I have been looking for improvements to popular games for a long time. Recently, when I tried to do the flagpole glitch at walking speed, andrewg_ came up with the PAL version and also pointed out an useful glitch that only works on that version. I started working on this run as a fun project to take a break from my other projects, which I'm not very motivated to do.
The trick above never got used since I managed to do the flagpole glitch with Mario stuck in front of it, so there was no need to enter a floor (and no need to use a bullet bill in 8-2 either). Later, I also managed to enter the wall in 1-2 which prevented me from continuing on this project for a while. Chances were good that this run would save much time over the NTSC TAS.
I'm not sure about the attitude of people towards this TAS which uses the PAL version in order to save time. I don't think it would be very well-received, but since there's no harm in submitting a finished TAS, here it is!
Since this was only a fun project, I didn't bother much about the 21-frame rule. There is also a lag frame in 8-1 that I couldn't remove. I think it's still a pretty good run. I wanted to make this run a little different than the published TAS and I used some different ways of doing things. Maybe you will like it.
So I will leave this one here. Maybe it can be linked from the published movie.
(I would like TASvideos to change its way of presenting its runs in the future.
See here and here for places where I expressed this. This PAL TAS would be a candidate to put onto a page along with other Super Mario Bros TASes)
adelikat: Claiming for judging. The verdict (either way) will potentially set a precedent for future submissions so I want to handle this one. I hope for lots of votes, comments, and pedantic opinions on this one.
adelikat: Author is improving this movie and some of the possible improvement would have a direct impact on a potential verdict so I am setting this to delayed for now.
mugg: I'm setting this to canceled since I'm not trying to improve this anymore. To my knowledge, klmz is planning to make an improvement so there is no need for this to stay on the workbench.
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
andrewg wrote:
Voting no because when Mario is in Europe he smells.
Don't make me TAS the Australian release now... despite the fact they're the same ROM.
Therefor, PAL Mario is actually a drunk-off-his-ass Australian. He doesn't just smell, he thinks it's a good idea to eat moving mushrooms, he is just that drunk.
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I'm voting yes only because it was an entertaining run overall but I agree that it should not replace the U run. How that's handled, well, good luck. :)
A.C.
******
Sure is SERIOUS BUSINESS in here.
Voting no since the author admitted it wasn't optimal, "Since this was only a fun project, [MUGG] didn't bother much about the 21-frame rule."
When an optimzed PAL run is submitted, then I may decide to participate in this stalemate of a discussion.
Why wait until then? That is just putting of the inevitable.
Because the question is "Should this[/i][/u] movie be published?", as is this particular submission.
But I side with the decision to publish as a separate category, if accepted.
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Makou wrote:
We seem collectively worried that a run like this is somehow less entertaining because of consistent use of the flagpole glitch without enemies. The current run uses such a thing exactly once, in 8-2. 8-3 ends with a "standard" ending, and every other stage that ends in the flagpole... ends with the execution of a different (but similar) glitch every time! That's okay, but somehow this isn't?
Well, I'm trying to think bigger picture than this submission. If this is acceptable wouldn't the warpless be too? That movie has some beautiful solutions in order to get mario in position to do the "walking against the flagpole" glitch. On the E ROM it will regress back to a "runs to the right" TAS like it used to be. That's disappointing.
I'll be honest in that the only thing I hear here is "durr hurr it's faster than my movie".
It's also faster than most other different games' movie on this site.
The J/U and E versions are not the same game even if they look so by some blinded eyes.
Well, I'm trying to think bigger picture than this submission. If this is acceptable wouldn't the warpless be too? That movie has some beautiful solutions in order to get mario in position to do the "walking against the flagpole" glitch. On the E ROM it will regress back to a "runs to the right" TAS like it used to be. That's disappointing.
Unfortunately, I have no more of a solid solution to this than anyone else really does, and the way things have been handled for some time does not help matters, either. The site is a mixed bag of raw speed runs, and "entertaining" runs that happen to be extraordinarily fast.
I don't think you're going to get the solid, one-size-fits-all solution that you're looking for. There is no such thing, unfortunately, since different games in different regions have too many different nuances to apply a single coat of paint to that wall and walk away from it. Per-submission judging, which I believe is already done, is probably the only solution to this matter.
Well, I'm trying to think bigger picture than this submission. If this is acceptable wouldn't the warpless be too? That movie has some beautiful solutions in order to get mario in position to do the "walking against the flagpole" glitch. On the E ROM it will regress back to a "runs to the right" TAS like it used to be. That's disappointing.
The question is what is more important for a TAS: entertainment or speed? I still think that speed should win out unless a very little bit of speed can be sacrificed for a very large amount of entertainment.
I admit I find how the current warpless run sets up the flagpole glitch entertaining, but that's largely because I know that setting up that glitch is necessary for obtaining the shortest time. Especially for a game like SMB, I'd rather watch a movie I knew was optimal (the absolute shortest amount of play) than one marginally more entertaining.
If the only concern is losing the flagpole glitch, I feel obligated to repeat my previous suggestion: have somebody release a glitch-filled playaround for it like there is for the All-Stars version of SMB3. If the fastest run isn't the most entertaining, perhaps it might be better to publish a run purely for the sake of entertainment alongside the fastest run.
As for people who think that this run should only be allowed as a branch to the NTSC version - Why? As I understand it, the site's philosophy is to publish new branches only when they provide a substantial difference from the published runs. The only noticeable differences between a PAL run and a NTSC run are the flagpole glitch and the music. That really doesn't seem like nearly enough of a difference to warrant a new category be made. They don't seem to be enough to prevent the PAL version from obsoleting the NTSC version, either.
PAL SMB vs. NTSC SMB:
Pros:
* Slightly faster acceleration.
* Faster speed per frame allowing more glitch abuses.
* Everything related to subpixels is easier to manipulate.
Cons:
* Generally laggier.
* Slower score tally.
Those depend on the situation:
* Different behavior of Moonwalk glitch: It allows Mario to move while still scrolling the screen (though slower).
Well, if you see TASing speed-oriented runs as an emulator sport, then you should also see that there are rules of such a sport to follow.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
I remember someone in some thread said something to the effect of: If you step back and look at SMB1, is it really that interesting of a game to TAS?
The short answer, IMO, is no. Its an action game with a limited move set, and not a ton of variation in the scenery. However, that said, SMB has the weight of being the single highest selling game of all time, and therefore is being treated and considered differently.
If, for example, Felix the Cat had a different set of glitches in PAL, http://tasvideos.org/738M.html, would people still clamor for a 2nd category? Where will the line be drawn for accepting PAL versions of other games?
The point I am trying to make, is that this run fails to add anything more entertaining to the site. It simply demonstrates the difference between two versions of the same game.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Let me draw attention to another recently rejected run, submitted under similar circumstances where there's no substantial difference in game play between the NTSC runs (and there are several there as well) and the PAL run.
Does that submission warrant revival for publication as a separate branch?
I agree most with the arguments sgrunt has brought up in this thread.
The difference between 50 FPS and 60 FPS is different enough for each game that I'm under the impression that around half of the runs on the site could obsoleted by the PAL version. Calculations are rounded and incremented differently resulting in such things as differing movement speeds (resulting in slight modifications of glitches).
I'm sure 85-95% of the viewers of SMB TASes played either the (U) or (J) version and not the (E) version. It simply isn't the same game most of us purchased, so why feature an alternate version for no substantial reason other than slight calculation differences in the engine.
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I best see this as a strong argument for featuring optimized runs on the site.
Perhaps each game should have 'Featured Runs' and 'Other Runs'
SMB1
Featured: any%
Featured: No warps
Other: -1 ending (of course there would be arguments over whether this gets featured or not)
Other: Walkathon
Other: (E) any%
Other: (E) No warps
Other: (E) Walkathon
Other: Superplay
Unfortunately if this run is accepted (EDIT: primarily for being faster than the (U) version), it would set a precedent for obsoleting a very optimized (U)/(J) version with an unknown level of optimization on the (E) version.
I feel that this either has to be rejected or it needs inserted with a lighter categorization on the site. I think obsoleting the (U) version is a bad choice. If this gets accepted as a separate category I feel Saturn's run needs to go back to the workbench.
Perhaps more discussion is needed on new categorizations of runs.
Voting 'No' unless the site's classification of runs is changed in the future. I think the ultimate decision should make a statement on the choice of categorization instead of just throwing the run aside because it is a few frames suboptimal.
(Sorry this post was a bit unorganized, I wanted to post this quickly before the decision was made about the run.)
Adding to klmz's post, another con (and the main one for me) is the sped up music. It makes it sound like the timer is always below 100, which is annoying.
This should not replace the (U), but I am not opposed to it being published.
Unfortunately if this run is accepted it would set a precedent for obsoleting a very optimized (U)/(J) version with an unknown level of optimization on the (E) version.
I would like to again highlight that if this run manages to get accepted, I will start working on a more serious version.
Also, DMTM contacted me saying he might have found a strategy change. He hasn't explained it further to me yet, though.
I, for starters, I vote no. Because
* The emulasion PAL, is what makes the game very slow, especially when I use the version J / U
* The E version (depending on how HappyLee said) that this version is terrible for all or some
* The glitches of the mast, it is much easier to do thanks to the emulation PAL, or the game version
* I would do everything possible to overcome the klmz mark (4:57.33) in NTSC
Unfortunately if this run is accepted it would set a precedent for obsoleting a very optimized (U)/(J) version with an unknown level of optimization on the (E) version.
Or we could just publish it alongside the other versions.
I know thinking is difficult but please try.
Also, ha ha at "it regresses into walking right again. How disappointing." Yes, because we all know that TASvideos movies are judged based on how fun they are to watch, and a submission which happens to remove entertainment for speed (or whathaveyou) is always rejected. Oh wait.
I'm sure 85-95% of the viewers of SMB TASes played either the (U) or (J) version and not the (E) version.
Well, isn't this a good bit of statistics. :D I was under the impression that at least 1/3 of us here were Europeans, possibly indicating that around 1/3 of SMB watchers have played the European version first.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Uh....since the Pal version is obviosly faster, if this gets accepted, does this mean that every run for the Ness here that doesn't use the Pal version would be obesoleted by a run that does?
I'm sure 85-95% of the viewers of SMB TASes played either the (U) or (J) version and not the (E) version.
Well, isn't this a good bit of statistics. :D I was under the impression that at least 1/3 of us here were Europeans, possibly indicating that around 1/3 of SMB watchers have played the European version first.
