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Player (114)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
Duran vs Hawk: Duran doesn't learn any spell that couldn't be bought in Byzel (and then even w/out pre-casting time); Dark Hawk's speciality (stat-downs) are already covered by Riesz/Lise/whatever her name is, Light Hawk's spells are redundant with manipulation (sleep and bodychange) or are damage spells (mostly useless here); therefore I could think of both as spell-free; with str-glitching it was Hawk for me. Str glitch: I can't explain it accurately; what I mostly do is basically overloading the game/delaying the lvl-up while sufficient exp has already been collected: -seemingly empty attacks -enemy explosions -dragging the lvl up screen over screen transitions/multiple screens -opening the menu -plain in-game lag (mostly from the stuff above) I don't have any surefire ways, I mostly try many different variations until the game finally gives up, then repeat until I have a couple of different versions and then choose the best of those.
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 4
Location: Japan
thanks. if the glitch works over stat cap, maybe your party is perfect! but if not, I can't tell which member is good (Kevin , Riesz(according to Wikipedia, Lise is fan translation), ?). Well, I continue making TAS to make sure that Duran is useful or not. but my TAS making speed is very slow. so, If you go faster , please tell me the fastest way. (How many candy they need?; which is faster to get Ondine or Salamander?; etc... )
Player (114)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
Seems like I'm finding a new glitch!? I managed to use lv1 techs that were treated like normal attacks dmg wise and didn't consume the tech bar - which is mostly bad since techs take about twice the time; the reverse seems to be possible, too: normal attack that does lv1 tech dmg but on the second hit and drains tech bar. Not sure if it's only second hit, or actually possible for both - but in either case it's at least useable against FMH and later for glitched Kevin when techs would actually slow him down (saber + pwr up); so far only succeeded with Hawk and non-wolf Kevin; wolf Kevin and Duran so far not. Needs further investigation. Current method: A to start attack then change to B as soon as possible. edit: Seems like it can be applied to all attacks of everyone - there just needs to be someone else who is currently using a tech normally, but must be ai controlled. So I guess that favors Hawk since: a) his tech is long enough for Kevin's full attack b) he can get techs with (almost) same frequency
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
If you reach Forthena at night, you only have to talk this girl at the pub in order to make the cannon appear. It might be faster but you have to use a Dreamsee Herb before you get a Chibikko Hammer when you progress the game at a normal or a little faster pace. Autofire seems to stop the characters and the enemies controlled by computer. It is of particular note at the battles against Machine Golems and JE in praetarius3’s wip. At Volcano Island Bucca and River Bank Cave it might be slow to progress the game while you beat enemies. Cockatrices and Pakkun Babies are annoying because they transform. It might be faster to run away. I doubt that you change classes at water or fire region even if you fight enough. Str glitch: It tends to work when you beat the enemies in the screen all together. Opening Y-menu might sometimes be inevitable.
trangix wrote:
...which is faster to get Ondine or Salamander?...
It depends on your strategy. Unless you use a Dreamsee Herb, you will go one of those places in daytime and the other at night. If you’d like to fight against Gold Bulettes, you have to go to desert at night. The armor shop is near to access at Sultan but where you first go should comprehensively be decided.
praetarius3 wrote:
Seems like I'm finding a new glitch!?...
Ah, this may be written as “重ね(性能の入れかわり)” on this site. I’ve not pointed it out, sorry. I don’t perfectly understand it. I thought each lvl1 tech should be used twice with L/R but I may be wrong.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Speaking of transforming enemies, how does that work? I know it's possible to kill enemies without having them transform, but in practice it rarely happens. Slightly more common is that they transform and then immediately die. Do they automatically trigger the transformation at 50% HP or something?
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Acoording to TLaG’s guide on GameFAQs, they change after losing a certain amount of HP (~75% -TLaG), but knock them out in one hit before they change and your battle is that much easier (attack techs come to mind). The strengths will have been maxed out around Laurent with stat cap abuse but I think it’s difficult to avoid their transform even with it. In mandatory fights you should avoid three Pakkun Babies appearing.
Player (114)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
When I class change won't matter much; max str will be achieved before Tzenker or at least until Bill/Ben, so that gives us many "empty" lvls until 18. Later than Mana Land is out, because of necessary backtracking then; earlier needs much more grinding and wouldn't benefit until we hit 19 or 20. Kevin won't class-change at all, since he will be glitched about a minute or two later. about tropical island; I plan to keep the weapons from Rolante until Sultan (or the ice town), so if Kevin+Riesz can't kill an enemy in the time Hawk walks to the exit, then so be it. pub Forcena: if do it like in my first wip, I'll arrive (almost) exactly in Byzel (when I have to talk to that strategist) when night starts - but that would probably be wasted since I wouldn't arrive in time at Tzenker. Read a rumor about it but nothing specific: is it possible to enter the debug room w/out cheats? and also: WIP v2, only up to FMH though
Mastania
He/Him
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
praetarius3 wrote:
about tropical island; I plan to keep the weapons from Rolante until Sultan (or the ice town), so if Kevin+Riesz can't kill an enemy in the time Hawk walks to the exit, then so be it.
Good luck with that D: By the way, this WIP reminded me of something that always bothered me - do enemies give out their exp the moment they die, or do you have to wait for it to flash up on screen to receive it properly?
Waddle Waggle Wattle
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
praetarius3 wrote:
Read a rumor about it but nothing specific: is it possible to enter the debug room w/out cheats?
I don’t think it’s possible w/o cheats.
praetarius3 wrote:
and also: WIP v2, only up to FMH though
You lose 91 frames at the beginning. Other things look optimal.
Mastania wrote:
Do enemies give out their exp the moment they die, or do you have to wait for it to flash up on screen to receive it properly?
They give out their exp the moment they die. Another player cello did a speed run in a single segment. The record is 5hh29mm18ss. I’ll watch it later.
Player (114)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
EXP is given *somewhere* between the moment the enemy drops to 0 hp (in-game death) and the moment his death animation is done (visual death); when exactly depends on how busy the game is. I know that a lose quite a bit of time at the very beginning - you showed me already once; but I'll keep it now. Debug room: I was afraid so, but it was still worth a shot to ask.
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 4
Location: Japan
praetarius3 wrote:
EXP is given *somewhere* between the moment the enemy drops to 0 hp (in-game death) and the moment his death animation is done (visual death); when exactly depends on how busy the game is.
I don't know when it is, but it's delayed when enemy's HP continue changing 0 and 1. it happens - enemy uses some techs before it dead - enemy exist out of display - some lags you should pay attention to this. my Lua will help you. but it doesn't work perfect. getting enemy's info is very difficult because it's inputed random address. this is an example.
address          description
7F80F0          ID
7F80F2          HP
7F80F4          Max HP
7F8153          offence
7F815B          diffence
7F81BF          Exp
7F81C1          Money
this game has "charactor list". list no.0 ~ 2 : hero's ID list no 3 ~ 5 : enemy's ID list no 4 ~ ? : NPC or objects my lua checks the ID of list No.3 ~ 5, then search the enemy's info. but some enemy's info remains after it disappeared. so my lua sometimes gets wrong infomation. I'm not good at programing.
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
I uniquely played through the game with savestate abuse to see what the run would be like. I also watched some player's video. I learned several things. Genova: First you should beat attendants in order to make the animation of power up shorter. Booskaboo and Flammie: Use downarrow key. Desert and Snowfield: Whichever you first go, you should go through both places at night. It takes a while to beat enemies. Use dreamsee herb, take a rest at inn or plan to get there at night. When you set up glitched Kevin, taking damage isn’t necessary. When glitched Kevin gains his lvl in wolf form, he temporarily loses his glitched power until screen transition or using a dreamsee herb. You should avoid his lvl up in mandatory fights where you can’t run away. If you take Duran, you can buy equipments at Pedan except for Kevin w/o losing glitched Kevin. GBs: I beat in order of Wind, Moon, Light, Earth, Wood, Ice and Fire by reference to RaneofSoTN’s order. It looks good. I used a dreamsee herb at Tree Sea of Wonder. I reached Pedan in daytime. Maybe Xan Bie should have been beaten earlier. I couldn’t defeat him before his fire ball. After you beat Doran you cannot use wind drum where you appear, where you fight against Lugar. You have to plan in order not to gain Kevin’s lvl after you beat him. At the battle against Mispolm running away from tentacle might be the fastest way. To do so, you can avoid their magic and special attack. Getting papa poto's claw from papa poto was a little difficult. It took no less than 200 frames. He also drops ??? seed, puipui grass and poto oil so getting from silver knight would be easier and faster. It seems possible to be invincible against physical attacks w/o L/R according to around 1:40 of this video by Beastly242. Count of the Evil Eye and Beautiful Beast have Earth as their common weakness. Though the animation of diamond sabre is longer than that of other sabres, you can save item inventory. When you beat the first great demon and check the first skull switch at dark castle, you can shortcut with magical ropes. The number of magical ropes you have to buy is four, though I’ve not checked it firsthand. I checked it via debug room. I played through Carlie’s quest. I didn't mean to go on so long but I hope it would be helpful.
Player (114)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
GB order I'm not sure moon should come so soon; entering the forest from the village side SETS time to early/mid-night and freezes it until we leave, we should still have nighttime left after the first gb; just the same as mana land does with daytime on the first visit. Entering from the beast kingdom side only halts time for me, but doesn't automatically give night. I'd have thought fire first since I'll be already very close after giving the plot sword away anyway. Debug room Early on I had my hopes up once I recognized which cheat was actually used to get access to the debug room - health for first character! This would be easy enough to get to the needed value (63 hp) except for what the game does when we change to the overworld - copy ALL player statistics to a different area and then set the addresses where the statistics are usually to B4 in hex / 180 in dec: c2ab63 iny A:00b4 X:0007 Y:00f1 S:0af7 D:0200 DB:7f NvMxdIzc V:110 c2ab64 inx A:00b4 X:0007 Y:00f2 S:0af7 D:0200 DB:7f nvMxdIzc V:110 c2ab65 cpx $4a [00024a] A:00b4 X:0008 Y:00f2 S:0af7 D:0200 DB:7f nvMxdIzc V:110 c2ab67 bcc $ab5f [c2ab5f] A:00b4 X:0008 Y:00f2 S:0af7 D:0200 DB:7f NvMxdIzc V:110 c2ab5f lda $46 [000246] A:00b4 X:0008 Y:00f2 S:0af7 D:0200 DB:7f NvMxdIzc V:110 c2ab61 sta ($67),y [7fedf2] A:00b4 X:0008 Y:00f2 S:0af7 D:0200 DB:7f NvMxdIzc V:110 This code is repeated for every single address that's got something to do with our party, oddly enough it seems that any single of those values at a non-b4 value opens the debug room. But I see nothing there I could work with/against, so debug room is out (for now).
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
I’m not familiar with programming. I should study hard. BTW, I checked several Bosses’ AI. Here. Note: These do not include counterattack. ‘/’ means ‘or’. Bill & Ben (Laurant) HP: 900 They start with shuriken/jutsu <=450 They split up and both of their HP become 900. Then both use shuriken/jutsu. <=450 Both of them use shuriken/jutsu. One of them sometimes uses backslash. The other doesn’t. <=225 Both of them use shadow dive. Bill & Ben (Desert) HP: 1152 They start with shuriken/jutsu <=576 They split up and both of their HP become 1152. Then both use shuriken/jutsu. <=576 Both of them use shuriken/jutsu. One of them sometimes uses backslash. The other doesn’t. <=288 Both of them use shadow dive. Lugar HP: 3461 <=1730 Water-Moon Slice/Bastard Slam <=850 Seiryuu Death Fist/Dead Crush/Moon Sabre(Rare) then jab jab uppercut mode. Darkshine Knight HP: 17132 <=8566 Whirlwind Sword (Random) <=4283 Vacuum Sword (Random) He sometimes doesn’t use any tech. Crimson Wizard HP: 14718 (long range) All basic and the second basic magic of fire, ice, wind, earth, saint and dark(Except Dark Force). Continue casting. Sometimes Barrier Change. <=3679 Ancient Death Jester HP: 12606 Start with Blaze Wall/Cold Blaze/Stun Wind/Stone Cloud/Holy Ball(single/all) <=6303 Blaze Wall/Cold Blaze/Stun Wind/Stone Cloud/Death Roulette/Holy Ball(single) <=3151 Fire Ball(all)/Ice Smash(all)/Air Blast(all)/Diamond Missile(all)/Evil Gate(all)/Dark Force(all) The magics when his HP are 1/2 and 1/4 of his max HP have been determined by the beginning of the battle. Heath HP: 11540 Start with Freya/Marduke/Iormungand (long range) Freya/Marduke/Iormungand (middle range) light ball(physical) (short range) run away <=5770 Black Curse 2885-2500? Heal Light + Holy Ball(all)/Saint Beam(all)/Ghoul/Ghost Road/Ghost As long as his HP are in this range he continue casting. Jagan HP: 15947 <=7973 Ghost Road/Black Rain/Death Spell/Dark Force(all) + Psycho Wave(Random) <=3986 Black Rain/Ghost Road + Psycho Wave(Random) (Maybe Death Spell?/Dark Force(all)? I couldn’t confirm it.) Bigieu HP: 40878 <=20439 Lunatic/Half Vanish/Lamian Naga/Body Change/Moon Sabre/Rose Highclaw <=10219 Lunatic/Half Vanish/Lamian Naga/Body Change/Moon Sabre/Rose Highclaw These have been determined by the beginning of the battle.
Player (114)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
Was this already mentioned somewhere? (I mean Kevin dealing tech damage on a normal attack) Link to video (I *think* it happens cause of select during early attack phase but not sure) neo_omegon: what I understand from you list is that (almost) every boss has a "guaranteed" attack that he wants to use at 50% health and one at 25%; at least the first one can be skipped by pushing them into <25% to overwrite it with the second. The second seems to be unavoidable (compare your gorva fight from 2nd page) thanks to their casting-state-godmode.
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
praetarius3 wrote:
Was this already mentioned somewhere? (I mean Kevin dealing tech damage on a normal attack)...
It is a new glitch. Great! It seems useful but it makes TASing more difficult. One of Kevin’s punches is missing. Though it seems hard to cause this glitch, is it possible to hit with both punches?
praetarius3 wrote:
neo_omegon: what I understand from you list is that (almost) every boss has a "guaranteed" attack that he wants to use at 50% health and one at 25%; at least the first one can be skipped by pushing them into <25% to overwrite it with the second. The second seems to be unavoidable (compare your gorva fight from 2nd page) thanks to their casting-state-godmode.
Yeah, action patterns of other bosses are written on njoy, Japanese walkthrough site. I was concerned about those which were not written there so I checked them. BTW, this script by FractalFusion is very useful, although you may already know. edit: This is not faster but this is likely to add entertainment value. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1420122685/SD3%20%28J%29%20movement.smv Note: Sometimes it is slower. (e.g. Opening a door) edit2: I wonder if infinite normal attacks with SELECT/START work like ones with L/R trangix did in his FMH.
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
I started tas of this game in Carlie’s quest with 3-player controllable patch and several other patches. Of course, I’m not going to submit. In the first place hack is prohibited. To watch on snes9x: 1. patch v1.01 of English translation patch on (J) rom. (2. add header.) 3. patch 3-player controllable patch. 4. patch changing titlescreen patch to SoM2. 5. patch improvement patch. Enjoy. Streaming is also available on nicovideo. (account necessary) Maybe I should register youtube and encode it.
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4044
I thought hacks weren't outright forbidden any more. If it adds significant entertainment value it's worth considering.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Player (114)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
regarding Hacks: #4&5 are only visual changes afaik, so it would be a matter of personal taste whether that's an improvement 3 player: might sound great on paper but the overall effect would probably be almost non-existant; any glitch involving L/R/select would be not useable while all three are "active" - and always switching one on/off would be a lot of additional work; a full-attacking Kevin (with L/R stuff) should be better than a "half" Kevin + 1 non-AI character - especially after his glitch-fest. translation patch: always nice to be able to understand whats going on story-wise, but I guess anyone who would be willing to watch a ~4hour TAS would know the game/story to a certain degree anyway. I'm not saying that any of those are bad, just that I don't think they'd add enough entertainment value.
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Praetarius3 is right. In this case, Praetarius3 and Trangix have been making efforts on officially released version day by day. To begin with, a TAS of official version has not been published. I personally want to watch 3-player controllable version. So it’s my ego and I’ll never submit but provide smvs. This game may be hex-edit friendly at least in simple segments. I should have inputted minimally for we can easily share smvs.
Editor, Player (69)
Joined: 1/18/2008
Posts: 663
Watched via Nicozon. I never chose this path so I'd be interested in watching it. Text is slow enough that I can read along. praetarius3: I tend to forget segments, and would rather read the text than let it pass by. I can understand why translation patches are frowned upon but the only way I'll really watch an RPG run not in my native language is if it is extremely short (like the CT glitch runs).
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Player (114)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
SD3 seems to have serious counter-hack&cheat measures or something*, at least I read very often that it's one of the hardest SNES games to hack - so that the hacker (e.g. translator) changes one or two bytes that he wouldn't need to change is very likely; that, and the possibilty that not necessarily all changes are documented, is what would get most hacks disallowed, the chance that by accident another advantage is generated. Honestly, I'd like to use a translation patch, but something seems/is off with those: that a small bit of dialog de-syncs is to be expected, that a simple walk around a corner (with "recorded from now") de-syncs not so much. Link to video *When loading the game from a savepoint the game-data is radically different than before: e.g. add 7FEDF2-FA (player 1's stats in "original state") to ram watch, save (in-game save!), reset, load and watch again; there will be very different values. Once we enter to the world map a 3rd state set is loaded (talk about overkill), once we re-enter a "normal" screen it reverts back to the original state.
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Thanks for testing, praetarius3. And unlike retexture of SM64 and OoT, just an improvement patch also causes desynchronization. I did up to the 3rd floor in the cave. When I opened a chest, inputting direction keys seems to make getting a dreamsee herb a few frames earlier. (See my latest smv.) I have two questions. Are winning pauses of the battle unable to be skipped? Well, I don’t have to redo for I got dreamsee herbs in these floors, but I’m concerned. Second, I can’t skip weapon drawing animations at the beginning of the forth floor. Is there an unknown reason which makes them impossible? My strategy is almost determined but I can’t decide how many Drake’s Scales and Poto’s Oils should be bought.
Player (114)
Joined: 10/21/2010
Posts: 138
4th floor (if you mean the one directly after the bridge where Charlie would be): I had the same problem, trangix succeeded with weapon cancel, but I couldn't reproduce it; since it's only ~20 frames, missing it once isn't that bad. Drake Scales (atk up): they give +25% atk, claws give +10% atk and elemental damage; so if we can organize a claw for it, we shouldn't waste time with a scale. Poto Oil (heal light): so far... I'd make a long shot and say none; normal enemies can be made not to cast at all and physicals can be avoided or made into a miss. Bosses have only one guaranteed attack, none of which spell game over if not healed immediatly - and then there's a free 100% heal after the battle anyway. As far as I recall there no enemies that have guaranteed attacks, only high chances at worst. Skipping the winning message... haven't found a way yet. Regarding the glitch I showed two three posts earlier - I couldn't reproduce it yet; that's so far the only one of that type I managed; curiously it's the same room where I couldn't manage weapon cancel.
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Thanks, praetarius3. Ah, screen or room is a better word than floor. Winning Pause: I mean winning motions not a winning message. Sorry, for my bad English. I and Trangix could do at the screen just before meeting fairy in Rabite Forest, but I couldn’t in the cave. Drake’s Scale: There are possibilities that Drake’s Scales are used in the battles against Bill and Ben (1st and 2nd), 1st Gorva, Lugar and 1st Gildervine. I’m concerned whether the scales should be used other two members except Kevin or not. When Kevin takes damage, his atk. is boosted so I don’t think that it’s necessary for Kevin. (At Gorva it should be used for Kevin, of course.) For his boosting, I may buy armors at Sultan. When a Drake’s Scale is used for glitched Kevin after using a claw for him, his atk. is boosted to 493. Heal Light or something else is substituted for the scale. I think the animation of the scale is shorter than that of Heal Light. I’ll use the scale at least at the battle against 2nd to 4th screens of Danguard, Zan Bia and Land Amber. They are super easy. Poto’s Oil: Hmm…I thought that it is necessary at the battle against Bill and Ben (1st and 2nd). Also, I’ll make Kevin taking damage at desert and snowfield for his boosting. If I get through without Poto’s Oil, I can make the number of opening inventories depositories only one. With Carlie, I have no choice but to try without the oils. And if Carlie’s Sabre is substituted for the claws, I can get through the run without opening an inventory depository.
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