Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
An update for my many fans: I've finished the Sea Shrine, with things coming together very well. I'm right around 2 minutes faster than my test. I have a pretty good idea how the rest of this will look and I'd say my 1:14:00 guess is still about right.
Great run,
I notice you hardly step out of the minimal path to complete the game. That made me wonder that if random battles were eliminated, would the run be under an hour?
total_frames - ( average_frames_per_battle * number_of_battles) < 1 hour
If we could (somehow magically) eliminate all random battles, and determine the absolute minimum path (including no bane sword; though it is not feasible) to complete the game, then we would have an idea of the absolute lower bound of any speed run. That would be interesting at least.
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
If random encounters could magically be eliminated, this run would be well under an hour. In my run there are 184 random encounters compared to 200 for Mookish. Five of these are no-run fights I have to fight, and there's also the geist I smash to get the money for the silver sword. Mookish had nine no-run battles and opted to fight two battles early on for some reason. Anyway, even if you don't need to waste time manipulating the run, an encounter wastes about 6 seconds (that's with only one character alive, add 50 frames for each additional.) That goes up by about 4 seconds for each round of actual fighting (again with one character, longer for more.) So that's about 20 minutes right there. Eliminating the pacing would drop even more time. But due to the mechanics this is impossible, the encounter system is designed a little more robustly than Dragon Warrior.
So with some rough calculations, I'd say the absolute lower bound for a no-random combat run would be about 50 minutes, while a more realistic estimate is closer to 70 minutes.
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Ok, 1:13:00 was great, but I have a few ideas which will bring this down even more. For part of this I'm going to consult my cabinet of masterminds on this forum:
Where can I pick up healing items from treasure chests near the minimal path? Houses, cabins, tents and heal potions could all be useful if they are easily obtained. The shop menus are so clunky that I could save a few seconds by getting my healing items from chests, but only if I don't have to go too far out of the way. There are places where I need to take extra steps anyway, so I could use them to get to the chests.
I am considering changing items because I think I might be able to beat the Blue Dragon without taking damage, or maybe just one hit. I'll still need one tent/cabin/house to reset the encounter order. Even if I need more healing for him, it would be preferable to get all houses or maybe get one tent or cabin, then stop at the inn in Melmond. Another option is picking up extra gold in Ice Cave and buying only houses.
Another possible change is using heal potions instead of a house to give me the HP I need to beat the Zombie Dragons. I would use the heal potions in the same inventory trip as the Lute, saving time. Need to see exactly how much damage I can take there, since I could reduce it with luck manipulation or maybe even armor.
In general, Ice Cave is best because I need to take extra steps to avoid wizards. The treasure rooms in Earth Cave are so far off the path that I don't know if they're feasible. Gurgu is a possibility, as there are some treasure rooms close to the path. Also, this is really an all-or-nothing deal, if I can't easily pick up all the items I need, it will be faster to just buy them all at once in Gaia.
As far as items near the path, I am considering the following:
--The house in Marsh Cave, which Mookish picks up. At this early of a point I'll have to look hard to see how the steps will impact things.
--In the Dwarf Cave treasure room, there's a cabin and a house. If I grab these, then I would also likely get the Dragon Sword and forget about the Silver Sword. Walking through that treasure room would take some time, but it solves the weapon and item problems without adding steps toward encounters.
--There are two heal potions in Matoya's Cave, which also doesn't add encounter steps.
--There is a very convenient heal potion in Ice Cave, just one step off the path.
So are there any other suggestions?
Congratulations on the result so far. It's awesome.
If dragon sword is as good as silver sword for your purposes, then I strongly recommend grabbing the dwarf cave loot. It would save a small amount of time obtaining the silver sword anyways. It has four fewer damage points, but it should be easier to manipulate criticals due to a bug (although I doubt that could save you much time, but it might be helpful).
Do you have some idea how many heals you'd need to pick up to save one use of a cabin? Would 3 be sufficient? That ice cave one is a great candidate if having heals would save any time at all.
There's only the one Heal potion in the Ice cave, as far as I know. But there is also a tent right next to the Ice Sheild, just before the hole that takes you to the room with the forced undead fight.
The Gurgu volcano has a few heals and cabins, but they're all pretty out of the way. The closest object is a House on the floor before Kary's floor, roughly 30 steps (one way) out of the way in the right middle room. I am unsure if this will trigger a forced fight or not. There are 2 heals and 1 cabin in the big cluster of boxes on the 2nd floor, but there will more than likely be a forced fight or two along the way.
In the earth cave, there's a house roughly 16 steps (one way) off the path on the 2nd floor, in the top right corner. Also, there is a tent on floor 3 In the bottom right 16 steps (one way) off the path. The Heal pot on this floor is quite a ways off in the room right above that. 43 steps, roughly (again, one way). There's also a cabin on floor 4, but it's miles off the path as well.
Beyond that, it's up to Matoya and the Dwarf cave, as you said. The sea shrine is literally empty. There's a House & a Cabin in the mirage tower, but I think that's too late for what you're looking for. Hopefully, I didn't miscount the steps :P
edit: here we go. This'll be way more accurate than my awful descriptions:
http://collector.5gigs.com/ff1/maps/index.html
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Thanks Inzult, I have been looking for a treasure map like that. But you also pointed out most of what I would consider. After thinking a little more, I don't think heal potions are a good deal anymore, the extra inventory trip is pretty fast. I'll most likely go for the house in Earth Cave B3, getting rid of some of the pacing at the end of Earth Cave. Then I can get the tent that's right on the way in Ice Cave. Another treasure pickup that's not out of the question is the Coral Sword and the cabin right next to it. This is probably how I'll go if Short Sword doesn't cut it against Lich. I wouldn't get the house in that case, but it shouldn't be a problem.
Edit: Scouted Blue Dragon fight a little. It's definitely possible to kill the Blue D in 3 turns without getting hit. However, due to how the randomization works out with the extremely slim odds, it may be faster to heal and take some damage. If I take a hit at all I'm looking at about 140 damage, which means a house and something else if I go all items. It seems more likely that I'll use a cabin or tent for the power cycle, then visit the inn in Melmond. The inn takes about 6 seconds, which is actually less time than it takes me to buy three items. Full hp will greatly expand my options for the fight.
This is a minor help, but you could save a handful of frames by moving the Silver Sword down one space in Axe's inventory when you equip the Flame Sword. That way the Bane Sword will be in the first position when you get it, and it will be quicker to use on the 10 occasions that you do.
Not only will it save those few frames, but it may also make a few incidents of luck manipulation when using the Bane Sword happen slightly sooner.
I guess that probably sounds silly, seeing as you just cut off 17 minutes and I'm telling you how to save like 8 frames... but time saved is time saved.
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Thanks FreshFeeling, I had wondered whether or not that would help. It's never silly to suggest a few frames of improvement in a TAS so don't worry about it. Let's see, about 20 frames to do the move, so yeah, I think it does work out as an improvement. However, my next run won't get the silver sword and won't sell the short sword. If I go straight from short to flame, then I would probably do that move. But if I pick up coral or dragon then the bane sword would come in at the bottom of the list and I could move the cursor up one to use it. The menus work out so that it's just as fast to use the first item as it is to move one space and use an item.
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Hehe, I guess this has kinda slipped. However I have pretty detailed records written down for everything and the TAS process for this game is very automatic, so once I do start it will go fast. I'll have to hurry if I want to match this to the US release of FF XII. Lately I've catching up on some more recent PS and PS2 games.
Joined: 7/30/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Alefgard, USA
It seems that is has been many years since anyone has posted in this particular forum...
However, I've just completed something somewhat novel, and wanted to run it by this site - it is a FF1 NES solo white wizard run.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/62761378/FF_White_Wizard_Solo_dave_dfwm.fcm
This is what I would call a "Limited Assistance" run. It is more of a tutorial showing that you can actually win this game with a single white wizard, and having 3 dead characters with zero experience when you beat Chaos.
This is actually possible on a console if you have enough patience. The "Limited Assistance" part comes from the very small amount of re-records (1960 re-records in a 5.5 hour movie). Most of these were during the very first fight to make sure the thieves got killed quickly. A few others were to prevent unlucky critical hits and monsters strike first. Some were just because I went the wrong way in a cave or in town... oops.
There is no "crazy" manipulation, such as using the Bane sword on every single boss. Everything on here can indeed be done legitimately on a console.
I've also uploaded an 8-part series to Youtube, with text overlays to help explain my strategy. These videos involve some fast-forwarding, and some multiple simulataneous fight viewing to make it go faster.
http://www.youtube.com/user/davedfwm
Anyway, take a look. I think it's pretty entertaining and worthwhile, but I don't think a solo white wizard quest would be a good TAS idea.
Limited bane sword was a plus. Lots of surprises. Interesting strategies, too, with the undead grinding and whatnot.
Open question: are there any other runs worth doing now that the any% TAS and worst possible party have been done?
Joined: 7/30/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Alefgard, USA
Update:
I had temporarily removed part 2 (and now re-uploaded it). It had a grammar error that was bothering me, so I fixed it.
Yes, up to a point. The white wizard is definitely the hardest character to START with, at least. Getting past Astos is the biggest pain. After that, you just need some time to level with the mummies. Lucky for us, Lich is undead - otherwise, this quest would likely be almost impossible.
It's my opinion that in this challenge, the Zeus gauntlet is the most important item in the game, since it allows you to actually fight regular battles. You can get the item immediately after Lich.
[I was amused that the dead thie'es got promoted to ninjas.]
I think what I'm trying to say is, isn't BlM[/Wiz] going to ha'e a lot more trouble due to defense issues? RUSE and CUREs gi'e WhM a huge sur'i'ability bonus...
Accursed broken v key
For instance, KRAKEN- if WhM dies in one hit as you say, won't BlM do so too? And lack the dodge boost of a possible RUSE to get away with it? Or is it just ha'ing to somehow manipulate INKx4 (or howe'er many LITs it takes to win)?
edit: OH, does that Astos fight look tedious.
Joined: 7/30/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Alefgard, USA
Actually, now that I've inspected a bit more, I think the Defense Sword (found in the Mirage Tower) chants the spell of INVS or RUSE when used in battle. This item could be used for 3 of the 4 fiends. However, CUR3 and CUR4 would be greatly missed during battles. The WARP spell will make an imperfect substitute for EXIT.
Also, it is nice for the white mage that HARM attacks all enemies, whereas FIRE LIT ICE only hit one enemy. (the second and third level of these spells hits all enemies, though).
Slow as it is, if you can find a battle with enemies that only do damage with physical attacks, you can INVS with the Defense Sword and heal up with the Heal Helmet. Sure, 12-24 HP healing (IIRC) is slow, but it was invaluable in my solo Black Wizard run for saving up heal potions.
I'm not really here. Pressing Up+Down too many times glitched your graphics. And audio. Yeah.
Very nice! You're right about using the Defense sword (found in the Waterfall). It's equivalent to RUSE, which will be especially helpful in the final area, with potentially enough inescapable battles to otherwise use up all L1 charges before Chaos. Also, WALL isn't necessary in the final battle, since the Ribbon grants protection from everything. (Only XFER can negate that protection and it's not in Chaos' spell rotation)
Having completed almost all of the solo party configurations, I can say with confidence that the worst party belongs hands-down to a solo Thief with no class change. Mages, at least, have defensive or offensive magic to compensate for being otherwise relatively weak. BB starts off slow, but then becomes virtually unstoppable later on. Fighter, of course, has great offense and defense.
Thief, on the other hand, has the worst of all worlds.. no magic at all and weak weapons until the very end. The only thing he can bring to the table is high HP, in the form of over-leveling. Extremely so against Astos, which is needed to have time to hopefully deliver the 4 or so critical hits necessary to win. With non-TAS luck, that's typically Level 20+.
After that, it's mostly downhill, though Lich still isn't easy. The nice thing is that most enemies will run from the over-leveled Thief. :) Of course, the Zeus Gauntlets, et al (including the Defense Sword) are the great equalizers for the second half, though being stuck with the Dragon Sword or equivalent until end-game isn't very fun.
The final assault, however, even at L50, is hit-or-miss, considering the "gauntlet" (ahem) that must be run of fiends and tough, inescapable battles. With no escape magic, the Masmune, which is a must vs. Chaos, has to be collected on every attempt. For Chaos, run-enders are CRACK, SLO2, CUR4, and unlucky damage amounts both for and against. It's pretty much just 2 RUSEs via the sword and hoping for the best while he hacks away. :-p
As Ninja, things are exactly the same until class change. FAST will tip boss battles in his favor. Especially for Chaos, with the power of the Masmune and FAST's ability to counteract SLO2, should it hit.
Even after all that, it would be interesting to see how low TAS-levels of luck could take things.. perhaps less than an L50 finish. :)
Keep in mind, the chance for Astos' RUB (and pre-Floater Eye's) to be ineffective is pretty low to begin with. All of this is in degrees as far as how much TASing is involved, but on console this would typically take several tries.
If anyone has tried to convert and watch dave's solo movie under FCEUX, you may have noticed that it desyncs early on. It has nothing to do with inserting frames or anything like that. It has a save-state that FCEUX removes upon conversion, which contains a critical piece of information. However, there is a way to make it work, for anyone interested. Here's how:
* After the converted movie is started, it should be paused.
* Under the Debug menu, open up the Hex Editor.
* Scroll down to address 0x688A and click on it (refer to the window's title bar to make sure you're at the right address). Type 40, overwriting the old 00.
* Close the hex editor if you want.
* Resume the movie or save state first if you might want to watch it again.
This RAM address is the index to the battle engine's pseudo random-number table. If the movie had started with a fresh power-up of the system, this address would have been set to 00. This is the case for the current TAS of the game and why it will work properly when converted. In this particular case, the value happened to be 40 at the start of the movie. Because the converted movie starts at 00, the first battle (5 Imps, strike first) is different than what is in the original movie (3 Imps, ambushed). Needless to say, that's where it all goes wrong. Fascinating how everything hinges on just this one value. :)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
I am looking at this game again. For one thing it would be nice to get this in FCEUX fm2 format. Also, I have some ideas but they are probably small.
Mainly I was looking at the random numbers list:
AE D0 38 8A ED 60 DB 72 5C 59 27 D8 0A 4A F4
34 08 A9 C3 96 56 3B F1 55 F8 6B 31 EF 6D 28 AC
41 68 1E 2A C1 E5 8F 50 F5 3E 7B B7 4C 14 39 12
CD B2 62 8B 82 3C BA 63 85 3A 17 B8 2E B5 BE 20
CB 46 51 2C CF 03 78 53 97 06 69 EB 77 86 E6 EA
74 0C 21 E2 40 D4 5A 3D C7 2B 94 D5 8C 44 FD EE
D2 43 00 BB FA C6 1D 98 A0 D3 54 5F 5E DC A8 00
AF 93 A1 E1 6C 04 DE B6 D7 36 16 C5 C8 C4 E4 0F
02 AB E8 33 99 73 11 6A 09 67 F3 FF A2 DF 32 0E
1F 0D 90 25 64 75 B3 65 2F C9 B0 DA 5D 9F EC 29
CE E3 F0 91 7A 58 45 24 1C 47 A4 89 18 2D CC BD
6F 80 F6 81 22 E9 07 70 FB DD AD 35 A6 61 B4 A3
FE B1 30 4B 15 48 6E 4F 5B 13 9C 83 92 01 C2 19
7F 1A 1B 71 B9 3F 4E 9B BF 9E 87 0B 10 57 F2 26
79 9A 05 C0 E0 F7 4D 7D CA 52 9D F9 BC AA FC 8D
7E D1 A5 42 E7 D6 76 A7 84 8E 66 7C 23 88 37 49
D9
Since this is the sequence in which the battle RNG picks numbers it is the key to figuring out what is possible. Low numbers get critical hits, 00 and 01 make BANE work and high numbers do high damage.
The game does a hit roll and then a damage roll and repeats for each hit. Early on the best spot to land is 05 for the hit roll and C0 for the damage. That will be a high-damage crit. Later with two hits the best sequence is 01 C2 19 7F. That gives two critical hits and is the only possibility to do so for most weapons.
Critical hit rate is based on the index of the weapon, so later weapons generally have higher crit rates. The hit rating has nothing to do with it.
Anyway, the RNG is cruel in that I can't land on those awesome values in a one-on-one fight. If I could, most fights could be shorter and I could really save time. I am pretty sure it's not worth it to keep another person alive or revive them just to fight a boss. There aren't many boss fights so it's probably close to optimal. That's too bad because I could take out Kraken in 6 turns instead of 10 and more.
So far the most promising idea is to buy a hand axe in Pravoka. The hand axe has one more attack power than short sword and this translates to four more max crit damage. That crosses a threshold that allows me to kill wizards in one hit and Astos in three. I'm pretty sure that's enough to cover the time needed to get it but if luck doesn't work out then it might be close.
Looks like 19 is a critical hit for the Coral, Were, Rune sword but not the Flame/Ice Swords, right? Just trying to make sure I understand this correctly. For flame you're looking for 14 or below? All in Hex, I mean since I'm looking at the rng list.
e: Alright, rewatched the run to remind myself of the route and weapons selection. Dragon Sword is collected and Coral Sword is skipped. Dragon crits at 16 or below, Coral at 19; both have same attack power. Does the extra crit leeway help vs Lich at all?
Then you go to the Ice Cave and pick up the Flame Sword (for Kraken). It has a worse crit% than Coral and Dragon, but more attack power. Since you don't need the Flame against the Eye, is it worth holding off until the Defense sword?
The Defense sword allows for 3 hits at level 8 I think, which is immediately, and criticals at 20 or below. Downside is you have run from 2 extra spiked squares to get it and I think 1 extra trip into your inventory. But you could easily do the waterfall before Kraken.
e2: Otherwise, there's the light axe, which crits on 1D or below, allows 2 hits, has 2 more damage than the Flame and is actually in the sea shrine. It might be an option since the Bane Sword is used for everything afterwards.