I don't even know why I'd run AND publish something here, if it wasn't to show how FAST the game CAN be RUN. Entertainment? Seems more like some people want to record and publish any shit they run for fun just 'cause it happens to be entertaining enough this time (for them).
Lemme say it in a more simple way.
Speed = entertainment
For me at least.
It doesn't seem like anyone has brought up the FF4 TAS that repeatedly uses a pause that darkens the screen and lowers the music, very, very distractingly... and was published using code that removed the effect on the music. Or at least, if someone did bring it up, I missed it.
Is something like that perhaps an option? Using a script or modification to somehow reduce the annoyance of pausing?
The first duty of every speedrunner is to the speed - whether realtime speed, or in-game speed, or absolute speed. It is the guiding principle on which TASvideos is based, and if you can't find it within yourself to stand up and be as fast as possible, then you don't deserve to wear that uniform!
Am I the only one who got this awesome reference? Well done, sir! ^_^
Joined: 3/18/2006
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Location: Great Britain
aiming for lowest in-game time or not needs to be decided
the pause glitch allows for superior enemy and critical hit manipulation,
it may increase or decrease the real-time battle length depending on the circumstance
There is a lot of really rude and uncivil posting here regarding the speed vs. entertainment argument.
It's not my place to tell anyone what to think, but please act like grown-ups when you post. Calling someone's personal opinions "crap" is just childish. Ultimately the decision is up to antd, and somehow I don't think you're going to win any points by being unnecessarily rude.
antd: as I've said before, in a run that's hours long, I think you shouldn't worry too much about best in-game time at the cost of viewing pleasure. Obviously that is a subjective viewpoint and it's not something that can be nailed down, but I have reasonable faith in the community here and in you as a human being--I believe people are capable of making coherent, intelligent decisions about what counts as "entertainment" and what sacrifices are worth making. I don't need to view everything here as pure, black-and-white objectives, because quite frankly that makes things less fun.
The pause glitch, to me, is significantly less fun to watch. I'll leave the verdict on that up to you, of course. I'm less opposed to the use of slots, but I'd really rather not see that, because the strategies you'll use will be more impressive if you don't just one-shot everything. That's my two cents... take it as you will.
Here's my assessment. For all intent and purposes this run is and has always been a speedrun not a superplay; however, it seems for excruciating circumstances antd will consider sacrificing speed for entertainment. I don't think this ingenious pause trick qualifies by any means.
Also, to me if you're not going for speed, you are merely doing a superplay which merely has subjective entertainment value, where as a speedrun has objective value which can be in and of its self great on it's on accord. But, ultimately it only matters what antd wants to do.
We've all given our opinions, enough is enough, discuss the run now.
Slots diffidently needs more testing, it seems from your estimates acquiring slots needs to take less than roughly 6 minutes for it to be worth it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't deathblow optional as well, I thought there was a crit hit alternative that could be better, it just needs more luck stat, of which there is at least two easy to get +1 lucks, and maybe with level/exp manipulation it is possible to get more as well. It seemed most of the bosses where right on the cusp of zero probability, thus getting a small boost in luck early could tide you over for the rest of the game.
PLEASE ADDRESS THIS LUCK IDEA, it seems plausible and needs at least some consideration.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't deathblow optional as well, I thought there was a crit hit alternative that could be better, it just needs more luck stat, of which there is at least two easy to get +1 lucks, and maybe level manip. is possible to get more as well. It seemed most of the bosses where right on the cusp of zero probability, thus getting a small boost in luck early could tide you over for the rest of the game.
According to wikia:
Luck Source can only be found once in Junon
Yes, there is a critical hit alternative that is better (1.5x stronger). I believe for Red Dragon, Tifa will need 2 increases of luck and 2 increases in level.
Deathblow might be needed as I don't know if this strategy would work against DGate (very high level).
I thought there might have been a luck source around the second reactor earlier on, or maybe it was a different source. But you'd still need two more increases in level. When you first acquire tifa is there a dice roll on her stats?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Hey antd,
I think getting the Deathblow materia from Gongaga might be a worthy bit of sidetracking after all. If you wanted to skip Cosmo Canyon and leave the DS enemy skill til later this, Slots, and other limit breaks could substitute in the mean time.
And yes, let's focus on the run discussion. Garland's normal speedrun record on PSx was very good (considering the PSx version is slower than PC), and beating his record is a key aspect to TAS'ing this game. There are plenty of games that abuse the same tactic over and over on this site yet got much approval. To judge a multiple hour run's entertainment value by 1-2 tricks that aren't a huge amount of the run itself is trivial. Everyone will go "Yes" vote on this run anyway cos it's FFVII and well polished, so this is a silly thing to derail the thread about. Let's focus on the run like Waffle said.
Back on topic:
The Golden Saucer - seeing as many are whining about entertainment, can time be saved by wasting time here on the minigames? There are the Parasol and Flayer weapons for Aerith and Cid on the rollercoaster game. Wonder Square has a lot of useful accessories, materia etc. by doing the mini games or using your GP (which can be gotten very fast 300 a time from the boxing game). All materia, safety bit, crystal bangle from snowboarding. Also check this list of things for gp exchange if you decide not to go back to GS in disc 2 for the snowboarding, sub game or flayer:
GP Exchange: You can exchange your GP for prizes here. The list is:
1GP: Potion
20 GP: Ether
80 GP: X-Potion
100 GP: Turbo Ether
300 GP: Gold Ticket (an unlimited-access pass to Gold Saucer)
500 GP: Carob Nut
1000 GP: Gil Plus
2000 GP: Exp Plus
For a quick quick go on the boxing you can get your gold ticket there.
One last thing about the gold saucer is the one thing you can get when you have to return there is a champion belt, arguably one of the best accessories in the game. Sure you could die instantly in battle square to save time, but who knows this might come in useful and in turn save time in making new battle strategies.
Anywho just some ideas. I think the golden saucer has been overlooked in the past by farringa, garland, lolo etc. because of 2 things a TAS can tinker with which a speedrun can't - time and luck!
Oh, one last thing.....
It seems the Bone Village dig site (which needs to be visited twice in the game) has the potential to reward you some great items you may have missed including ones you can't go back and get when you do the digging game. Has this been considered at any point for luck manipulation as well?
As far as I remember there are weapons to be found here at the very least, again something that can be luck abused which wasn't abused in the the speedrun attempts.
EDIT: A useful map made by a GFAQer :p http://www.shillatime.org/bonevillage.jpg
Steal Materia can also be gotten here on the PSx version.
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
there is some random aspect of a joining character's stats
gold saucer seems slow
i think it might be faster to get w-item and use the glitch to duplicate power/luck sources :p
it may be worth getting the luck plus materia in the temple of the ancients, although i have no idea how long that may take
amulet is another high source of luck (buy from mideel, luck +10)
Hmmm, does anybody here considered the pause glitch video was made with pcsx-rr and this may be why it sound so bad ?
(and sry if i missed that argument...)
Its very likely in psxjin the sound may be better when using that glitch.
So it seems like there's huge potential for more luck stat for tifa, how much were you short for the various bosses?
If you could get an optimum luck and good power/speed (or w/e else helps) on tifa's intial stats how much could that help, like 2-4 extra luck plus similar power/speed? And there's at least 1 +1 luck earlier on in juno, I thought there might have been one in the coastal town as well.
You can't get w-item until disc 3 right? So there's some glitch with w-item that dups items?, what are its limitations? Maybe taking extra time to get some uber items and then duping them could be time saving because of the dups. Are there any other glitches like this that could be used? And are there any other hard codings like 7777 fever that could be used?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
in terms of base luck, the maximum is around 22
so only extra luck from items and materia can help
maybe 2 for red dragon, 1 for palmer
i was joking about w-item. it would probably take too long to get
limitations? it can duplicate any item/equip up to 99
About Tifa and luck. Maybe you can make up for the luck by getting EXP Plus materia from the Golden Saucer the first time you visit. It would involve playing the 3D Boxing game 7 times, though which would take about 8 1/2 minutes (possibly less in TAS). The spare GP would also afford you 1 x X-Potion but if you already have one to pick up in the route i'd advise against getting it here because it eats up more time in field messages here.
EDIT: Considering how late in the game you get w-item anyway it might be worth skipping it altogether :p I don't know any other purpose it could serve besides a boost in luck/strength during the final section of the game as well as a means of cloning powerful combat items. If you really want it though try getting from Bone Village instead. Might be faster than backtracking the tunnels.
Joined: 3/18/2006
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Location: Great Britain
Gold Saucer is not worth it.
W-item is also probably not worth it.
We can get double EXP from any boss, but it means the boss fight will take almost twice as long.
Have you considered getting quadra magic via the landing glitch?
quadra magic with Ultima is quite a strong but slowish attack, but as both materia's are quite late in the game, and it probably takes at least 1 minute to collect, probably not worth it.
may be useful vs future bosses that have multiple targets: Carry Armor, Proud Clod, Jenova*SYNTHESIS, Bizarro*Sephiroth.
Link to video
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
im not sure how useful ultima will be
i just know that ultima hits for 9999 in 10 seconds
whereas tifa can hit for near double that in 5 seconds (Deathblow + critical Added cut)
btw, i tested a very nice <60 second demonsgate strat
in terms of base luck, the maximum is around 22
so only extra luck from items and materia can help
maybe 2 for red dragon, 1 for palmer
i was joking about w-item. it would probably take too long to get
limitations? it can duplicate any item/equip up to 99
Can you estimate what it is for more of the bosses, I mean if these are the only bosses where going out of your way to get more luck are relevant, then the getting more luck spectrum of strategis aren't so hot. But if it turns out all the rest of the bosses will be about 1-2 luck short, there's a bunch more time consuming boss battles, then that's when getting more luck strategies become gold mines.
So getting 1 or 2 more luck seems very reasonable. I guess there's only 1 +1 luck confirmed in juno that's very quick to get, that would help for palmer at least, and then maybe you can get a 23 base luck, which would help for red dragon as well.
And what points in the run and how long does it take to get the luck plus materia, and the amulet from mideel?
And what possibility is there for manipulating more bonus to luck upon level up? (is this even such a thing?) Or manipulating more EXP for faster leveling up? Or actually doing something different, like accepting a random encounter that's time consuming to avoid, to get Tifa more EXP?
We can get double EXP from any boss, but it means the boss fight will take almost twice as long.
So would this make sense in theory? Get double EXP for Tifa on "1-3 or so" of the earlier bosses to give her 1-10 (how much would it be?) extra luck stat, and thus be over zero probability limit for most the boss fights for the rest of the game?
SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THIS:
what other potentially time saving hard codings and glitches are there such as 7777 fever, Cosmo canyon skip/buggy glitches, landing glitch, and w-item glitch?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Waffle-
There are some time saving bugs with limits.
Occasionally in a save file you will skip a whole level of limit breaks and so get either 1 or both level 3 limits. Sometimes (rarest condition) you start the game with all of theM! But this means you cannot enter Special Battle Arena in Golden Saucer (not that important to us as it's only an extra after Omnislash).
I've been looking around for any conditions in RAM or codes that trigger either of these 2 conditions from the beginning point of the game but no joy yet. It's not really my forte so idk if anyone can find out how this happens?
I don't know if this is considered cheating but...there's another bug during combat. It won't be fun to use during boss battles but here goes - if you take the disc out of the tray on actual hardware during a battle it stops the enemies performing any commands (though I'm sure in some cases this applies to you as well).
Joined: 3/18/2006
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Location: Great Britain
i think tifa would need a level of 30+ to get over 22 base luck
something like that
critical against bosses becomes naturally possible in the speed run anyway
Bisqwit wrote:
Does one of those not hit multiple targets at once whereas the other just a single target?
yep
Occasionally in a save file you will skip a whole level of limit breaks and so get either 1 or both level 3 limits. Sometimes (rarest condition) you start the game with all of theM
the only issue is that this is pretty much unconfirmed
psx, emulator or pc version? gameshark codes on? scratched disc?
i will mess around with some things and see what happens
the open cd lid option is broken in pcsx
hopefully it will work in the new emulator
maybe this glitch can be used somewhere to skip-text/scene, I found it tricky to do in real-time on the PC, need to confirm if it works on PS version via tas.
Link to video
There must be way more undiscovered glitches using the menu/pause to interrupt sequences, you already used it to skip zolom scene in the tas.
i dont know the true requirement
