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Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
groobo wrote:
The exit trigger is in the gap between the raised parts of the track, all the way at the end. IIRC you can't reach it if you fall down on the track on either side, so you have to go straight into it when looping.
Alright thanks :D!
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
Sooo... How's that video comming? Anyway, I found some new tricks: Return to the graveyard: I finally discovered a time-saver for this level. Didn't get up the cliff, but it still shortens that general part of the level by quite a bit. Here's how you skip the yellow rune. By jumping into the coffins from the tombstone you can bypass the invisible walls surrounding them (you can also get up on the roof above them and simply drop down there, but this method is faster). From there just jump towards the sweetspot from either coffin (yes, this also works from the one laying flat on the ground). It seems a bit random, but at least we know it works. Also, I checked and taking the right-hand cliff is waaaay faster than the other one, not to mention that you can jump straight to the boss trigger from there, instead of waiting for Dan to recover from the fall before being able to move again like when jumping from the left cliff. The graveyard: After you first enter the area with the turning statue, head straight and get up to the higher level by jumping onto the tombstone and jumping once more. From there (the blue part is a bit higher than the rest of the area, I could only make it from there) you can jump onto one of the tree's branches, onto the stone thingie, and finally over the invisible wall. You want to get the bottle or you don't - either way this is faster than turning the statue or taking the long way around.
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
groobo wrote:
Sooo... How's that video comming? Anyway, I found some new tricks: Return to the graveyard: I finally discovered a time-saver for this level. Didn't get up the cliff, but it still shortens that general part of the level by quite a bit. Here's how you skip the yellow rune. By jumping into the coffins from the tombstone you can bypass the invisible walls surrounding them (you can also get up on the roof above them and simply drop down there, but this method is faster). From there just jump towards the sweetspot from either coffin (yes, this also works from the one laying flat on the ground). It seems a bit random, but at least we know it works. Also, I checked and taking the right-hand cliff is waaaay faster than the other one, not to mention that you can jump straight to the boss trigger from there, instead of waiting for Dan to recover from the fall before being able to move again like when jumping from the left cliff. The graveyard: After you first enter the area with the turning statue, head straight and get up to the higher level by jumping onto the tombstone and jumping once more. From there (the blue part is a bit higher than the rest of the area, I could only make it from there) you can jump onto one of the tree's branches, onto the stone thingie, and finally over the invisible wall. You want to get the bottle or you don't - either way this is faster than turning the statue or taking the long way around.
Sorry, lol, I'll encode it and upload it right now. The one that I meant for you atleast, and the one for skychase later. And thanks for finding those, and I'll definitely be getting the life bottle there. Even if it ends up not really helping on Zarok's lair, you also have to think that there are parts in this where we "Take Damage to save time" and it's untelling what our health will be at that point, so... The bigger the better. I'mma do the recording, and then I'm going to redo the first WIP since it's been improved, and then, I'll just do the TAS as how you'd normally play the game. It's kinda a headache, the Gauntlet, and you're definitely better than I am at finding things, so if you ever figure anything out from the video I show you, tell me. We atleast know that one method works (the Gallows Gauntlet skip), only problem is how to get passed the invisible wall. But I'm beginning to think there might be other ways. Edit: Here ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-GP-r-zwek
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
Downloaded MHS, found the right ram address for the gauntlet, and had some fun. We can basically scratch every idea we had about skipping this level... EXCEPT ONE. God damnit, try to clip through it with locking your speed at max a couple of times so you know what you should be aiming for. Then try and reach that point with a kb dash jump. If that fails, try to do the same but with a boost from something. We can reach that sweetspot, height-wise, even from about the middle of the corridor - we simply need some extra distance in order to skip a huge chunk of the game :d. This better work.
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
groobo wrote:
Downloaded MHS, found the right ram address for the gauntlet, and had some fun. We can basically scratch every idea we had about skipping this level... EXCEPT ONE. God damnit, try to clip through it with locking your speed at max a couple of times so you know what you should be aiming for. Then try and reach that point with a kb dash jump. If that fails, try to do the same but with a boost from something. We can reach that sweetspot, height-wise, even from about the middle of the corridor - we simply need some extra distance in order to skip a huge chunk of the game :d. This better work.
I'll check into it :), lol you crack me up bad xD Edit: Okay, here's the news on that. It will work, which is very good news, no major speed needed, and the height is just right. I'll record a video showing it, sadly I regret to say it's extremely hard to reproduce from the beginning, so I'll have to do it in mid air, Dan's Head has to clip exactly in between the dragon's mouth, ironically. I'll show the video in frame advance, otherwise it wouldn't be beneficial really to you. I'll work on it more trying to get it. The speed needed when Dan touches the dragon has to be 20 or higher, if it's any less, it will not work. I'll edit this again after I make the video and upload it. Edit2: Here's the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_t5X2eM9I0, and the description in the video which explains how to do this in a .. vague manor Description: You must not be at the height of your jump (depending on where you jump), I'm not sure if there's a pixel perfect area where you can jump to do this, I'll have to do more research. It isn't perfectly optimal, but it will do for now, as this is just a demonstration. To get this to work, Dan's head has to be in the dragon's mouth, ironically. You have to have at least a speed value of 20 to get this to work (20 or higher). So, if we can get the beginning part (the jump itself) fixed right, and actually maintaining a speed of 20 or higher, then this skip is very well possible. Basically, we have to have a speed that will get us to that point, but a speed that doesn't make us go too high. The speed must still be over 20 when we touch that mark (the green mark in the image below), there can't be any touching of a directional button in the opposite direction, otherwise it'll reduce the speed to 0. Basically, it has to be pixel perfect, or it won't work. But, if that didn't make sense. Then basically, we need to jump at.... a perfect projectory. Image: http://i54.tinypic.com/2cgdd0m.jpg About the Image: - The ? Mark = Where to star, but... It's a question mark for a reason, I don't currently know where. - The Red - Angle in which to jump - The Blue - Represents Solid Objects - The Green - The part in where Dan's Skull must fall through in order for this to work. - The Purple - Where touching the green will make you fall, and once you fall, you're in an out of bounds area, according to the game, so basically, we just move towards the purple part and the clip is complete. - Invisible walls are not shown but are understood to be there. - 9000?!
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
I know that it can be done legit and what Dan's speed/height/direction need to be, so you don't have to bother with the video. Just for the sake of confirmation: you did pull it off LEGIT, right? edit: Posted this before you edited your post. You got at least one thing wrong: We CAN be at the peak of our jump so our starting point can be located at a lower z-coordinate (eg. at the middle of the corridor). Dan will go clean through the barrier, instead of dropping straight down and clipping into the fire at floor-level. There's no need to overcomplicate this or even put it into words - just do a kb dash jump for that extra bit of distance, which I was lacking in real-time. I gave up after not being able to even do a pseudo kb for like 20 minutes. Since it's basically child's play with frame-advance, it'll take you less than this to find the optimal position, angle and input sequence. edit2: The ghost ship: We can finally skip the ENTIRE level by starting the loop basically at the start, like this. Also, I checked what's the best place to recover the club to prepare for zarok's lair and it turns out that instead of dropping straight to the exit trigger in this level, you should rather fall into the invisible wall around the crates blocking the steering wheel at the end. From there you can grab a new club from the chest and are still be able to clip back through the crates. I also took my precious time to, well, time and compare a couple of strats: First of all, we don't need the small sword at all. Not really comparing anything but you'll save around a full second if you don't grab it. (Assuming I'm not crazy and we manage to skip the dragon armor) Getting the club at the mausoleum is faster by approx. 2s, compared to the one in cemetery hill. Getting the daggers in the mausoleum is about half a second faster than in dan's crypt. You can hit the chest while still pushing the block. The (even when highly unoptimized) old, on-foot method is faster than looping in the lake by a handful of seconds. The bottle in the graveyard is a waste of time. THE ONLY PLACE we have to sacrifice time in order to regain health is at the battle with zarok. We only need to survive four rounds of contact damage and we can survive two with less than two bars of health (a single bottle). That means we only have to get two vials after the second round and with the right manipulation both are located like a step away from you at the time you need to grab them. This costs you less than a second, while grabbing the graveyard bottle is more than three.
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
Thanks again for figuring out things, I'll mess around with this and optimize the gate skip (if I ever figure out how to do it in perfectly), and then optimize getting up the hill in cemetery hill (figure out what method is faster in reality, and then really, it's done, there may be small time savers here and there, but I could just hex them in with TAS Movie editor if we figure them out. I'll be posting my work soon, as this is Thanksgiving weekend, I'll have alot of time to no-life complete this. Edit: To get the height that I got in that video, I jumped at a speed of 100, disabled cheats, and did it normally, enabling cheats again to have the value of speed at 20 (the minimum speed needed - I tested it alot, 19 doesn't work this way, 21 does, so that means 20 might, and testing with, it does), and even with anything higher than that (I tested atleast 30 values) it still works (the way I showed in the video. The reason why I used the cheat option to have it at 20, is some weird game mechanic made my falling speed still have positive values (probably due to using cheat, and then disabling it) but makes my speed go from 100 to 0, and if I were to press up, the max speed it would go to is 16-17, which, isn't enough, but obviously.. If this was done legitally, I'd have over a speed value of 20 anyways... So in theory, if we can jump the height needed (and pretty much I think we can easily do this), it's very well possible. And, I know that your method is obviously better (just clipping into the slanted part of the wall), but I just mean, the lowest value I got it to work (doing this in 10's) was 60, and 60 was just barely, 70 is just barely as well, 80 is easily done, 50, I was only able to do it the way mentioned above. The thing also to keep in mind is, values in the game decrease and increase massively, where as with manually changing the RAM, it's locked at a certain value, and you never lose speed or gain it. So, for this method, we'd have to a good amount of speed to do it legitally, and I just don't know if this would actually work. I have been trying a lot on this, and will hopefully get it, because this is the breakthrough I'm wanting so badly, but as of now, even though we know it will work, it has to be basically perfect, and working on it :/ *sigh*
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Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
Status Update Groobo. I'm at the Crystal Caves after only 12 minutes and 20ish seconds (44580 Frames). And even that can be improved some, that is of course, using the path if we can skip the Gauntlet, and whenever I get this WIP up to that point (basically the only thing I need to do is skip the platform in the Crystal Caves, and optimize massively a few things, and then I can no-life style figure out how to do the skip at the Gauntlet). Uhm, to save myself hours, can you show me where exactly the spot is where I kb dash over the platform in the Crystal Caves? I've tried a few spots, but they either push me over the edge, or won't reach xD. Here's my time table of things (these are estimations, but near accurate I'm sure): If maximum optimized could save: [In Seconds] 1.) Dan's Crypt: 0 (Maximum optimized, saves 1 second over the, now obsolete, WIP) 2.) The Graveyard: 0 (Maximum optimized, saves numerous seconds over the, now obsolete, WIP) 3.) Cemetery Hill: 1-2?/0??... In this, I went around the hill through the level and up the hill that way, I'm pretty sure though that this way is possibly faster than the other proposed way, but obviously I'm not going to just assume on the real thing. Tomorrow morning I will make 2 different TAS's, both maximally optimized to see, which is truly faster. 4.) Hilltop Mausoleum: (The stage itself, not including the Boss): 0-1 seconds (A very solid a straight forwards route, I really don't see aside from a frame here or a frame there improvement, it ~MAY~ add up to be a second... I'll be testing a lot). 5.) Stained Glass Demon: 1-3???/ 0??(I know how to manipulate him when first entering the battle so that he immediately jumps into his "showing heart phase", but after that... I don't know if you can immediately make him do it again, or what :P) 6.) Return to the graveyard: (The stage itself, not including the Boss): 0-1 (I probably could optimize the star rune skip a bit more, and also do a few things here and there). 7.) Guardian Wolves: 0 (Max Optimized, pure awesome battle (I'll be making a video of this itself soon, just so you know what I'm talking about). 8.) The Enchanted Earth: ??? ...I have to test if yours and skychases route, truly is faster than my route that I used in the video I posted a week or so ago, then again... I didn't exactly use you and his route either, you 2 jump over to the east.. and I use the inventory glitch to fall A.S.A.P. So, >.> 9.) Pools of the Ancient Dead: Dear God you don't want to know. I definately need to work on this one.. But, the fact that it was giving me a headache, made me just do it the best way I can and move on. I'm assuming at least 5-15 seconds if I can optimize the thing.. And also can save club % here. 10.) Crystal Caves: ??? (I probably could optimize the starting room just a tad bit, save possible 20 frames or so, as for anything else, I couldn't tell you because this is where I'm at). 11.) The Gallows Gauntlet: Burn in hell level, burn.... 12.) The Haunted Ruins: Yet to do of course, but... Can save 20-30 seconds over the video I posted which is, fantastic, with the loop trick/inventory glitch combo. 13.) The Ghost Ship: Yet to do, but do the early loop by your new method, glitch in between the wall, refill club %.. Will save a fair amount of time over the video I posted. 14.) The Entrance Hall: Yet to do, but we save nothing in this, compared to my first pxm file. In the first pxm file, I refill my life, but say i skipped that, we save nothing I mean. 15.) The Time Device: Yet to do, but saves numerous seconds over my first pxm file run. As well, I've tested this myself, and i'll have a video of this up as well as one of a few other things I want to show you to make sure I'm doing these well :). 16.) Zarok's Lair: Yet to do, but, it DOES save time over my first pxm file run, just because of the first fight, but the rest can't be compared because both Zarok's General and Zarok himself get pwn'd by Dragon armor, and... we won't have this :P. In total optimization could save: Around 15 seconds Edit: I'll get all the videos and everything that needs to be put up on youtube tomorrow. I think I made a few levels quite entertaining by touching zombies, yet, being undamaged by them. Also, swerving around in between multiple zombies. And the speed itself, and the total "wtf moments" add to the entertainment. So, I'm doing quite well I guess ;D
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
3) What do you want to time and compare again? Getting the club is faster in the following level, even in real time. 8) But using the inventory glitch at the second lift was what I repeatedly pointed out since I discovered it, so I'm not sure what you mean by 'my' route. As for the crystal caves, here's how I did it in real-time: 1) Lure a goblin to as close to the ledge as possible and close enough to the left wall for you to be able to "run lock" between him and the wall (run without moving). 2) When you're ready, change Dan's direcion to AWAY from where you want to go and do the kb dash jump. The timing can be pretty strict, because just a few frames after you change directions, Dan will slip out from the locked position. 3) You only need to pull off a pseudo kb dash jump. A proper one would be faster, but I'm not sure if it's possible in such setting. Well, I'm not sure about number one. Maybe simply running straight against a wall and doing the kb from there would work too, instead of getting the goblin first. Also, I'm not really sure if doing a run taking the "gauntlet skip" route, without knowing if it's even doable with legit means, has any point. Then again, you're already at the crystal caves, so what the hell :p.
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Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
groobo wrote:
3) What do you want to time and compare again? Getting the club is faster in the following level, even in real time. 8) But using the inventory glitch at the second lift was what I repeatedly pointed out since I discovered it, so I'm not sure what you mean by 'my' route. As for the crystal caves, here's how I did it in real-time: 1) Lure a goblin to as close to the ledge as possible and close enough to the left wall for you to be able to "run lock" between him and the wall (run without moving). 2) When you're ready, change Dan's direcion to AWAY from where you want to go and do the kb dash jump. The timing can be pretty strict, because just a few frames after you change directions, Dan will slip out from the locked position. 3) You only need to pull off a pseudo kb dash jump. A proper one would be faster, but I'm not sure if it's possible in such setting. Well, I'm not sure about number one. Maybe simply running straight against a wall and doing the kb from there would work too, instead of getting the goblin first.
@3: I meant whether doing it noramlly, or clipping (by the fence. straight from where you start the level) up the mountain is faster. @8: Ahh, well then, what the hell was skychase going on about with this http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk227/skychase2rebirth/Right.jpg lmao? xD .. Ehh nevermind ^^; --- For the caves, thanks. I'm not the best at getting the weird angle kb dashes.. Just the.. straight ones really. I'll update tomorrow. Thanks again :)
skychase
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Joined: 3/25/2007
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Location: Quebec, Canada
Torn338 wrote:
@8 Ahh, well then, what the hell was skychase going on about with this http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk227/skychase2rebirth/Right.jpg lmao? xD .. Ehh nevermind ^^; ---
When you started the TAS, I didn't remember where to jump for the glitch, then I remembered this... um... jump in the screenshot was just something I dreamed about long time ago lol, I searched for something that doesn't even exist xD, forget about it... I'm waiting for new awesome WIPs
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
Oh, haha guess that makes sense then, well nevertheless, here's 2 videos that I got up in spare time today. Return to the Graveyard - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htY_bn_mhEU Boss of level - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1DtNiZo5_k I also need to do a little testing here and there on things. But, whenever I can.. I'll have work on the thing again. I've got the route, and every little thing to save time. Even though the return to the graveyard level is pretty good, in my opinion, it can be improved, so I'll have to start from there. Also, I'm going to make a few TAS's of different levels to figure out every little detail, even if I only find 1-2 frames of improvement. Anyway, I'll record what I can, and post a new WIP (the old WIP is obsolete), which part 1 goes up to beating return to the graveyard. WIP 2 up to the Gauntlet. and WIP 3 is the finished product. And, if I still yet to manage to skip the Gauntlet, then another WIP .. probably something like 2.5 >.>, will just start from after return to the graveyard. But, I believe its possible xD.
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
I would still advise you to figure out the gauntlet skip before anything else. There's a good chance you're wasting time right now. As for the WIP: - Taking the right hand route at the beginning is faster. - After jumping the zombies in front of the big red gate, if you aren't holding any directional keys at the moment you hit the ground, Dan won't slide and you'll be able to enter the inventory straight away. - You probably can run straight at the tombstone, instead of curving around first and change Dan's direction right before falling ontop of it. - You should enter this level at full health so you can skip getting the vial at the end, which saves only like 2-3 frames, but still. - Try experimenting with the club sequence at the boss, because I'm sure I was able to finish him at the moment the second wolf appears, instead of his mid attack. General: - You can actually jump above all enemies, instead of curving around every single one, in order to stay at the optimal trajectory - thus saving frames. - You didn't stick to a single 'correct' trajectory, instead you're basically running in often small, sometimes huge zigzags. Either you're paying too much attention to the camera, or you don't want to make Dan stutter-walk. Either way - if you don't correct this it'll pile up to multiple seconds, if not a full minute, over the course of the whole game.
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
groobo wrote:
I would still advise you to figure out the gauntlet skip before anything else. There's a good chance you're wasting time right now. As for the WIP: - Taking the right hand route at the beginning is faster. - After jumping the zombies in front of the big red gate, if you aren't holding any directional keys at the moment you hit the ground, Dan won't slide and you'll be able to enter the inventory straight away. - You probably can run straight at the tombstone, instead of curving around first and change Dan's direction right before falling ontop of it. - You should enter this level at full health so you can skip getting the vial at the end, which saves only like 2-3 frames, but still. - Try experimenting with the club sequence at the boss, because I'm sure I was able to finish him at the moment the second wolf appears, instead of his mid attack. General: - You can actually jump above all enemies, instead of curving around every single one, in order to stay at the optimal trajectory - thus saving frames. - You didn't stick to a single 'correct' trajectory, instead you're basically running in often small, sometimes huge zigzags. Either you're paying too much attention to the camera, or you don't want to make Dan stutter-walk. Either way - if you don't correct this it'll pile up to multiple seconds, if not a full minute, over the course of the whole game.
- Oh, lol I thought when you said right hand side, you meant in the place with the chalice... >.<; oh well, no harm done as I'm fixing things later today. - About me wasting time, I don't think I am, but, say I am, that's what the TAS movie editor is for :) - Thanks for that :), about the thing at the gate - Possibly you could, but (I can't remember) I think I curved around to jump on it for a reason, will check today. - We can't enter the level at full health, because of the boss fight previous to this. The fastest way to kill him uses the term "Takes Damage to save time". - Possibly it's possible to end the fight itself faster, but the point that it takes Dan to reach the gate. Makes killing the boss faster give us 0 frames, however, I'm sure you know that, and that's not what you're meaning. The text that follows is, so, I'll try xD - Curving around the zombies is more entertaining, jumping is the same speed that you were when you jumped, unless releasing the directional keys or moving it in the opposite direction, but at times albeit slower in general, it's faster in some spots (in the graveyard level - I should have that up later today), but not everywhere. - Ahh crap, I didn't realize o.o, I should just abuse the camera (not going insane with it) to make Dan turn at points instead of doing horrid like that. I'll fix everything and post back. Edit: I've obsoleted everything, imrpoved many things, and working on max optimization for the levels. Working on the Gauntlet right now.
skychase
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I agree
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Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
Well here's all I can really say... As of right now, the Gauntlet is impossible to skip. I really hate to say it, but nothing works. I've gone through trial and error so much, with every possible change.. And nothing. So, if we ever truly manage to skip the Gauntlet, then Dan's sword is skippable, but... Until then, we need to pick it up for The Asylum. I'm just messing around with things, doing school work (school truly is a fail), and taking time off being lazy as well. I'm going to get this run finished before Christmas, and most likely before next Saturday. But here's the final layout of the run, if you guys are interested. Dan's Crypt The Graveyard Cemetery Hill Hilltop Mausoleum Return to the Graveyard Scarecrow Fields Sleeping Village The Asylum Grounds The Asylum Pumpkin Gorge (To replace the club is why we do these 2nd) The Pumpkin Serpent The Enchanted Earth Pools of the Ancient Dead The Lake The Crystal Caves The Gallows Gauntlet The Haunted Ruins The Ghost Ship The Entrance Hall The Time Device Zarok's Lair - In Dan's Crypt - Jump at a diagonal angle at the only few frames possible to turn Dan facing the sword. Pick up star rune, go the path straight forward to the life bottle and star rune gate, exit the level. This is a lot faster than all other methods, I see maybe just maybe but I doubt it 2 frames of improvement, but I doubt it. - The Graveyard - We just do the level as if you were speed running it, I've got it pretty optimized as well. - Cemetery Hill - Use the clip glitch to clip through the rocks. Conserve the club as much as possible. Use fire outside the entrance to the witch cove to save time. Complete level as normal. - Hilltop Mausoleum - Complete level as if you were speed running it. Get throwing dagger's in boss room (fastest way to get them). - Return to the graveyard - As in the video I have on youtube (check here : http://www.youtube.com/user/GistAssassin ) I think it's the first video, or should be. Everything is basically the same except for when going up the stairs (that really was a fail, to this day I'll say that), using the key faster, getting into the caretakers place (according to the sign :D) faster, killing the boss a few frames faster. ~constant dash uses from here on out usually~ - Scarecrow Fields - Level as normal speedrun - Sleeping Village - See skips on post #3 on page #1 - The Asylum Grounds - Only level I need to do research on - The Aslum - The first room uses the sword, the next room uses the sword and club, the next room uses the club, the next room uses the club, the next room uses the club. Pick up dragon gym, and level complete. - Pumpkin Gorge - Uses Groobo's skip for parts of it (if it's faster that is). I'm sure you guys done know what I'm talking about here, it should be on post 3 though. - Pumpkin Serpent - Basically the level as normal, but here's some "fun facts". You can actually damage the boss while the cutscene is going on, so in a 100% run this should definately help. I'll test things ofcourse and use the fastests method ;). - The Enchanted Earth - Uses enchanted earth skip, level is complete in under a minute. - Pools of the Ancient Dead - Uses Groobo's belly push skip to exit level. - The Lake - Gate Skip to exit level. (Will test to see which is faster, the left side, or the right.. But most likely the left side. - The Crystal Caves - Level as normal, in a speed run sense. - The Gallows Gauntlet - Level as normal, in a speed run sense. - The Haunted Ruins - Uses Early loop trick, to loop to King Peregrine's room, complete level as normal until stone golems. Loop at stone golems, to catapult, uses catapult to end level. - The Ghost Ship - Uses Early loop trick, to clip into the thing between the exit trigger area and the club, we get the club and exit the level, while the boss fight is still going on :P. - The Entrance Hall - Does not need an explanation.... DOES IT? - The Time Device - Loop Several times until you pick up the red rune, run to the red gate, go inside where the train is (it's an off set location obviously), loop trick into the exit trigger (behind barriers in this level) - Zarok's Lair - OH Snap, I seem to have come up with a case of... Amnesia, I've forgotten, perhaps I might remember when I publish this thing? Who knows (Obviously a funny way to get people hyped at this lol). The entertainment factors, are mostly the "wtf" moments such as the loop trick usage, completing things asap, killing bosses such as the guardian wolves before they can even attack, completely skipping the Enchanted Earth, the Shadow Artifact, and maybe one day, the Dragon Gems. But yeah, I hope that's a good status update :p
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Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
IIRC doing the pumpkin branch before the asylum one is better. The only good place to replenish the club's durability is in the sleeping village, when getting the golden statue. Assuming you take this route first, you'll go through the asylum, get to the pumpkin serpent, and you'll be all out of club before you even land a hit on it. You should have about enough durability after the scarecrow fields (if not, you can replenish on this level too) in order to do the pumpkins first. @everything before scarecrow fields: What about using kbd as a form of movement? If it really doesn't work "at a funny angle", there are plenty of places where you're facing a wall dead-on anyway. Remember that you can do it with a sword. @ghost ship: Just some trivia - the boss never appears if you get to him while looping. @the time device: Wait, what? But you can get to the exit trigger straight from where you start the level probably with a single loop, two at worst. Also you should check if you can kill the pumpkin serpent with a single extra life bottle (600hp total). And I forgot to reply to your earlier post, one thing in particular: you can easily avoid taking any damage at the mausoleum boss, without wasting time. His stream of shards is actually fired in a couple of pretty big series. This basically means that with the right timing by strafing left and right using the L2 button (or whatever button it was) you avoid taking any damage. This is childishly easy even in real time and it looks cool too. Can't wait for some WIPs! edit5: The gauntlet! Care to share some detail on why it doesn't work? This doesn't make much sense to me since you can almost reach that spot with a regular dash jump. Did you try the snake guy? Locking yourself between a wall and a zombie? A full kbd without any of the above things?
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
Well here's what I was thinking, the reason why to do the Asylum branch first is because of this. From Scarecrow fields, aside from the robotic imps, we don't have to kill anything, next would be going on to the sleeping village, again, we only kill what is necessary, in the asylum grounds, we can kill nothing, speaking of the level read below for what I have to say on it, and the asylum itself we use that method I said before, now our club is basically at less than 10%, or worse, then we can go to pumpkin gorge to refresh it, seeing as we have to go that route anyway, then use the club on the pumpkin, along with the explosion box thing during the cutscene and using dash rapidly for even more damage. I've still not tested whether or not using the next box too is faster, but I'm going to today, now after this, we don't kill anything in the Enchanted Earth as we loop to finish the level, the pools of the ancient dead is where we will need to use the club maybe for the stupid zombie, in the Lake nothing either, and finally in Crystal Caves we can get a replacement on the club in the dragons room (Pick it up after using the gems/talking to the dragon) if i'm not mistaken atleast because it may be out of the "use range" for the gems, then that's basically it for the rest of the game, as the rest of the levels we loop aside from the Entrance Hall, but is that even a level *cough*, and for Zarok, we've got it in the bag too :p. Now, if we do the pumpkin first after scarecrow fields, it'll be something like this (assume we have 100% club starting with). We can skip refilling the club because its already 100%, we can dash into the secret area to skip using the club's % against the wall, now we're in the beginning place where we could use the moon rune on the hand, or go out of bounds... Well here's 2 options we can do. 1.) We can use the moon rune and go into the building, dash across the thing, get the red rune without turning the churn, and go back, and do the level as normal. 2.) Or your method which is forget the churn room, and go straight for the oob area, to the green rune, and then do the level as normal. Now, If just thinking about it, number 2 is faster in your head, but it may not be. I really hope I can use TAS editor on these without it desyncing :p this part. After pumpkin gorge, onto the boss level, we kill the pods (I've got a pretty good pod route), fight the boss, get the gem, and complete it, at this point the clubs probably at like 75%. Onto the Sleeping Village, we can refill the club in the basement place, so club is at 100%, or we could skip refilling it here, either one works. The end of this level requires us to use the club to kill several guards, though we can use manipulation here to line them up to kill them all in 1-2 hits, but still for every guard we lose %'s, the asylum itself basically breaks the club, as we have to use it to get the most out of speed here, so since theres no replacement without backtracking, our club is broken, and we still have the armored zombie to worry about, is why I'm thinking that the asylum route is better first. If counting speed, they're both fairly equal in it, 1 is possibly faster than the other, which is I'm assuming the route I've proposed, but if you really think about it, they're both basically the same. Basically, what ever has the highest club % in the Aslylum and Pumpkin Serpent levels is what we want to use, and the higher % the better right? :p About the Asylum Grounds, now, there is probably no clipping here (and as you can tell I'm quite terrible at clips/clipping) I don't believe, but I've found out some pretty great things with this level. 1.) We have to talk to Jack to open up an area outside of the beginning area deleting some invisible walls. 2.) We need to get on top of the maze, somehow, and it's possible in many locations. 3.) We can skip all of his trials, and go straight for the exit.. Still though, we have to do the chess puzzle, but it's not big seeing as we've skipped 5 minutes. Some fun things: - If you do the clown puzzle before you do the star puzzle, the second you talk to jack after finishing the star puzzle, he'll say the things he would have said if you just now finished the clown puzzle. - The puzzle with lights won't activate until you've talked to Jack to begin the puzzle. - On the Rat puzzle, we can use manipulation to make the rat run in the direction of the elephant, by scaring it with a cat, and even though it's not following us, we can run straight to the elephant, and it will still scare it, as long as the rat is near it. - In oob, there is spots that you can jump in, and levitate. - There's actually a place that if you look at it from one side, it is white, instead of its original color. This is just a proposal of ofcourse. But I see this very likely possible compared to the difficulty of the Gauntlet. Now here is why it won't work. 1.) We don't have enough height. We have to get above an invisible wall, to fall into an area, between it, and another invisible wall, basically, in that video I put up, I was actually in an out of bounds area, and that's why it pushes you in or out. The other method doesn't work either as the invisible wall there is terrifically high. I've done every angle of kbd to an extent, dash jumped, enemy pushing, but I don't think speed has anything to do with it, but just about height. The upside is, I'm sure someone with better skills than me will look at this sometime in the future and figure out a way to do it, I've got 25091 rerecords on this one movie file of just trying to figure it out, and nothing, and a lot more rerecords on other movie files. It just won't happen as of yet. 2.) As I said, speed has nothing to do with clipping, but it does have something to do with height, however, it doesn't increase our height. What I mean is, if we dash, the height is basically the same, as if we were jumping, same with kbd. Basically, its all about projectory. And I've tried every inch of the slanted area, and nothing. But, if we had enough speed, to jump from the top, of the place, then, it would work. But as of now, jumping from the top makes us land at the bottom of the fires. However, I do also have good things to say too, but this wouldn't be used in a real legit run of the game, but in a RAM manipulation run, if anybody ever figures out how to do it in this game (I don't understand any of that), then we possibly could use it to get having the dragon armor as a value of 1 (saying we have it), instead of 0. Or, we could just give the star rune a value of 1. Or just completely give us a value, saying we already finished the level, even though we haven't even been in it. Theoretically, we could use the kbd as a form of movement, basically it is faster then running, but it's only useful in so many places. After pxm file 2 is up, pxm file 3 is just going to be a bunch of TASMovie edits :P. Now, right now, I'm working on the stained glass demon bass, and I've spent hours trying to make it look exiting, and as fast as possible, but really, I'm wasting time when I could just do edits later, so, I'mma just rap up the boss, and go on. As for everything else, like I said, I've got everything basically done, in my head, and can easily do them, so, it's good. Later today, I'll have WIP 1 up, maybe more, I don't know. Still my deadline for this is Dec. 25th, and I'm going to keep that, unless we discover an amazing time saving glitch again, and I have to start over :p. I hope that's helped give you an idea now of everything. If there's anything else you need to know/that you could tell me, please inform me *tries to sound professional*.
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
Umm, considering that the asylum and pumpkin branches are done exactly alike, no matter which is done first, it all goes down to after which route it is faster to replenish the club. We can complete the first branch, no matter which, without replenishing the club at all. Now if we first do the pumpkins, the best place to replenish is at the basement of the house with the golden statue in the sleeping village - directly on your path, takes 2s to get at most. If doing the asylum first, the ONLY place where we can replenish is at the underground part of pumpikn gorge, which we don't even enter (the regular route is faster by quite a bit). It's a no brainer, really. @pumpkin gorge: After getting up the walls we can jump over the fence surrounding the tower in the middle area and continue from there. There's no need for the green rune and this was mentioned a fair amount of posts back. @asylum grounds: I've spent a huge amount of time just trying this level and the only place I could get up the walls is at the chess puzzle. I've put myself in various high places and tried to reach the walls from there, but all the ones I've tried are extended with an invisible wall high enough for it to be out of our reach. @gauntlet: I think it has nothing to do with height, seeing how I did it from about the middle of the slanted path using the speed hack. I'm certain that there's simply no room for error in your trajectory and you have to go clean through. This makes sense if there's a pixel perfect hole in the wall for Dan to go through - if you reach the wall while being a single pixel too high, instead of going clean through you'll stop from hitting the wall and won't have enough momentum once you fall down to the correct altitude in order to make it to the other side. The reason we could do it with the speed hack is that even if you overshoot it your speed is still locked at 127, thus making it possible for us to go through even with the most subpar trajectory. So yeah, maybe it really is a matter of height - if so, it means that instead of trying to get as high as possible you really should've tried going lower. @RAM: Actually I wonder what exactly happens when you use the replenish glitch with a weapon without quantity or percentage, lika a small sword. In the mausoleum you can recover at least two extra small swords, but it has no appearent result. Maybe it changes the value of some random ram address, which could very well be an important one. You should take a look at this with ram watch, as it may lead to something useful. Other than that I'm still out of ideas and I still can't wait for that WIP.
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
groobo wrote:
Umm, considering that the asylum and pumpkin branches are done exactly alike, no matter which is done first, it all goes down to after which route it is faster to replenish the club. We can complete the first branch, no matter which, without replenishing the club at all. Now if we first do the pumpkins, the best place to replenish is at the basement of the house with the golden statue in the sleeping village - directly on your path, takes 2s to get at most. If doing the asylum first, the ONLY place where we can replenish is at the underground part of pumpikn gorge, which we don't even enter (the regular route is faster by quite a bit). It's a no brainer, really. @pumpkin gorge: After getting up the walls we can jump over the fence surrounding the tower in the middle area and continue from there. There's no need for the green rune and this was mentioned a fair amount of posts back. @asylum grounds: I've spent a huge amount of time just trying this level and the only place I could get up the walls is at the chess puzzle. I've put myself in various high places and tried to reach the walls from there, but all the ones I've tried are extended with an invisible wall high enough for it to be out of our reach. @gauntlet: I think it has nothing to do with height, seeing how I did it from about the middle of the slanted path using the speed hack. I'm certain that there's simply no room for error in your trajectory and you have to go clean through. This makes sense if there's a pixel perfect hole in the wall for Dan to go through - if you reach the wall while being a single pixel too high, instead of going clean through you'll stop from hitting the wall and won't have enough momentum once you fall down to the correct altitude in order to make it to the other side. The reason we could do it with the speed hack is that even if you overshoot it your speed is still locked at 127, thus making it possible for us to go through even with the most subpar trajectory. So yeah, maybe it really is a matter of height - if so, it means that instead of trying to get as high as possible you really should've tried going lower. @RAM: Actually I wonder what exactly happens when you use the replenish glitch with a weapon without quantity or percentage, lika a small sword. In the mausoleum you can recover at least two extra small swords, but it has no appearent result. Maybe it changes the value of some random ram address, which could very well be an important one. You should take a look at this with ram watch, as it may lead to something useful. Other than that I'm still out of ideas and I still can't wait for that WIP.
It's uploading right now, I'm not sure what I've done but instead of being around 50-100k kb , it's 356k kb :p, which really isn't a big deal, it'll just take longer to upload. About the vial in return to the graveyard, the jump that it takes to get it does have a very small amount of time lost to get it, like 4 frames, but it's made up elsewhere. Also, at the main end of the video, whenever it's finally upload, ignore the boss battle with the stained glass demon, and after talking to the gargoyle at the end, I forgot to use dash there, but I've done fixed it... I'm not quite sure why I keep making simple mistakes ;_;. I see your idea now of why to do the pumpkin one first now. BUT just to make sure I'm not mistaken, you're saying don't even enter the place where the moon rune, club, and chalice are, and just go around, with where the rocks fall, etc.? I'm sorry >.>, I forgot about that earth rune skip. For the grounds, I'll mess around with it and see if I can figure out anything. For the Gauntlet, even though what your saying makes completely perfect sense to me, I think that I'll first go and finish the TAS first without trying to skip it. And then, after I submit the thing, then go back to square 1 with the Gauntlet, trying to skip it. Even though we know it's possible with locks and everything, right now, we don't even know for sure about how it works, because without locks, we've not been able to do it. In the chance that we do skip it, then I'll either re-do the entire thing, or use TAS Movie Editor to fix it. The reason for this, isn't laziness, but to severely save time on the project in general, and to keep myself going with this. Now about the RAM glitch thing. I'll try random things, but like I said, I have basically no clue how it works. For example, in the crash bandicoot 2 glitched TAS, they jump on the unbreakable box, to mess with the ram, well in MediEvil, aside from possibly using the replenish glitch, I don't know of anything else we could do. But I'mma head off to try it, 94 minutes remaining on the upload at the moment, I'll edit this when it's uploaded. Video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rRpBhW0Pvg
Joined: 4/29/2005
Posts: 1212
This WIP is looking awesome. :3
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
@pumpik gorge: Exactly. @WIP: You really should start using the instant turn around trick some more instead of curving around. It's a bit wierd since you did the trick after picking up the red rune in the graveyard, but didn't use it on numerous other occasions (eg. picking up the small sword and rune at the crypt, using the green rune at the graveyard, getting the club and talisman at cemetery hill, green rune at the mausoleum). At some of these you could also pull off a kbd since you're already facing a wall. At the crypt after grabbing the rune, isn't it possible to jump above the book on your way to the gate? This would allow you to go for the bottle in a straight line. During the graveyard it would be better to push everything away with your sword instead of doing anything else. You also didn't use the tree trick I explained a couple posts back which saves a few seconds. At the start of cemetery hill you should change to dan's arm in order to get the club quicker. After getting it it's faster to get out of that general area through where the left boulder is, instead of the middle one. When approaching the campfire you should rather kill the zombie just before it and set your club on fire with the square button. You forgot to use the fence clip. When climbing the hill there's at least one occasion where you're running against the wall for a bit, which really slows you down. IIRC you can destroy the coffin at the start of the mausoleum so that Dan won't stutter and you won't have to jump in order to fall straight down. Stop wasting the club! You won't have to replenish for the pumpkin serpent if you use it only where necessary. You can release charged up daggers way sooner, even before the charging effect disappears completely. If you actually avoid getting hit by the demon's shards (which doesn't cost any frames) you'll finish the fight at full health, which means you can skip the vial at the following level. After killing the demon it would also be rather nice for you to run for the key straight instead of a curve. At return to the graveyard you once more curved around the tombstone before the rune skip :(. At the boss fight, maybe try delaying your first club (jump) swing and wait for the wolf to come down to the ground first. IIRC it's possible to win with only 4 swings instead of 5 - the last hit should land just barely after the second wolf appears. Now for the big one: you're not running in straight, optimal lines. You're basically facing minutes-worth of lost time when it starts piling up towards the end of the run. You didn't really catch that when I mentioned this after your last WIP, so here's a crude picture that will hopefully explain it. Starting from just before using the red rune, the red line is basically what you did, the blue one represents what you should've done. Even disregarding the planning mistake towards the end of the level you still lose frames basically at every section possible. This applies to all the levels you showcased on the WIP, not just the graveyard, so you better improve your movement or, like I said before, it will pile up to a significant amount of lost time. Oh and I can think of at least 3 spots where a kbd could work and two that I'm certain it'll work (right at the start and after grabbing the red rune) - assuming it only works when facing a wall dead-on, otherwise you should use it constantly.
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
Fixing levels in WIP 1 then... WIP 2 (Scarecrow Fields - Pumpkin Serpent) will be ready by tomorrow night hopefully. WIP 3 (Sleeping Village - Asylum) for Sunday. WIP 4 (The Enchanted Earth - The Crystal Caves) Monday. WIP 5 (The Gallows Gauntlet - The Entrance Hall) on Tuesday. And finally WIP 6 (The Time Device and Zarok's lair) on Wednesday. Mild edits on everything here and there. but getting it done within the week since it's going to snow, so I won't have to worry about anything other than this. Just to reply to you: - The turn around jump trick thing is good, it saves frames every time it's used so far (not sure if everywhere). - It is, but it is slower than slightly curving around it by 4 frames. - I think it looks cooler to simply be like "Ninja Dan" instead of swordsman Dan in the TAS, because in a real playthrough of the game you pretty much constantly bash the X button using the sword, especially the magic one, more than most other items... Where as in the TAS, it's just like "Oh yes, Really, I jumped over you, like a ninja" ... It is the same speed, so it don't really matter, I just find it funnier this way. - Will change to Dan's arm. - I didn't forget the fence clip, but had a hard time setting it off to be faster than just walking around, but I'll fix it if it is faster. - I'll be sure to do straight lines like that, I thought when you said straight lines you meant as in no struttering (^>, ^, ^>, ^ for example)... Perhaps just a case of confusion there... As struttering is pretty much faster than turning the camera/ going straight, if you have to turn. - About the boss battle, like I said before, ignore it, it was only in there because it had to be there. In the real thing, it'll be something you can awe at. For the daggers, I go frame by frame finding the exact frame to release them/start charging up again. Partly that, is why that this boss is taking so long to optimize. - Kbd is nice but still if the time it takes to use it is less than what it would get you to without using it, we shouldn't use it... I'll find some spots to use it if it saves time. Everything else, will just be updated after I've had time to go through everything, there won't be another WIP 1 uploaded, but I will upload the boss so you know how I really will do the boss. I'll use 4 swings for the return to the graveyard boss. I may make this a speed/entertainment trade off movie to cut down on the excessive amounts of optimization in the run... But I doubt that highly.
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