Posted: 1/16/2006 9:43 AM
Post subject: Shadowrun
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Raziel
Joined: 3/30/2005
Posts: 5
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Well, I haven't posted here in a very long time, but I guess it's time I finally become active around here. Anyway, I've been thinking about doing a TAS run of some random Genesis game lately, and I wasn't able to find anything that wasn't already near complete. That was until I realised no one worked on Shadowrun yet. So I decided I'll take it up. I'm not sure how I'm going to do this exactly. So far, I've replayed through the game once (it's really, really short once you know where to go, less than 3 hours long), and I'm pretty sure the best path to take would be Mako Sochou's path as a Samurai runner. There's no fighting in the Matrix with this path, so I can ignore my Decker skills and getting Decker runners, and it's fairly fast, although it can be a bit difficult to take down the Renkaku strike teams Here's what I came up with so far as a path, using the Samurai archetype:
  • Go to the Ares Weapons Emporium, sell my handgun. I should have around 195¥ now.
  • Hire Ricky and go back to the Ares Weapons Emporium, sell his gear and buy a Predator Handgun for Joshua. The Predator is the most powerful weapon in the game, having it is practically mandatory. I should now have around 215¥ left.
  • Go meet Gunderson, do a run that is worth at least 35¥ to ensure I have the 250¥ required to get Michael's stuff.
  • Get Michael's stuff, I now have 500¥.
  • Go meet Tabatha, I should be down by 40¥ now.
  • Go back to Redmond Barrens and do two runs for Gunderson so I get the 500¥ needed back.
  • Meet Boris, trigger the ambush event, let myself die so I respawn in Penumbra District. The loss of money from this is negligable, I'm almost broke anyway.
  • Do runs for Mortimer until I have enough money to afford an Armor Jacket and Phantom. This will also give me Karma I can spend on my attack and defense ratings.
  • Go to the Penumbra Club and fight Mako and his guards. With Phantom at my side, this should be easy enough.
So far, everything is fairly quick. Luck manipulation is minimal, mostly used to get the shortest route for runs and not getting killed as soon as Renrakus spawn. The longest part of this is to get the required money to hire Phantom and get the Armor Jacket, which amounts about to 1,650¥, which is around 9 to 10 Runs from Mortimer. This would give me a total of 12 or 13 Karma points to give out before starting the first real mission. Anyway, I think I'll keep on planning for a bit and see how much luck is needed to finish the game with minimum stats. Renraku teams will be most likely a bitch, even if I put my stance on pure Defense. I'll have to see how to get around to killing them as fast as possible. If anyone has any tips to give to make this any faster and easier, please do so. I'd really love to finish this run, but it's going to be really hard.
Posted: 1/16/2006 5:45 PM
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nifboy
Former player
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375
I can tell you that manipulating luck is a *bitch* in this game; I think you have to manipulate it like three areas back. As such, trying to manipulate your way through Renraku is *also* going to be a pain, and in all likelyhood things will not go well in *any* low-level corp run. I don't know how much battles can be manipulated, though.
Posted: 5/1/2006 3:42 PM
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sp0n
Joined: 12/7/2004
Posts: 13
Any progress? I never beat this game so I was wondering what you need Phantom for. Is it for his crappy decker skills or just a gun/meatshield? Would it possibly be quicker to get Stark instead? All it involves is running to the Salish-Shidhe lodge + 1 corp run for the cybernetic heart rather than however many it takes to get enough money for Phantom. Plus he's one of the best Samurai (comes fully equipped) in the game and will probably help you drop enemies and do corp runs faster. It may pay to get him ASAP since he never leaves and will ease combat throughout the game Would it be possible to manipulate getting tons of cash from terminals with a crappy/cheap decker or getting a datajack yourself? Have you figured out the Reputation stat checks that you need to meet? I can't remember if you can just waltz into the black market shops in this game. If you can the prices are always cheaper there than at legit stores.
Posted: 2/27/2007 3:43 AM
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nifboy
Former player
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375
In case anyone ever wants to even try, here's what I've gathered about the game so far: Randomness is semi-deterministic; in order to generate a new random outcome, the one "in queue" has to be used. Things that generate new randoms: Random encounters are rolled for every ~15 seconds of play, even if random encounters can never happen (i.e. inside a bar). Firing a gun (regardless) casting a spell (regardless of success or target), using a medkit changing areas Equivalent NPC actions Skill checks, such as asking a Johnson for a job (result varies by character) Things that do NOT generate new randoms: grenades out of battle swinging a fist at air pausing Random notes: The value of a given datafile is determined when you find it. It can be manipulated by going into the menu and back out (sometimes it generates an alert). This basically means that, unless there's a magic-user in the party a lot of ammo is going towards the "luck-manipulation" fund. Fast cash means grabbing Phantom, a nearby easily-accessed datastore (preferably one with no barriers/blackice in the way), raiding it only for good stuff, rinsing and repeating. If you're good about planning you can get by solely with upgrading Sleaze and/or Deception. Depending on how much money you want to sink making the manipulation go faster, max out Masking as well. Fast Karma means luck-manipulating a ton of Gunderson Jump House <-> Jackal's Lantern runs.
Posted: 11/16/2010 4:56 AM
Post subject: Shadowrun - Another startup
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neogiegue
Joined: 11/16/2010
Posts: 7
I know that a couple years ago, someone started up a Shadowrun TAS for the Genesis, found how much of a pain the RNG is, and then abandoned it without much fanfare. I decided to start messing around with TAS tools by picking this game, before searching here to see if anyone had any comments on it. After getting a feel for the game, I found that thread. I took the comments on the RNG, some of which I'd already deduced on my own, and started planning. I can see that the original attempt went with a samurai character, thinking that skipping the matrix scenes would save time. I am playing as a decker, and plan on using the matrix to gear myself up far quicker. While my combat stats are a little lower at first, I buy the arguably best gun in the game about 4 minutes in, and the best armor until the end game around 8. The other difference is that I'll be able to get wired up much quicker by matrix runs than anything physical. While a starter matrix run earns about $500, manipulating the RNG to get data files that can be sold off to a data fence makes me about $4,000 on my second run. At the high end, a matrix run is worth about $6,000 and data files can be worth at least as much. This money will be used to buy the best cyberware and gear available, at which point I should have earned enough karma from runs to boost up my physical stats a bit, and combat shouldn't be an issue while I progress through the plot. Before I get too far, I'm not totally certain that Shadowrun will actually be entertaining for a full video. I know it's marked as likely to be interesting, but combat is kind of wonky and anything resembling a plot blows past. There's also a lot of places where the game doesn't respond to input between scenes and surprisingly long load times for a cartridge. Here's a link to what I've roughly gotten done so far, about 12 minutes of gametime. It's pretty sloppy, and I clearly forgot I was recording around the 34,000 frame mark for 2,000 frames. I'll have to redo that if initial feedback is positive. If there's any interest tomorrow, I may post up the information I've worked out so far. It's not a lot different than what was already known, but I'll post it regardless.
Posted: 11/23/2010 8:32 PM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Arcade TAS of 2023 Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021
Hey! I think it's one of those game that you have to have played to enjoy watching. To me it looks like just running around and getting through some dialog boxes most of the time. I suppose there is a lot of strategy behind it. How long do you expect a run to be? In any case, post what information you have on the game, it's such a waste if it gets lost.
Posted: 11/24/2010 2:11 AM
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neogiegue
Joined: 11/16/2010
Posts: 7
Here's what I've figured out so far, besides what was posted by nifboy: * See the earlier notes for luck manipulation. To be added to the list of things that changes the next random event is 'walking into a computer terminal'. * Randomness in Matrix combat is determined frame-by-frame. This does not make combat completely trivial, as you do apparently still need to have some stats to justify the success. For example, I could not use lv2 Deception on lv5 ICE. Once I upgraded to lv3 Deception, I could get through lv5 ICE. * There is one particular system that gives access to a Lv5 Orange DS node, which is particularly good for raiding for cash. I had this last time I played, but I noticed too late that I had forgot to resume recording. * Movement is a little loose. The game gives you a lot of wiggle room for contact, and pushes you very easily toward where you should go. You also have to go the opposite direction to turn in tight circles. You can see this in a couple spots in the video, where I want to go down and have to start by going up, turning to a side, then go down. This can only really be negated if you're in a corner, in which case you can flip around without the small half-circle. * I also do some messing around with the collision in the video you see, to see if it affects speed at all. I don't see any obvious benefit from anything collision-wise. * Moving diagonally seems to result in a higher overall speed, though I haven't gotten numbers to compare to moving in straight lines, and you can sort of see this in combat. Note that in combat your character's speed drops as well. * There are a lot of lag frames. Each panel of dialog has at least 10 lag frames, and the last one of a sequence is significantly more. There's also a few lag frames when you load into a new area each time. Attacking, especially the first shot in combat, can take up to 45 frames between pushing A and a shot being fired. This seems to be related to the targeting code. * A full game of Shadowrun, without tool-assist, takes 3-5 hours once you know what you're doing. The length of a TAS is mostly going to be related to how much matrix grinding for cash needs to be done to complete the game. In the video linked above, I get the best gun in the game for everything but raw damage output and the best armor that doesn't require any questing in less than 12 minutes. * My idea on an optimal path is this: [Edited 11/27/10 - Faster initial path] 1: Be a decker.- Mostly arbitrary. I like deckers. 2: Sell gun and armor to start. Hire Ricky with the money, sell Ricky's gear. Buy Predator pistol. 3: Spend $250 on initial plot event, end at $690. 4: Plot starts. 4a: do plot event in Pullyaup. You have to do this first to trigger the one in the starting area. Get killed outside of the greenhouse, it's faster than fighting and winning doesn't change the plot. Wake up with $97, enough for taxis between areas. 4b: Do simple matrix runs (2 or 3) for Mortimer. At some point, ask Mortimer about the plot bit he has. 4c: Use the money from Mortimer to upgrade your cyberdeck, then try to manipulate out an easier advanced matrix run from Vigor + Jarl. There should be a couple orange datastores you can get into with the starting programs, and you can start getting $2k+ from data files if you're lucky that way. 4d: Finish buying up stuff from the list of things to buy: [unordered] * Buy Predator at Ares in starting area: $645 [Fastest, not cheapest] * Buy Armor Jacket at Crime Mall - $900 * Buy SmartLink from WireMasters - $1500 * Buy Dermal Plating from Seattle General Hospital - $2800 x 3 * Buy Wired Reflexes from WireMasters - $20k per level x 2 * Buy Smartgun accessory from Weapon World - $600 * Buy Silencer accessory from Crime Mall - $400 * Buy at least 5 storage boosts for the cyberdeck - $500 * Buy at least 2 memory boosts for the cyberdeck - $1000 As necessary to accelerate the process of getting money for the above upgrades: * Buy Attack upgrades - $? * Buy Deception upgrades - $? * Buy a stronger cyberdeck - $? [I don't know what the required minimums are. As best I can tell, your version of the program needs to be at most 2 levels weaker than the IC to have an effect on it at all (EX: you need Attack-3 to hit a lv5 ICE)] 5: Resume plots. Total costs to get the (suspected) ideal cyberwear and initial gear: $51,645. If you want to start progressing through without Wired Reflexes, which I'm pretty sure you won't need until after finishing a plot thread or two, you only need $11,645 spent on gear and cyberwear. I assume that the faster you can get this amount, the faster you can handle combat for most of the initial game. You'll have to spend Karma eventually, but this should handle your needs for quite a while. Expected Cyberwear setup: Wired Reflexes 2 - $40,000, 3 Essence (The cost of lv2 is 1 more, instead of 2 more. It's a helpful bug) Smartlink - $1500, .5 Essence Dermal Plating 3 - $5400, 1.5 Essence Cybereyes - $1800 on Council Island, .2 Essence. Totals - 5.2 Essence used, $48,600 total spent. Over 80% of that is Wired Reflexes, which can probably wait a while. Muscle Replacement: Boosts Strength and Quickness. I'm ignoring Strength this run, so I'll save time by not purchasing this. Speaking of stats, my notes on them: -Strength: pointless outside of melee, ignore -Body: Main defense stat. Will be important. Dermal Plate is relatively fast 3 point boost. -Quickness: Main offense (overall) stat. Going to help a lot, but Wired Reflexes is expensive. -Intelligence: Affects combat and cybercombat successes. Important. -Willpower: Affects magic and combat successes. Not likely to be as important. I haven't saved any progress since the above video. [Again, I played more, but didn't record it]. I may start the run over and see if I can clean up some of the sloppiness and collision testing I did. [EDIT 11/27] More data, primarily on planning, added. I restarted my run, cut the time it takes to do the goals in the initial movie from 12 to 6 minutes, and then realize it's desynced. This is frustrating. If someone else wants to take this info and try something with it, please do so.
Posted: 1/12/2011 1:06 AM
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neogiegue
Joined: 11/16/2010
Posts: 7
I apologize for double-posting, but I've started a new run and made progress faster this time. To be honest, this is the result of some research that should have been done before actually attempting a run. Here are the new notes and plans. 1a: REVISED - Samurai. Better starting stats for combat, will hire a decker that starts with stats and gear. [Need 1500 to hire Rhianna, including cab fare] Deckers have 2/5/2/2 4/3/5.8/0, firearms 2 comp.3 Samurai have 4/3/4/1 2/4/5.9/0, firearms 4. You can hire a decker with INT6/Comp.6, which saves about 20 karma from leveling it on Joshua. Programs determine your probability of success and upper cap on what you can do, stats determine speed and likelihood of finding something useful in data stores. Samurai are slower but otherwise better in combat, which is most of the plot. New/Revised costs: * Buy Attack upgrades - $11340 [lv5 needed to get through any IC with luck manipulation] * Buy Deception upgrades - $12960 [lv5 needed to get through any IC] * Extra Memory Upgrades requires to run 2 programs @ lv5 - $3500 * Extra Storage Upgrades - Initial deck caps at 250 - $100 per 25 - $600ish Frame Counts: Lag frames between conversation frames: 12 Lag frames when changing zones: 118 [4 second load times on a cartridge!] Lag frames in a building's intro text: 30 Lag frames when entering the pause menu: 30 I need to make scripts to count these for me. Revised Bullet points: * Intro. Be a Samurai. * Sell Gear. * Get Michael's Stuff. * Hire Ricky. Trade clips to Joshua. Sell Ricky's stuff. Dismiss Ricky. * Go to Penumbra District. Hire Marrs. Trade Clips to Joshua. Sell Marrs' stuff, especially that $700 shotgun. Dismiss Marrs. * Go to Downtown Seattle. Pay $150 to enter Matchstick. Hire Rhianna, the best decker NPC in the game, for $1330 about 2 minutes into the game. Go milk the Matrix for cash. ** First run: $4,000. It costs us about $2k total to hire Rhianna, so she's paid for herself and then some already. ** I buy Deception 3 and all the memory my deck can hold, then go back and do some more hacking. ** Second run: I get a good random system (#6), it's the one I milked in my first attempt, but I've got better stats this time. $9200 from 4 files. I have $11,190 including the money I didn't spend from last time. Note that this hack would be practically impossible on a standard run, due to the low chance of actually successfully attacking. at 8:03 into the game, I have enough money to buy all the cyberware I want that isn't Wired Reflexes, plus the best armor before doing anything else. I can also get about another $1,000 by selling Rhianna's stuff. I'm also considering upgrading the decker gear slightly more, to make future hack attempts easier, but that won't likely help our overall speed too much, since it's just a matter of checking each frame when hacking (I really wish I could find the RNG's output in RAM Watch. Haven't found it yet.) I've uploaded the move here, if you want to watch it in Gens. A Youtube version will be up once Youtube wants to cooperate again. is viewable here EDIT: Went back and started looking into the plot side of things, as well as refining out the finances. It looks like 70-80k nuyen might be enough to clear the game, assuming you hire someone to hack locked doors, though my playaround testing cost me closer to $130k due to many deaths hunting hellhounds, hiring a runner for life. Most of the plot is doable with the equipment I expected, though I did have to upgrade to the $10k armor. You also have to spend 18 Karma to get your Reputation up to 4 in order to do the second plot thread. This will costs you all of the karma from the first plot thread, and some of the karma earned from the third.
Posted: 3/4/2011 3:26 AM
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neogiegue
Joined: 11/16/2010
Posts: 7
Actual content update! I ran a second test video, this time to show the actual plot. This completes the first of 3 plots (David Owlfeather) in 62,000 frames using the debug code for money. This isn't a serious TAS attempt, just a demonstration of how a full movie would look after the 20-30 minutes of hacking the matrix for cash you saw in the first 2 videos. On top of being way easier to watch than the first two, this video happens to feature a bit more luck manipulation (A couple of stray shots are fired off to avoid unwinnable random encounters), a couple of new behaviors that needed documented. New notes: * Reloading by pushing A when your gun is empty does NOT cycle the RNG. * Guards in corp buildings have a wide range of view, but they only appear to check every 20 frames. They're also deaf, and won't hear the cyborg in combat armor running behind them (or even in front of them a few pixels, if you get back behind them before that 20 frame mark) * I mention choosing the pistol in earlier notes. In this video, I take the best shotgun option to provide some variety. My analysis: the shotgun is pretty badass, and it might be the weapon of choice in TAS attempts. * I also mention taking the best armor for $900. In this video, I'm wearing the Light Combar Armor for $10,000. In one recording, I stood still in the Renraku fight outside the dragon and never took damage. Since $10,000 can be earned in one matrix run, it's probably worth the time. On that note, the only thing fought in this video that poses a thread are the hell hound packs. With those out of the way, there's nothing very challenging until the Renraku run, so upgrading physical stats probably isn't very useful for this TAS. * Friendly fire is on, in case you weren't aware. You can see around frame 52,000 where one Renraku guard ends up killing his friend. I don't know if this provides the player with Karma. * Hell hounds are only supposed to show up in the wilderness and caves. Despite this, I kill 3 of them in downtown Seattle. I also manipulate my way out of about 4 hell hound ambushes (They jumped me on a visit to the Salish-Shide before making it to the city in one case). Link to video Link to video