stun timer and stun count as well.
Stun works like this, once you get hit the timer is incremented and stun is added, if the dummy isn't hit again by time the timer decrements, the stun meter decrements.
Special inputs work something like this. Most non-charge characters start with 0, if an input for say a fireball is put:
Once down is pressed, the address changes to 2
you have a specific amount of frames to continue the motion (usually 7-10, it can be random) to input the next movement, down-forward, then the value will increment to 4, again a time window is there for the next input, press forward then it increments to 6, then you have a time again and it will increment to 8 during it, then when you press forward + punch, the fireball is executed and the address returns to 0.
Almost all addresses work this way except for the command grab holds that Zangief and Thawk have, they work differently, both their supers and thier 360 grabs. I haven't figured out exactly how they work, I know the first value must be 8 for the 360 to be good and the 2nd value must be greater than 0 to execute the command grab.
Keep in mind, that in super turbo, the CPU AI uses different specials from what the player gets, that's why their moves do more damage, they can instantly do charge moves (guile AI can walk up and flashkick or sonic boom), and their throws last much longer. So their special addresses are not implemented because I never bother to find them since the script is for people wanting to learn more about SSFT2.
If someone can figure out how damage is randomized, as in, what causes it to be lower or higher at times, that would be awesome. I did a little bit of debugging myself, but I'm not very good at 68000: http://shoryuken.com/f223/super-turbo-hud-272431/index2.html#post10604433http://code.google.com/p/ssf2thud/
Hope this helps.
Doesn't j.hp have more hit stun frames than j.lp, so that'd be a small advantage if so. Also, aren't you guaranteed to be able to do a hit with or c.lk hdp after the hc if you hit with the j.hp asap? Also, I've never had j.p, j.hc, hdp not redizzy, even against guile.
no, all jumping attacks cause 11 hit stun unless the opponent is crouching, in which case I don't think it will hit. I think after a j.hp, hk If the game skips the wrong frame then you can miss the link, not sure tho.
I like ce because it's the version I'm most familiar with, I also think hsf2:ae is good because it gives the most options
So I might have had gief get redizzied by a basic j.hp, hp, hdp, where the first dp hit was a kd. Either that or he came undizzy the frame before I hit him with the j.hp thus not giving him the 60 frames of frozen dizzy meter, only happened once though. Are you sure redizzy works that way in snes hf?
Is there anything different or worse about snes hf than arcade other than ken's vacuum hc? I think you were saying it will randomly drop a frame every now and then where the arcade version doesn't?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Dammit has dizzy meter lua script here that works with all the sf2 games
http://mame-rr.googlecode.com/svn/lua/
that sonic boom timer looks cool
a human can do a throw the same length as the computer, it's mostly random how much damage a mash throw can do but there is some mashing involved, I can do a 100% tool assisted throw with any mash throw in ce.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
So I might have had gief get redizzied by a basic j.hp, hp, hdp, where the first dp hit was a kd. Either that or he came undizzy the frame before I hit him with the j.hp thus not giving him the 60 frames of frozen dizzy meter, only happened once though. Are you sure redizzy works that way in snes hf?
I'm pretty sure it works the same as in the arcade, and no way can that redizzy in the arcade version.
Is there anything different or worse about snes hf than arcade other than ken's vacuum hc? I think you were saying it will randomly drop a frame every now and then where the arcade version doesn't?
the arcade hf drops frames. The amount of frames street fighter games drop depends on the speed settings. Hf doesn't have any speed settings and doesn't have a regular interval at witch it drops frames.
The normal mode for the snes version probably doesn't drop any frames but the tubo speeds probably does, it might even be at predictable intervals.
for example hsf2 drops frames like this
TURBO 0 n/a
TURBO 1 5,5,6,5,5,6,...
TURBO 2 3,3,3,3,4,3,3,3,3,4,...
TURBO 3 2,2,2,3,2,2,3,...
To be clear I'm talking about frames the game displays, the game processes the same amount of frames but doesn't display all of them to speed the game play up.
As long as you are not doing 1 frame links it shouldn't be a problem, but if you are making an AI script you need to account for it.
hmm, I'll have to mess around with that dizzy meter script and see if it has that 60 frame thing on snes because I've had it happen again. I'm trying to find some better combo to do against a dizzied opponent against the wall with 50% health left or so. I feel like there should be something that can finish them. Against tall opponents, j.hp, hp, hdp works fine, but will never 2 hit dp against anyone else; vacuum hc can work but it's still not the most consistent and the link after the hc is 3 frames at best depending on when you did the j.lp. The best I can think of think of for now is j.hp, hp, fb,, *hdp; the AI will always try and attack or move forward after the fb but some will throw you if you're in range, like dhalsim and gief, it seems the opponent recovers from getting hit by fb 1 or 2 frames before you recover from throwing fb. I ordered a 2 snes ports to usb converter yesterday so I can play on an emu.
I think it plays best at 0 turbo, that's typically what I play at. I have some vague memory that there was a small code to press to get 5 star turbo, is this real?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
there is a code that lets you get up to 10 star turbo.
Apparently the randomness in the arcade sf2hf is due to how much animation is in the background
quick memory search shows
7E078E is the address for p2 snes hf dizzy value
7E078F is the dizzy countdown
you can see that after a dizzy doing j.hp, hp, hdp it adds between 0-5 stun, the number you need for a dizzy seems to be around 30
It seems to work like the ssf2 arcade stun in that there is a grace period regardless of if you combo them.
I redizzied ryu with just hp, hdp; I suppose it's possible he had just come out of dizzy. That might be a key to beating the AI if they consistently try to attack right after coming out of dizzy, but I think they block half the time or so. It really seemed like I did it before he could have come out of dizzy though. The meter might just have rare chances of getting an extremely high value. Sometimes hp, 2hit hdp won't dizzy (not redizzy) guile, but only like 1/10 chance.
I think I can get j.lp, vacuum hc off a dizzied opponent fairly consistent, probably just as high as a c-u j.hk, hp, hdp. The problem is that all of the links after the hc are 3 frame at best it seems. I've done what I thought was perfectly timed hdp afterwards many times only to have the AI throw or block me.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
trust me it's not a redizzy, there is no way that can redizzy.
I did some testing and it seems the opponent can't block the first frame after coming out of dizzy. It's funny because he goes into a block animation for one frame and still gets hit.
Timing is too tight to be useful and I'm not sure if reversals are possible, but it would be interesting for a tas
So you've confirmed the 60 frame 0 dizzy meter is in effect on snes too? Is that 60 frames from start of dizzy or from first hit while in dizzy?
If that 1 frame window can't be reversed user-made AI could be programed to infinitely redizzy abusing that, it would just have to be able to predict when the opponent will come out of dizzy 1-3 frames in advance so it can hit on that exact frame.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
idk if it's 60 frames, the time starts from the first hit after dizzy, it doesn't matter if you combo after that. ie, lp, wait until the opponent recovers, lp doesn't reset it.
I don't think you could have an ai that could redizzy like that, the timing is too precise and dizzy is too random.
here is an article on frame skip with the numbers for sf:hf snes
http://combovid.com/?p=5002
