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Posted: 5/27/2010 11:45 AM
Post subject: B.O.B.
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Toothache
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Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
As some of you may know, I've been working on obsoleting the old B.O.B. submissions. There was a genesis version that was rejected last year, and I am using this as the basis of the new version. So far I am 7 levels in, and over 38 seconds ahead, which shows how unoptimised the previous version was. However, with over 50 stages, it isnt a short game. Once I get my home internet access back (should be any time after 3rd June), I can upload some of the notes and current WIP, including a level-by-level frame comparison. Each of the currently completed levels I've managed so far have been improved by as little as 62 frames and as many as 834, but there is still a long way to go. I'm hoping for sub-50 minutes for the whole TAS, but I'll push this as far as it can go. One of the tricks I have found so far is the use of the helicopter remo over grabbing the overhead poles. Using the poles means you move slower than the helicopter, but there are still situations where using the poles are overall faster due to acceleration and so on. I lost 2 frames by picking up helis in the first stage, but immediately saved 6 in that same stage alone with this trick, and it is used in other levels too. So yeah, once I'm back online properly expect a significant update.
Posted: 5/27/2010 2:19 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
For some reason I always enjoyed this game, clunky movement aside. I'm glad to hear you're working on it, and I wish you luck! Why pick the Genesis version, though?
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 5/28/2010 12:51 AM
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Antoids
Joined: 8/27/2009
Posts: 159
Location: California
Oh god yes. I loved to hate this game.
Posted: 6/1/2010 3:46 AM
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mklip2001
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Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Good luck Toothache! For what it's worth, I liked the rejected run from last year, and I'd love to see an improvement!
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Posted: 6/1/2010 9:26 AM
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Toothache
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
Derakon wrote:
For some reason I always enjoyed this game, clunky movement aside. I'm glad to hear you're working on it, and I wish you luck! Why pick the Genesis version, though?
Two main reasons: a) it is faster than the SNES version b) graphically better looking than SNES version That and it is the version I owned when I was a kid. Yes I actually had this game.
Posted: 6/10/2010 4:08 PM
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Toothache
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
World 1 is complete! http://www.mediafire.com/?jutckvij24u 
World 1

Level  Old            New             Saving
1       1476 - 3664    1476 - 3178    +486
2       5321 - 6955    4847 - 6373    +108    
3       8382 - 10316   7804 - 9544    +194 
4      11834 - 14812  11066 - 13910   +134
5      16445 - 18359  15548 - 16636   +826
6      19809 - 23699  18112 - 21452   +520
7      25286 - 27753  23051 - 25456   +62
8      28587 - 33909  26290 - 31233   +379
9      35448 - 36141  32784 - 33411   +66
10     37013 - 39029  34283 - 36158   +141
11     40461 - 43289  37590 - 40201   +17   
12     44685 - 48697  41612 - 45466   +158
13     50286 - 51758  47059 - 48510   +21
14     52539 - 53016  49291 - 49750   +18

Total saving 52 seconds 10 frames (3130 frames)
Posted: 6/10/2010 5:55 PM
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mklip2001
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Joined: 6/23/2009
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Location: Georgia, USA
Nice going Toothache! This looks pretty good so far. I'm glad to see some fist usage. The bosses were pretty awesome too. It's been a while since I've seen last year's submission, so I'm curious: where did the huge savings on World 5 come from? That looked like an especially simple stage. Are your comparisons against last year's run, by the way? If so, how does this compare against the published run?
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Posted: 6/10/2010 6:13 PM
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Toothache
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
The comparisons are indeed from the rejected run from last year, it would be a bit trickier to compare to the SNES run, so I've no idea how much faster I'd be (and it uses different goals anyway, I'm not going for no damage since its damn slow that way) As for stage 5, there was a longer way through that level (rather than falling down in the middle, continue right until the end then head through a small maze). You can pick up some Lightning shot here for the first time, which would save a few frames on the second boss, but it is much quicker to take the earlier path. Inevitably the rejected run did take the Lightning shot route.
Posted: 7/28/2010 8:45 AM
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Toothache
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
I've finally learned the value of subpixels, and saved another 8 frames on the first stage. Guess this means I'm restarting from scratch to see if I can improve stuff even further.
Posted: 9/1/2010 1:17 PM
Post subject: World 1 redone and improved!!
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Toothache
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
World 1 v2!!! 
Level  Old            New v1          New v2          Savings      Total Saving
1       1476 - 3664    1476 - 3178     1476-3170     +494 (+8)     +502
2       5321 - 6955    4847 - 6373     4839-6307     +174 (+66)    +240
3       8382 - 10316   7804 - 9544     7738-9463     +219 (+15)    +234
4      11834 - 14812  11066 - 13910   10989-13785    +182 (+48)    +230
5      16445 - 18359  15548 - 16636   15423-16450    +826 (+61)    +887
6      19809 - 23699  18112 - 21452   17926-21260    +520 (+6)     +526
7      25286 - 27753  23051 - 25456   22861-25244    +62 (+22)     +84
8      28587 - 33909  26290 - 31233   26078-30892    +379 (+129)   +508
9      35448 - 36141  32784 - 33411   32446-33073    +66 (+0)      +66
10     37013 - 39029  34283 - 36158   33945-35779    +141 (+41)    +182
11     40461 - 43289  37590 - 40201   37218-39748    +17 (+81)     +98
12     44685 - 48697  41612 - 45466   41152-44963    +158 (+43)    +201
13     50286 - 51758  47059 - 48510   46556-48010    +21 (+97)     +118
14     52539 - 53016  49291 - 49750   48791-49250    +18 (+0)      +18

Total saving v1: 52 seconds 10 frames (3130 frames)
             v2: 1 minute 4 seconds 54 frames (3894 frames)
Posted: 9/1/2010 2:21 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Over a minute saved already? Niiiiice.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 9/2/2010 2:56 AM
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mklip2001
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Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Wow, I'm definitely looking forward to more of this now. Great job so far!
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Posted: 9/12/2010 4:54 AM
(Edited: 9/13/2010 4:01 AM)
Post subject: World 2 redone and improved!
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Toothache
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
World 2 complete! 
Level  Old              New v2         Saving
1       54057 - 56709    50291-56214   +329
2       58110 - 60059    54026-55716   +259
3       61511 - 63424    57172-58810   +275
4       65000 - 67003    60392-62281   +114
5       68441 - 70740    63724-65655   +368
6       72187 - 76006    67113-70615   +317
7       77469 - 79846    72086-74155   +308
8       81286 - 84725    75603-78663   +379
9       86166 - 89610    80117-83009   +552
10      91147 - 97198    84562-90479   +134
11      97984 - 100522   91265-93477   +326
12     101920 - 103098   94886-95996   +68
13     103997 - 105682   96881-98413   +153
14     107107 - 109306   99842-102008  +33
15     110729 - 111611  103432-104205  +109
16     112531 - 115257  105125-107183  +668
17     116723 - 122596  108673-114151  +395
18     124139 - 125258  115717-116755  +81

World 2 savings: Frames in stage: 1 min 21 seconds 8 frames (4868 frames)
Total in stage savings: 2 mins 26 seconds 2 frames (8762 frames)
Realtime savings: 2 mins 22 seconds 1 frames (8521 frames)
EDIT: World 2 has been updated with an improved boss fight. I'm now another 190 frames ahead of the old World 2 WIP, and got an improvement on every stage to date. World 3 will be tough since it has longer stages on average, so Remo use will be an issue, was struggling towards the end of Stage 2 with that as well. Either way, I won't be put off, and this run will be finished soon, so stay tuned!
Posted: 9/12/2010 8:21 AM
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Jungon
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Player (51)
Joined: 4/2/2009
Posts: 376
Location: Porto Alegre - Brazil
Maybe you're using a different rom version, or a different version of Gens? (I had to search for 9z to see the Phantasy Star 2 WIP around the site) Once I saw a movie desync because the video was recorded with sound turned off o_o
*Jungon*/*Johnnyz* smilie weirdo =P ^^ o.o @__@ +D
Posted: 9/12/2010 2:40 PM
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Toothache
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
I can't see what I'm doing wrong. Both videos were done with Gens 11a, and both use the same ROM ((JUE)[!]). Even made sure it used the right pad type, cos I've had a desync when a pad was set to 6 button type and should be on 3 button type. I don't know what else it could be.
Posted: 9/12/2010 3:44 PM
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Sonikkustar
Skilled player (1328)
Joined: 9/7/2007
Posts: 1354
Location: U.S.
Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021 Sega TASer of 2011 Sega TAS of 2011
It looks like you killed him too early so it took longer to get to the next part of the boss than in the rejected run. Man that sounds weird. >_<
Homepage SVN
Posted: 9/13/2010 4:03 AM
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Toothache
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Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
I have reuploaded the WIP with the improved boss time. I've gone from 109 frames behind on that boss to 81 frames ahead, a saving of 190 frames. Full details are in my previous post.
Posted: 9/13/2010 1:01 PM
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mklip2001
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Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Wow, well done! The REMO usage is definitely the highlight of the run. I was especially a fan of one time where you used a trampoline just so you could start falling with a faster speed afterward (essentially, you used it to do a really high prejump). I'm definitely looking forward to the rest.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Posted: 9/14/2010 3:10 PM
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Sonikkustar
Skilled player (1328)
Joined: 9/7/2007
Posts: 1354
Location: U.S.
Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021 Sega TASer of 2011 Sega TAS of 2011
I got some stuff that might help you in these last levels. These are how many REMOs the rejected run had left in the end of the game: Lightbulb: 1 Shield: 8 Umbrella: 6 Spring: 5 Heli: 3 Bomb: 1 Hope these help in REMO usage.
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Posted: 9/16/2010 9:26 PM
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Toothache
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
Thanks, this will help a bit. Although I'm using Remos a lot more, especially the movement related ones, I've tried to take this into account and make sure I have enough for the essential areas, and use any extras to avoid fall-stun animations and so on when I can. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKRe_yKziDM I also did an encode of the first World, I'll get World 2 up tomorrow.
Posted: 9/17/2010 12:42 AM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Looking good! Though I have to say I like the SNES music better. Oh, well. Did I see a corner boost in the first level?
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 9/17/2010 7:44 AM
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Toothache
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Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
Ah, I'm glad you noticed. There is corner boosting going on in as many places I can get a benefit from it. It was especially tricky to plan them on the jetship stages, since you move so fast. Corner boosting gives you the most boost from the top-rear corner of B.O.B.'s sprite, whether on foot or in the jetship. Bottom-rear corner boosting gives a significantly smaller boost, often just a couple of subpixels.
Posted: 9/23/2010 10:13 AM
(Edited: 9/24/2010 2:35 PM)
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Toothache
Active player (279)
Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
Figure I may as well give an update on my progress: 
World 3

Level  Old                New v2       Saving
1      127509 - 130254  118958-121423  +280
2      131679 - 136218  122860-126416  +983
3      137613 - 139592  127843-129030  +792
4      141139 - 143115  130612-132457  +131
5      144590 - 147170  133935-135939  +576
6      148573 - 151434  137358-140190  -5
7      152334 - 155989  141090-144411  +352
8 more stages to go, and I'm 11562 frames ahead in real time, that's 3 minutes, 12 seconds, 42 frames. Might see sub-54 after all at this rate. Stay tuned! EDIT: Adjusted times to go with current version
Posted: 9/24/2010 10:22 AM
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Toothache
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Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791
Lucky TAS of 2013
I've had a rethink about Stage 6 (first boss of World 3), and redone it so I'm 5 frames slower than the older version. Why? Well, the reason that run had a faster boss was because he'd taken lots of detours to collect the Wave shot, and using this produces a faster kill on the various enemies. Having a more limited amount means I had to find various alternate ways of killing each enemy, which turned out to be slower than using Wave shot, but preserved the few remaining ammo I had for later bosses. tl;dr, I now have 4 ammo for Wave compared to 1, at the cost of 33 frames. This should be enough to deal with the last bosses, and I've got enough Lightning ammo in reserve should I run out. EDIT: On the plus side, I've improved Stage 7 by another 18 frames, so that loss is half covered already.
Posted: 5/9/2014 12:00 PM
Post subject: B.O.B
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martandelus
Player (69)
Joined: 4/17/2014
Posts: 69
I know this ones mentioned and i had my doubts if it can be done due to that awful lag when using remotes, might have been wrong quite a bit. This one is gonna take quite a bit as i'm still studying the best routes to take, got the first few levels done, if you guys can think of anything to improve, i'm all ears. Here's a vid of the first couple of stages i got done anyway, can be done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I0cZngehrM
Nothing to fear but fear itself - Franklin D. Roosevelt
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