Post by Felipe

Posted: 7/20/2010 7:54 PM

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N._Harmonik

She/Her

Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada

Can somebody please tell me what the point of rapid firing at the title screen is?

Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?

Posted: 7/20/2010 9:11 PM

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Noob_Irdoh

Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 570
Location: 33°07'41"S, 160°42'04"W

N. Harmonik wrote:

Can somebody please tell me what the point of rapid firing at the title screen is?

Unless it is done to manipulate the RNG, I think it has no purpose. You can't press start any sooner than that frame anyway, so the author doesn't feel like waiting standing still, there is nothing wrong with that. Even the guidelines say to do something unexpected when you can't do anything else, if I remember correctly. If that bothers you so much, feel free to vote no, because a sound that lasts for 0.5 seconds annoys you enough to hate a run which is awesome for like 30 minutes. This is sarcasm.

Posted: 7/20/2010 9:19 PM

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marzojr

He/Him

Experienced player (761)

Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France

Noob Irdoh is correct: it serves no real purpose other than doing something during the wait period before the start button is pressed.

Marzo Junior

Posted: 7/21/2010 7:20 PM

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marzojr

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Experienced player (761)

Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France

New WIP up to Sandopolis 2. Featuring a new shortcut (which is an improvement to the 100% run), a slight improvement in precision before the shortcut and gaining 1 frame in the boss fight, for a total improvement of 7 seconds 3 frames over the previous WIP. Final Sandopolis 2 time: 0:48::52.

Marzo Junior

Posted: 7/24/2010 2:28 AM

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marzojr

He/Him

Experienced player (761)

Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France

~~I have a new WIP until the end of ~~Sandopolis~~Hidden Palace; when Microstorage's database is back up, I will post it here. Meanwhile, here are the differences:~~ Edit: Here is the new WIP. Hydrocity 2: I manipulated Tails to show up at the start of the boss fight. The result: final time of ~~0:26::33, or 1 second 50 frames~~0:26::07, or 2 seconds 16 frames improvement from the any% run. The TAS is now back to being faster in this level :-) This improvement can also be done in the any% run. Marble Garden 2: Had to resynch the boss fight, which desynched due to luck issues. Carnival Night 2: Also desynched: baloons were in the wrong locations. Upon resynch, time went down to 0:40::24, an improvement of 14 frames. Mushroom Hill 2: Also deynched. Resynching led to 1 second 55 frames of improvement, for a final time of 0:31::31. Edit: Lava Reef 1: With a few frames gained from better precision, quite a bit more from a better path near the big ring, and the help of Tails at the start and at the boss, the final level time is ~~0:52::59~~0:52::41, which means a total of 4 seconds 1533 frames of savings from the 100% run. Lava Reef 2: Slightly different subpixel position and an extra rev in the last spindash mean a final time of 0:21::42 when the timer stops, a 2 frame improvement from the any% run. Hidden Palace: Basically identical to the any% run. The emeralds caused a desynch versus Robotnik, and I had to resynch from then on; the extra hit on Robotnik was necessary to get Tails in the right position.

Marzo Junior

Posted: 7/26/2010 2:01 AM

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marzojr

He/Him

Experienced player (761)

Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France

New WIP up to Hidden Palace, improving Mushroom Hill 2 by 41 frames to a final time of 0:30::50.

Marzo Junior

Posted: 7/27/2010 4:23 AM

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marzojr

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Experienced player (761)

Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France

Oh, joy! I just spent the whole day with an idea on how to further improve Hydrocity 2 and now that I was finally able to try, it paid off! I managed to reduce Hydrocity 2 by a further 43 frames, down to 0:25::24. The WIP desynchs due to luck differences at the Marble Garden 2 boss; I will be correcting this (and any other desynchs) and post the video tomorrow (I still have to test several variations of the boss fight to make sure this is the fastest -- it seems to me that it might be possible to squeeze an extra frame or 2). With that, I now have the following improvements to the any% run:

Level                           Improvement
Hidrocity 2 death               11
Hidrovity 2                     179
Marble Garden 2                 18
Launch Base 2 final cutscene    10
Flying Battery 1                726
Flying Battery 2                207
Lava Reef 2                     2

That is a whooping 1153 frames of improvement -- 19 seconds and 13 frames. I smell another revision on the way... Now, the issue is whether I wait until the New game+ version is finished to submit them together or whether I submit it now, before the New game+.

Marzo Junior

Posted: 7/28/2010 2:38 AM
(Edited: 8/7/2010 2:47 AM)

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marzojr

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Experienced player (761)

Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France

Here is the WIP I promised in the previous post. The change in Hydrocity led to desynchs in Marble Garden 2 and Carnival Night 2 due to luck (I hate those balloons) and in Mushroom Hill 2 due to differences in lag (some 5 frames less lag in the new version, in fact). It is all resynched -- Mushroom Hill 2 was the easiest.

Marzo Junior

Posted: 7/28/2010 3:01 AM

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Sonikkustar

Skilled player (1326)

Joined: 9/7/2007
Posts: 1354
Location: U.S.

19 minutes & 13 frames! Thats makes Sonic 3 & Knuckles almost sub 32:00!!! Also, What happened to Sandopolis 2 exactly? It just went too fast There is one thing though. At the end of Flying Battery 2, You can be at the bottom right next to the capsule and still jump for the acceleration. I think this saves about 4 frames from the any%.

Homepage SVN

Posted: 7/28/2010 3:50 AM

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marzojr

He/Him

Experienced player (761)

Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France

Sandopolis 2 starts with a glitch courtesy of Tails -- after being brought flying into the handle and moving away, Sonic starts to accumulate vertical speed down; this can go on almost without limit. Once the handle is far enough off-screen to be unloaded, Sonic will fall at the current speed; in the run, I accumulate enough speed to get past the floor and almost all the way down the sand waterfall before letting go. Since the level wraps vertically, I then glitch into Knuckles' route -- normally, only he can get there, and there are walls only Knuckles can break, one of which is in my way. I spindash (full rev) from far enough that I can bypass it by moving it offscreen with a 1-rev spindash, grab the giant ring and turn hyper. During the screen flash from the first hyperlaunch, I glitch into the conveniently placed ledge and into a zip. Inside the wall, I use a jump and a hyperlaunch down do go down one level in the wall so I can get off in a better position. Sonic then appears onscreen again, jumping diagonally, to hyperlaunch diagonally down, skipping past an annoying ledge and stopping in front of the sand slide. The route then meets again the one from the 100% run, where I stay until I meet the next robo-scorpion; there, I glitch inside the floor using the sloped terrain and fall (inside the wall) into one of those moving crushers. I use it to spindash to a suitable area and hyperlaunch down into another zip, coming next to a lever. I need to push the lever slightly -- just enough that I can squeeze below the door and hyperlaunch into the ground again, and into another zip. I come out from the ground near an (offscreen) robo-scorpion and a pushable moving rock, but I quickly go to another lever and open the door enough to squeeze below it with a spindash. After the moving spiked crusher, the route meets again with the 100% route and continues along it, only it is more optimized.

Marzo Junior

Posted: 7/30/2010 11:31 PM

Post subject: Sonic 3: Racing minigame!

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LSK

Joined: 4/17/2006
Posts: 159

I play through the "hidden" "multiplayer" "racing" "minigame" in Sonic 3. Terribly unoptimized, so consider this a proof of concept. Or a work-in-progress. Whatever. Times: Course A - 26"23 Course B - 27"12 Course C - 38"35 Course D - 29"24 Course E - 46"32 Total - 2'47"25 * Aims for fastest in-game time * Races on five tracks in Grand Prix mode * Makes mistakes * Doesn't even bother to manipulate luck * Basically just consists of holding right, but looks impressive * Could pass for Sonic Spinball on a slow day * Colors a dinosaur Microstorage seems to be down, and I can't get an AVI below 1.3 GB to put on Youtube, but here's the video file: http://sites.google.com/site/asherstuhlman/SONICTHREETHEHEDGHONKRACING.gmv?attredirects=0&d=1

Posted: 7/31/2010 6:52 AM

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Mr._Pwnage

Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223

http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7734 And even that got grue'd.

Posted: 7/31/2010 10:50 PM

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marzojr

He/Him

Experienced player (761)

Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France

That is... odd. I was updating the any% run with the new tricks when I noticed that the new game+ version of Hydrocity 1 could be improved a but; it turns out I managed to improve it by 18 frames, down to 0:32::26. The really odd part is: for whatever reason, the screen remained vertically locked after I killed the boss, and remained so after act 2 began. At that point, when Sonic went down the drain he reached the bottom of the screen and died. So instead of wasting 0:09::08 to die, I now spend 0:05::21, an improvement of 0:03::47. I have been utterly unable to reproduce this for the any% run, and I have no idea what has happened. The movie is here, up to the start of Hydrocity 2 (I will have to resynch Marble Garden 2 again, due to luck; and I am betting that Cassino Night 2 and Mushroom Hill 2 will also desynch... *sigh*). If anyone has any idea what happened there, I'd love to know...

Marzo Junior

Posted: 8/1/2010 12:15 AM

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upthorn

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Emulator Coder, Active player (391)

Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802

This GMV says it needs a savestate, and I haven't been following this thread terribly closely so I do not know what savestate, precisely, or where to get it.

How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.

Posted: 8/1/2010 12:31 AM

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marzojr

He/Him

Experienced player (761)

Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France

Ah, sorry; here it is. Edit: I have kept the new game+ state-anchored movie to show the glitch because I don't know how to reproduce it yet. So far, that is the only movie I have been able to do it in.

Marzo Junior

Posted: 8/1/2010 7:45 PM

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marzojr

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Experienced player (761)

Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France

Barring me (or upthorn, or someone else) determining how the HC1-2 transition death glitch I stumbled on works, this will be the version I submit for the any% run. The changes from the published run: Hidrocity 1: Improved boss fight to gain 16 frames. Hidrocity 2: death sequence improved by 10 frames down to 0:09::09. No matter what I did, I simply could not reduce that 1 last frame -- even getting the position right down to the subpixel level and feeding the same input results in 1 frame lost. Sonic even dies at the same timer value, but the timer goes for 1 extra frame... There is also the off-screen manipulation of Tails for a vastly improved boss fight, leading to 179 frames of improvement. Marble Garden 1: Removed the luck-manipulation pauses at the start. Also, better offscreen manipulation of Tails leads to a better boss fight, with 22 frames of improvement. Marble Garden 2: Improved the entrance into the wall and the better boss configuration gives an improvement of 17 frames. There is a boss configuration that allows an extra frame of in-game time, but it takes too long to manipulate it. Launch Base 1: Better boss fight yields 38 frames of improvement. Edit: I forgot: I delay the death after the boss fight by 2 frames in order to manipulate the first flamethrower Sonic encounters in act 2. If I didn't, Sonic would be hurt by it and lose quite a bit of time. Launch Base 2: the cutscene has been improved by 8 frames. No matter what I did, I could not get it to reduce the extra 2 frames I got for the new game+ run. Flying Battery 1: New route from the new game+ run gives 726 frames of improvement. I crosses a time boundary, and ended up losing 400 frames in real time due to the score tally. Flying Battery 2: New route from the new game+ run gives 207 frames of improvement. Sandopolis 2: Removed all luck manipulation pauses at the end. Lava Reef 1: Replayed mini-boss battle which desynched. Lava Reef 2: Replayed due to aforementioned desynch. More precision at the very end give 3 frames of improvement. Sky Sanctuary: Replayed boss battle, which had desynched. There are 20 frames worth of pauses at the end to get the Death Egg 1 boss to synch. It may be possible to remove some of these frames if said boss is replayed, but most of the early frames involve a highly unfavorable behavior of his platforms. Total: 1208 frames (20 seconds, 8 frames) shaved from the published run in in-game time, 832 frames (13 seconds, 52 frames) shaved in real time. If you do the math, you will see that the removed pauses and differences in lag compensated 6 of the 400 frames lost in the Flying Battery 1 score tally.

Marzo Junior

Posted: 8/1/2010 11:13 PM

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Paused

Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752

For what little its worth, your nuts. Cant wait to see your final runs. At your rate they will be an intresting 60 seconds.

Posted: 8/2/2010 1:20 AM

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marzojr

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Experienced player (761)

Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France

After some investigation, it seems related to the starpost or the region of the level before and up it -- if I stop long enough there for the camera to catch up with Sonic still there, I can't do the glitch. If I stop dead at x = 12762 (jump, release jump, hyper launch down) and wait for the camera to catch up, I can always do the glitch; If I stop dead at x = 13745 and wait for the camera, I can't. If I stop dead at x = 13745 but hyper launch forward before the camera catches up (even delaying the hyper launch a couple of frames or so), I can do the glitch. I still haven't been able to reproduce it as regular Sonic, though.

Marzo Junior

Posted: 8/4/2010 12:38 AM

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HHS

Active player (286)

Joined: 10/8/2006
Posts: 356

I have found out what causes the glitch. Many of the game's objects remove themselves when they are far from the screen. One of the objects that do this is the one responsible for handling running on water (function $383BC). This object's X coordinate follows the first player. It is placed at the fixed address $FFB172 when starting any of the Hydrocity stages. At the end of Hydrocity 1, it is again placed at $FFB172. Normally, this just overwrites the walking on water object from Hydrocity 1 with a fresh one. To figure out whether to remove an object, the game checks the X coordinate against the left edge of the screen, in 128 pixel increments. If the object's X & $FF80 is 640 or more pixels to the right of the left edge & 0xFF80, or 256 or more pixels to the left, the object is removed. At frame 12276, you have zipped through the wall so that you are at X coordinate $210A, while the left edge of the screen is at $1EFA. Notice that your X coordinate, anded with $FF80, minus the value at $FFF7DA now equals $30A. When it is $300 or more, the water running handler disappears. The slot is free, and the object that replaces it is the boss. When the boss is defeated, the very last thing it does is to set up a smooth movement of the edges to the next level's settings. However, before it gets the chance, the next act loads, and the walking on water object is again loaded to $FFB172. So, the edges aren't set. If you turn around, dust will appear under Sonic's shoes, taking up a slot so that the loop above the boss room gets the water running handler's slot, and the boss gets another slot, and it won't work.

Posted: 8/4/2010 2:41 AM

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marzojr

He/Him

Experienced player (761)

Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France

If I understood it correctly, this also explains why hitting the lamppost causes the glitch to fail -- since I have enough rings, the lamppost creates a new sprite (the special stage stars) which takes the location the walk on water object (remember, Hyper Sonic can stop or turn aronud without creating dust by using the hyper launch ability); then the boss takes a different slot, and the stars (which are probably deleted by then anyway) will give way to the new water walking object. Man, that was one hell of a coincidence :-) Anyway, thanks for the work! I now know for sure it is highly unlikely to make it work for Sonic.

Marzo Junior

Posted: 8/4/2010 10:11 PM

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Felipe

Banned User

Joined: 12/14/2009
Posts: 386
Location: Santiago, Chile

Check this out. It is a movie of sonic3k (competition).

Posted: 8/4/2010 11:12 PM

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NitroGenesis

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Editor, Experienced player (556)

Joined: 12/24/2009
Posts: 1873

cool! Nice job, felipe! i like the competetion levels.

YoungJ1997lol wrote:

Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.

Posted: 8/5/2010 10:07 PM

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Felipe

Banned User

Joined: 12/14/2009
Posts: 386
Location: Santiago, Chile

I had thought encode for publication on Youtube.

Posted: 8/7/2010 2:28 AM

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GGG

Banned User

Joined: 12/11/2009
Posts: 57
Location: USA

New WIP . He made a movie with knuckles not collect emeralds

AngelIsland 1: 0:42.48 
AngelIsland 2: 0:33.52

Enjoy

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